[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

As opposed to skillfully charismatic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Naturally charismatic is exactly what he is, some one with high skills isn't naturally charismatic, he's a skillfull speaker, there's a big difference.

It seems like you and I have differeing opinions of Naturally Charismatic... Someone with 6 Dice (7 Charisma; Elf at Maximum Charisma) is Naturally Charismatic... Someone with 20 Dice and no Skill is Augmented out the ass, and it is no longer natural. See the Difference? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Come to me with the Former as a Concept, I would allow it. The latter I would burn and tell you to start over.

[Yerameyahu]

… as opposed to skillfully charismatic. What else would you call it? Unnaturally charismatic? It amounts to the same thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… as opposed to skillfully charismatic. What else would you call it? Unnaturally charismatic? It amounts to the same thing.

No it doesn't... it is augmented... Call it what it is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

'Augmentedly charismatic' doesn't describe the fact that it's based on 'raw talent' instead of practiced skill. 'Naturally charismatic' does. Not that this matters, but I didn't want your error to go uncorrected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

It seems like you and I have differeing opinions of Naturally Charismatic... Someone with 6 Dice (7 Charisma; Elf at Maximum Charisma) is Naturally Charismatic...

So is a Dryad with Charisma 9 and Vomeronasal Organ(13 dice for social skills other then intimidation) and adding Kinecics 3 and Tailored Pheremones 3 to that doesn't make her much less natural and neither does Vocal Range Enhancer.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So is a Dryad with Charisma 9 and Vomeronasal Organ(13 dice for social skills other then intimidation) and adding Kinecics 3 and Tailored Pheremones 3 to that doesn't make her much less natural and neither does Vocal Range Enhancer.

Yes it does, you are using magic and even tech, to get to that point. Admit it. You have augmented yourself, and augmented an already MAGICAL race to boot. Sheesh...

[Yerameyahu]

But not using skill. Naturally charismatic as opposed to skillfully charismatic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just as naturally athletic is opposed to skillfully athletic, or by practice, training, etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But not using skill. Naturally charismatic as opposed to skillfully charismatic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just as naturally athletic is opposed to skillfully athletic, or by practice, training, etc.

It is interesting to me that you refuse to admit that augmentation is a category. Once you have augmented, you are no longer relying upon natural abilities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Indeed I do...

Lets see.

My Current 300+ Point character (Cyberlogician) has 82 Skills, and most of the rolls are from 7-11 Dice. Only in his Hacking and Pistol skills are they generally greater than 12 dice. Hacking/Electronics rolls are at 14-15 Dice, Pistols is at 14 Dice. Situational Modifiers apply of course, and are not included here. Has an Edge of 2 and Bad Luck.

So, you took every skill in the core book including awakened ones, plus 6 additional languages? That's pretty impressive, but where'd you get the BP for it?

My Ganger origin character only has his Piloting Rolls above 10, everything else is 10 or less, generally less (in the 6-9 range). Also a Low Edge (2 or 3, I believe)

I just want to point out that our GM likes to include us all in combat, possibly because he was a DM till recently, or possibly because my last character could only do combat and demolition through combat. I've learned the downside to an overly focused build since then.

I have found that it is often better to offset penalties in some way than it is to just pile on the bonuses. We have also recently begun experimenting with capping bonuses as well, so there is less incentive to just pile on the bonuses. Will let you know how that one works out. I personally do not like it (not that I pile on bonuses willy nilly), but the GM wants to cut down on the craziness of dice pools (not that they are all tha crazy, mind you), and he likes this method. May work, may not. It is in testing.

How did you get 7-11 without piling on bonuses?

All in all, thanks for the input!

[Glyph]

Dice pools don't really have one single point where they are effective. They vary widely in how many successes you typically need for them, and how easy it is to get a high dice pool for them. Combat skills, for instance, tend to need to be high, since there are so many potential negative modifiers for them. On the flip side, it is easy to improve them with augmentation. Social skills are a bit more odd, in that a lower dice pool (12+) can often be effective, but they are the easiest dice pools to boost into the stratosphere. For other skills, lower dice pools can still be effective. Eight dice for pistols is pretty middling, but 8 dice for infiltration is actually decent.

[Whipstitch]

Infiltration vs. Perception is one of my favorite examples of why you need to consider each pool on a case by case basis lest you jump to conclusions. That's because those skills oppose each other but often times go about attaining advantages in different ways. For example, compare a 3 Intuition, 3 Perception guard with Vision Enhancement 3 goggles vs. a 3 Agility, 3 Infiltration burglar with a chameleon suit. Technically speaking the guard is starting out with the larger overall dice pool but the burglar actually has the advantage given that chameleon suits work by penalizing the observer rather than buffing the wearer's pools.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, you took every skill in the core book including awakened ones, plus 6 additional languages? That's pretty impressive, but where'd you get the BP for it?

Nope... Only have about 2/3 of the skills in the Corebook. I have 21 or so (can't remember, do not have sheet with me) Knowledge skills. I have no Awakened skills, nor Emergent Skills. I do have about 4 natural languages. I did not count the dozen or so languages that I have access to on Lingusofts. As for BP, a good chunk of my Karma went towards those skills. When you are neither Awakened, nor Emergent, you tend to have a lot of Karma for skills.

I just want to point out that our GM likes to include us all in combat, possibly because he was a DM till recently, or possibly because my last character could only do combat and demolition through combat. I've learned the downside to an overly focused build since then.

We are also all included in combat, and even my ganger is still effective with his 9 dice or so of pistols (Stat 5, skill 2, specialty; he uses a ruger super warhawk). None of my builds are overly focused, due to how I spread the skills around. Of course, rarely do I see a DP of 20 either. My Cyberlogician has a DP 20 with Bonuses for Perception, assuming no penalties. I have a climber with a DP of 20 also (Climbing obviously). Those are really the only two characters I can think of with a DP that high.

How did you get 7-11 without piling on bonuses?

All in all, thanks for the input!

Well, he is a Cyberlogician (Hacker for Yerameyahu's benefit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) with 0.7 Essence remaining, and he is crammed full of mostly inobvious 'ware. His Agility is High (8 ), Reaction is High (9), and Logic is High (7); Intuition, Body and Willpower are all 5. Skills range from 1-3, with a few 4's and three 5's. Almost Every skill is specialized (yep, even the Knowledge skills). I have a list of Skills still to purchase, and I really want to have all my skills at a minimum of 3, then I want to raise them all to a 4. Eventually, I may even get one of the rank 5 skills to a 6. Takes time, to be sure. He has been a lot of fun to play. Her is currently semi-retired for now. Only coming out to play when the big boys are needed.

My Pleasure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Irion]

@longbowrocks

I just want to point out that our GM likes to include us all in combat, possibly because he was a DM till recently, or possibly because my last character could only do combat and demolition through combat. I've learned the downside to an overly focused build since then.

10 dices in combat (may be another 2 for smartlink) are the amount of dices a marine would roll. And I guess marines can fight...

Of course if your GM tends to drop force 8 to 10 spirits on your head you need at least 20 dices to shoot things to even get a minimal chance to hurt such a beast.

But then dropping Force 8 spirits is kind of abusing the rules anyway....

@Whipstitch

Infiltration vs. Perception is one of my favorite examples of why you need to consider each pool on a case by case basis lest you jump to conclusions. That's because those skills oppose each other but often times go about attaining advantages in different ways. For example, compare a 3 Intuition, 3 Perception guard with Vision Enhancement 3 goggles vs. a 3 Agility, 3 Infiltration burglar with a chameleon suit. Technically speaking the guard is starting out with the larger overall dice pool but the burglar actually has the advantage given that chameleon suits work by penalizing the observer rather than buffing the wearer's pools.

So the guard switches to infra red and gets all his boni but gets also to ignore the chamlion suite.
Perception versus stealth is a good example for boni running away and one side beeing (if start rolling without any additional thresholds) overpowered like hell.
This is where a GM should really acount for the surroundings.
The next problem is, that a perception test only accounts for one sence. (So the GM has to determin if you see, hear or smell the other guy)
And thats not easy because the modifiers for each are quite different.

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, Perception applies to all senses at once (I think that's what you're saying?). So the GM does indeed have to translate that roll into your various bonuses and penalties, which is a pain.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
Does not work this way. Think about it. (It works if there are NO augmentations for special sences in play)
Or you just do not apply them. But than chamelion suit would not apply either.

Your are correct I guess too it was intended that way, but it does not work.

Lets just try some Sam looking for his cat:
Olifactor factory, cyber eyes (Perception +2) and cyberears (Perception +3), Intuition 3 and Perception 3 with spec. on hearing.

Lets assume the cat is not "talking".
So hearing a cat would be at least a threshold of 4.
Seeing a cat would be easier so about 3.
Smelling a cat. Hell no. Maybe 5.
(Well, maybe the cat could also make a infiltration roll against the hearing but of course not against the smell. If she is doing it against visual perception is arguable.)

[Whipstitch]

@Whipstitch

So the guard switches to infra red and gets all his boni but gets also to ignore the chamlion suite.

It was just a hypothetical in which not every modification is being used. That's because my goal was to demonstrate that sometimes skills and niches are supported in ways other than simply adding a couple more dice to your pool, something which you yourself more or less just pointed out as well. Infiltration and Perception are my favorite examples not because they are always balanced but because there is an obvious measures and countermeasures dynamic involved that improves your chances in ways other than just giving you an entire brick of dice to toss around. Infiltrators use tricks like chameleon suits, cover of darkness and thermal dampening not to increase their own pool but to hopefully penalize the opposition. Meanwhile, observers use a combination of dice pool bonuses and alternate senses to counteract or outright ignore some types of penalties. So even a pretty skilled runner may be sitting at 12 dice in infiltration-- most of his tools simply doesn't increase that pool directly. Contrast that with the dice pools a Face can pack-- in a post emotitoy world a character with 12 dice in a seduction test may just be some randy clubber with a Moodwyrm.

[Irion]

I got it. I just wanted to point out, that this area is broken. (The Problem are the alternative sences.)

[Faraday]

Smelling a cat. Hell no. Maybe 5.
(Well, maybe the cat could also make a infiltration roll against the hearing but of course not against the smell. If she is doing it against visual perception is arguable.)

Actually, an olfactory booster works as a chemical analyzer. Smelling people with one only takes a threshold of 3. (2 if they have tailored pheremones) You'll also know that it's a cat and that it's *your cat*.

Granted, you'll only notice it's presence with 1 hit, knowing it's more than that will be more difficult.

[Irion]

Actually, an olfactory booster works as a chemical analyzer. Smelling people with one only takes a threshold of 3. (2 if they have tailored pheremones) You'll also know that it's a cat and that it's *your cat*.

Yes. And for that you only get the rating of the booster. So thank you for proving my point.

[Yerameyahu]

Irion, all relevant forms of Perception definitely work at once, unless *possibly* the player specifies. Usually, only one matters, because it's the easiest. There's nothing in the rules about declaring what kind of vision you're using, or hearing, or smell. For Observe in Detail, a GM might focus on one sense, but even that action doesn't specify by RAW.

If you're talking about Sensors (not Senses), then a Sensor test technically uses whatever sensors you want all at once (again, when relevant). Again, usually only the 'easiest' one matters; if you spot him visually, you don't care to check on smelling.

Yes, this means there are multiple thresholds. Poor GM.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
So how do you add up the modifiers?

You can't add up visiual, audio and all the other boni just together.
Or you would need to add all the thresholds together.

Just think of an example and you will see, that it can not work.


Lets take the infiltration approach.
Watcher has: Visionenhancement 3, Audio enhancement 2, Thermal vision, Low light vision
Infiltrator has: Chamelion suit, Concealment 4, Thermal damping 2
Situation: Cover, partial light, Thermal Smoke (may be from some exhaust pipes), concrete (as floor) and partial cover. Oh and lets add some background noise from heavy machinery at work to that.

[Yerameyahu]

As I said twice, you have to do it separately. It's a huge pain, obviously (as I also said twice already). But when you roll Perception for your players' characters and decide that they don't see the ninjas sneaking up on them, they're going to be pissed when you admit you didn't bother to check if they *heard* them.

Typically, one sense is obviously the most appropriate or effective. Typically, this is sight (and depending on Visibility). But, it's not always, and there's no reason to turn off all the other senses arbitrarily. The majority of Perception isn't even deliberate. It represents your total ability to notice things (anything).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Yerameyahu
So how do you add up the modifiers?

You can't add up visiual, audio and all the other boni just together.
Or you would need to add all the thresholds together.

Just think of an example and you will see, that it can not work.


Lets take the infiltration approach.
Watcher has: Visionenhancement 3, Audio enhancement 2, Thermal vision, Low light vision
Infiltrator has: Chamelion suit, Concealment 4, Thermal damping 2
Situation: Cover, partial light, Thermal Smoke (may be from some exhaust pipes), concrete (as floor) and partial cover. Oh and lets add some background noise from heavy machinery at work to that.

Easy...

You roll your base (Smallest) pool, usually just the Perception Pool, with a single roll...
Add dice for visual Mods, tally additional success to base for vision Thresholds
Add dice Aural Mods, tally additional successs to base for hearing Thresholds
Same for Smell, if using Smell...
Etc...

I tend to use different collored add dice for each Sense, and then just add hits to the base pool hits when prompted...
At that point you have all the thresholds you require, at your fingertips, if they matter. Easy Peasy

Or, just tell the character to roll the relevant Sense with the easiest threshold, and allow the character's player to ask for additional rolls based upon other senses, if they would possibly apply. Again, Easy Peasy

[ggodo]

~eh~
Maybe I have a skewed view of "successful". I build characters to have a very high success rate in what they do. That is, when I'm not using my logic 1 troll's 6 edge on every other test to prove to my team that 1 edge is a waste.

I have tried so hard to get people to use their Edge or put points into it. they seem to forget it's there.

You use skills with fewer dice? Maybe our hacker was just unlucky, but we almost had to scrape him off the pavement every meet (electronic pavement, in the matrix).

Well, that last one was designed for two hackers, and our tech seems to roll way below average. I include everyone in combat because everyone always seems to be there when the fight starts, and it's easier to keep track of how everyone's doing things simultaneously if it's all in combat turns.