Spy Games now available for electronic download, print pre-order, Does Ghostwalker really eat spies? Options

[Grinder]

Very cool review, hermit - and it's right on how I feel about Spy Games. The quality is ok, even though there are some minor fuck-ups and inconstencies (mostly the curfew, Denver being an hotspot of global politics, and the overly stereotype-ish descriptions of the PCC, Ute, and UCAS inhabitants), and most of the design decisions I can live with. Artwork is fairly good, apart from the second rate full-page illustrations showing Ghostwalkers attack.

[Nath]

You didn't think the Princes were just going to let a the uppity Democracy-Crazed Mob take over without a fight, did you?

They lived for one hundred centuries to do nothing but ruling Oregon. A country with a GDP on par with Finland. And there's half a dozen of them sharing power, with a great dragon watching. If you ask me, they should be kicking themselves in the head repeatedly in shame for such a miserable waste of their immortality.

At least until someone finally starts fleshing up some plot about the reason they wanted to control Crater Lake so badly.

[Fatum]

Just a quickie about the Russian agencies mentioned.
First, I just love how the UGB, the counter-intelligence agency, is under Intelligence, while the GRU, the military intelligence, is under Counter-Intelligence (and the SVR is nowhere to be found).
Second, the write-ups are really sub-par, not adding anything of value to what SoA already had, yet coming with ridiculous hurr-durr anti-techno agenda mentioned. Hell, the UGB's ex-chief director is the General Secretary now! Surely that must have had some impact - but nope, nothing mentioned, only the silliness that makes you wonder how the agencies throwing away effective tools are in the business still...

[Critias]

Just a quickie about the Russian agencies mentioned.
First, I just love how the UGB, the counter-intelligence agency, is under Intelligence, while the GRU, the military intelligence, is under Counter-Intelligence (and the SVR is nowhere to be found).

I'll admit that at times it was difficult to figure which side of the fence some agencies went. I ended up calling "dibs" on the UGB (which is responsible for both intelligence and counterintelligence work, both within Russia and outside of it) for my chapter largely because Thorn's section was a broad strokes look at the "big names." Because the GRU is too big to be left out of the book entirely, we wedged them into the CI chapter instead.

Second, the write-ups are really sub-par, not adding anything of value to what SoA already had, yet coming with ridiculous hurr-durr anti-techno agenda mentioned.

I'm sorry you don't like the write-ups, but I want to mention that the "ridiculous hurr-durr anti-techno agenda" is something that's affected every agency in some way, and we tried to mention it when and where we could (while trying not to belabor the point). Part of the anti-Technomancer backlash in the setting as a whole comes from the fact that some of the string-pullers in the setting are scared shitless of the fact that there's a chunk of not-quite-realspace out there where everything, ever, can be found.

Different agencies have reacted to that in different ways (some are continuing to embrace technology but their nations are actively persecuting technomancers, some are going back to "old school" methods, whatever), but it's not like we were out to solely pick on the Russians with this one. The existence of the Resonance realms was something pointed out to all of us would-be writers as Kind Of A Big Deal ™ in the very first project specs for Spy Games.

Hell, the UGB's ex-chief director is the General Secretary now! Surely that must have had some impact - but nope, nothing mentioned, only the silliness that makes you wonder how the agencies throwing away effective tools are in the business still...

That was added as a direct continuation of the fight over the General Secretary spot, mentioned in SotA 2064 and Shadows of Asia. For about ten years now (Shadowrun time) there've been faction of the Russian government and Saeder Krupp jockeying for position and trying to take the GS's seat. Because the chapter was on Tradecraft (and not Russian politics) I couldn't delve into terrific detail, but it was my hope that folks would see the sudden change in major players as a bit of a surprise.

Where SoA mentioned Kamendin as a strong contender and Baichik as SK's choice (with Romanov stuck between loyalty to his old mentor and loyalty to SK for their continued support), I put Romanov right into the General Secretary's seat, and a former SK hitman squarely into leading the UGB itself. It was part compromise, part betrayal: Kamendin's not mentioned (so folks can choose to have him as alive or dead or vengeful or vanished as they want), Romanov got the seat instead of either of his rivals, but SK still has a man who might be theirs (Kalinsky may or may not be SK's creature, as opposed to a loyal Russian) heading up the UGB.

As far as "throwing away effective tools goes," Kamendin himself was specifically stated to have been the head of the UGB before stepping down to pursue political power (way back in 2053). Why couldn't Romanov have done the same, twenty years later?

I had things fall together like I did partially to continue the struggle started in those older books, and partly to monkeywrench them -- it has been about nine years (in-universe) since SotA 2064 and SoA came out; things progressed with their storylines and NPCs in mind, but not necessarily in the direction those old shadowtalkers thought they'd go.

*shrugs* All in all, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy that section of the book, but we were doing what we could with the word count we had. The chapters had a lot of agencies to cover (or create/introduce), and we did what we could to cover them all and hit on some of the major points, to give GMs some ideas, etc, etc. I appreciate the feedback, at any rate, and I hope you liked the rest of Spy Games better than you seemed to like these snippets.

[Fatum]

That was added as a direct continuation of the fight over the General Secretary spot, mentioned in SotA 2064 and Shadows of Asia. For about ten years now (Shadowrun time) there've been faction of the Russian government and Saeder Krupp jockeying for position and trying to take the GS's seat. Because the chapter was on Tradecraft (and not Russian politics) I couldn't delve into terrific detail, but it was my hope that folks would see the sudden change in major players as a bit of a surprise.

Where SoA mentioned Kamendin as a strong contender and Baichik as SK's choice (with Romanov stuck between loyalty to his old mentor and loyalty to SK for their continued support), I put Romanov right into the General Secretary's seat, and a former SK hitman squarely into leading the UGB itself. It was part compromise, part betrayal: Kamendin's not mentioned (so folks can choose to have him as alive or dead or vengeful or vanished as they want), Romanov got the seat instead of either of his rivals, but SK still has a man who might be theirs (Kalinsky may or may not be SK's creature, as opposed to a loyal Russian) heading up the UGB.

That'd all be mighty fine if not for the fact that Sixth World Almanac states the following:

Russia is ruled by the National Supreme Soviet (NSS), an elected body similar to Parliament in Great Britain.  e General Secretary, currently Viktor Kamendin, is the elected head of the NSS and dictates national policy as it relates to national security and foreign relations.

As far as "throwing away effective tools goes," Kamendin himself was specifically stated to have been the head of the UGB before stepping down to pursue political power (way back in 2053). Why couldn't Romanov have done the same, twenty years later?

What I meant by "effective tools" are technomancers.
Let's go with a RL example: when electronic computers appeared, they rendered many of the encryption methods used before that obsolete. Yet no intelligence service had "anti-computer agenda" - on the contrary, everyone adopted the tech as soon as possible to get all the edge it could give them against the opposition. That's just the way that field of work operates - you fall behind, you lose. Why should technomancers be any different?

[Grinder]

Why should technomancers be any different?

Because technomancers are scary and shit? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CanRay]

Because technomancers are scary and shit? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Sorry, I was busy counting my corporate scrip from turning in the last batch of Technomancers... You were saying?

[Critias]

That'd all be mighty fine if not for the fact that Sixth World Almanac states the following:

A lot can change in a couple of years (which is how long it's been, in-universe, since 6WA was written). Heck, look at the time held in office by guys like Bulganin and Malenkov, IRL.

Note that in Spy Games I say Romanov is "undoubtedly going to move himself into" the seat of power. Like I said, it's a chapter on tradecraft, not Russia as a setting, so the details of the shift are (purposefully, at this point) vague: Kamendin could still be alive, the details for why or how he got ousted aren't mentioned, whether he's alive or dead, or in fact even if Romanov actually pulls it off. If folks are playing high-stakes espionage games in Russia it doesn't get much cooler than a continued tangle of power around the General Secretary, the continued inclusion of Saeder Krupp as an attempted kingmaker means more traditional corp involvement for company-oriented games...It's all mentioned there as a plot hook for those that want it, and it's just some fluff (with a wetwork pro taking over the agency, potentially) to keep the UGB lethal and dangerous for those that don't.

I'm sorry that a these lines of potential plot hook and metaplot advancement aren't to your liking, and I hope you enjoyed the rest of the chapter better, but I'm really not sure what else to tell you.

What I meant by "effective tools" are technomancers.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but you changed gears pretty quickly and I just misread it.

Let's go with a RL example: when electronic computers appeared, they rendered many of the encryption methods used before that obsolete. Yet no intelligence service had "anti-computer agenda" - on the contrary, everyone adopted the tech as soon as possible to get all the edge it could give them against the opposition. That's just the way that field of work operates - you fall behind, you lose. Why should technomancers be any different?

Again, it's not like it was only Russia that's been affected by this. A good chunk of the Tradecraft chapter (not just the write-ups on agencies) discusses this anti-Technomancer mindset, but it's not like Spy Games introduced it -- and, again, I'm sorry it's not to your liking, but freelancers write what freelancers are told to write. I'm sorry that their paranoia over the Resonance realms rubbed you the wrong way, but (personally) I think it was a decent way to keep the entire book from just being "Mind Probe + Control Thoughts + Technomancer = all espionage, evar!" Having some agencies stronger or weaker on specific magical or technological fronts allows a way to provide some flavor to the various areas an espionage campaign might be set in, various enemies espionage characters might face, or various backgrounds an espionage character might have; I hope you don't feel we were picking on the Russians in particular, is all I'm saying. That wasn't our intent.

[Fatum]

Because technomancers are scary and shit? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Uh, nukes aren't scary enough for them not to be used; yet technos are? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

A lot can change in a couple of years (which is how long it's been, in-universe, since 6WA was written). Heck, look at the time held in office by guys like Bulganin and Malenkov, IRL.

The question for those two would be - did they hold any real power? :3
And anyway, whether I like the development with Romanov or not (and frankly, it's not like I do too much, minding that the role SK played in Poland kinda limited its influence, or at least put it on par with Evo in Russia, if System Failure is to be believed), again, ex-chief of the UGB is the General Secretary, surely that must have had some impact? I don't know, like increased funding, returning political officers back to the UGB where they have always belonged from the GRU? Just a mention that it's now better supplied than before, when the Army guys were at power?

Note that in Spy Games I say Romanov is "undoubtedly going to move himself into" the seat of power. Like I said, it's a chapter on tradecraft, not Russia as a setting, so the details of the shift are (purposefully, at this point) vague: Kamendin could still be alive, the details for why or how he got ousted aren't mentioned, whether he's alive or dead, or in fact even if Romanov actually pulls it off. If folks are playing high-stakes espionage games in Russia it doesn't get much cooler than a continued tangle of power around the General Secretary, the continued inclusion of Saeder Krupp as an attempted kingmaker means more traditional corp involvement for company-oriented games...It's all mentioned there as a plot hook for those that want it, and it's just some fluff (with a wetwork pro taking over the agency, potentially) to keep the UGB lethal and dangerous for those that don't.

Of course, no arguing about plot hooks. It's just that after reading the description of the agency in SoA, SG doesn't add that much. Yes, I understand that the word count is to blame, and that most readers of SG aren't too likely to have read SoA to begin with. Still, as I said in my original comment, it just doesn't add valuable info to what we know already, except for the technophobia.

Again, it's not like it was only Russia that's been affected by this. A good chunk of the Tradecraft chapter (not just the write-ups on agencies) discusses this anti-Technomancer mindset, but it's not like Spy Games introduced it -- and, again, I'm sorry it's not to your liking, but freelancers write what freelancers are told to write. I'm sorry that their paranoia over the Resonance realms rubbed you the wrong way, but (personally) I think it was a decent way to keep the entire book from just being "Mind Probe + Control Thoughts + Technomancer = all espionage, evar!"

Okay, I agree that mind-reading and technos are a problem for the traditional-minded spies. But, you know, nukes are a problem for traditional-minded generals, yet still somehow it's not like any major world powers went without them (despite constantly seeking the ways to reliably neutralize those of the opposite side). Saying "they're not using the most effective tools available because of their bigotry" is really pretty much calling them incompetent.

Having some agencies stronger or weaker on specific magical or technological fronts allows a way to provide some flavor to the various areas an espionage campaign might be set in, various enemies espionage characters might face, or various backgrounds an espionage character might have;

And what precisely the strong points of the agency that does the following are?

Between the Matrix and magic, they are basically fighting the future.

And if there aren't any, why are they still in the biz?

I hope you don't feel we were picking on the Russians in particular, is all I'm saying. That wasn't our intent.

No doubt about that.

[Nath]

A lot can change in a couple of years (which is how long it's been, in-universe, since 6WA was written).

The last event featured in Sixth World Almanac is on November 10, 2072. Spy Games Jackpoint login page reads May 19, 2073. Sunshine comment on page 25 was posted on May 17, 2073, and the new item page 105 is March 12, 2073 (the first Dr. Cross memo, page 154, reads November 27, 2073, but I think it's a typo since the two following ones are dated January 4 and 5 of 2073).

So it would be 6 months rather than 2 years. That's still enough time for an election I guess.

[Fatum]

Oh, and before I forget, a side note with nitpicking.
Sasha is not a name, despite the claims in the book. Alexander is. Or you could as well call Nixon Dick, and the Queen Lizzy.
Also, I don't believe there's anything indicating Russia is a federation in SR anywhere in canon sources. At least SoA and 6WA call it just "Russia".

[Critias]

Oh, and before I forget, a side note with nitpicking.
Sasha is not a name, despite the claims in the book. Alexander is. Or you could as well call Nixon Dick, and the Queen Lizzy.

Yes, we're knee-deep in nitpicking here, for sure. *sigh* But I'll try to address it, since you're pointing it out, and since it's either this or I actually go back to work on a term paper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

While I'm aware Sasha is more commonly just a diminutive form of Alexander (or Alexandra, for that matter), it can still be an actual name. It's not nearly as commonly listed as a formal name, but it does happen from time to time (more commonly elsewhere in Eastern Europe than in Russia itself, as I understand it, but it still happens). I chose to use it here, for this guy, as a tongue-in-cheek reference to a real-life CIA/Cold War mole, but it is a real name even if it's not one you like.

[hobgoblin]

Heh, i know of a German tech blogger that goes by that name.

[Fatum]

Yes, we're knee-deep in nitpicking here, for sure. *sigh* But I'll try to address it, since you're pointing it out, and since it's either this or I actually go back to work on a term paper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

While I'm aware Sasha is more commonly just a diminutive form of Alexander (or Alexandra, for that matter), it can still be an actual name. It's not nearly as commonly listed as a formal name, but it does happen from time to time (more commonly elsewhere in Eastern Europe than in Russia itself, as I understand it, but it still happens). I chose to use it here, for this guy, as a tongue-in-cheek reference to a real-life CIA/Cold War mole, but it is a real name even if it's not one you like.

Uh, until a I see a Russian passport with "Sasha" in the First Name field (or at least read about someone actually named as such), sorry, I find that hard to believe. I've met my share of weirdly named people (and a bunch of people named Alexander), but having a affectionate diminutive name registered as the first name officially is just something I doubt Russian bureaucracy would allow, if anything.

[Critias]

While I'm well aware of your geographic location (especially in regards to a conversation like this one, regarding naming conventions), your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. It may not be a popular name, a name you like, or terribly obvious when it's an actual name instead of an diminutive, but to continue arguing that the name does not exist just seems kind of silly, perhaps even petty.

These people would all disagree with you. Yes, some of them are named Alexander, but not all of them are. The name might not be wildly popular, and you're certainly still free to dislike that I used it, but it is a name.

[CanRay]

It'd be like debating if "Ray" is a name until you see it on a passport. It's not common, but it is out there.

Funny part is, I use my full name, every culture claims it as it's own, and asks if I'm a "Brother/Cousin" (Another member of the culture.). It comes from the Irish part of my family (Which also has a little German in it, as if we weren't angry/stubborn/aggressive/drinking enough.).

[Fatum]

While I'm well aware of your geographic location (especially in regards to a conversation like this one, regarding naming conventions),

It's not like it's right there under my avatar or anything...

your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. It may not be a popular name, a name you like, or terribly obvious when it's an actual name instead of an diminutive, but to continue arguing that the name does not exist just seems kind of silly, perhaps even petty.

And the reason for that would be how often Russian affectionate diminutive names are mistaken for full names by English-speakers (see, for example, this for a glaring example).
Making such a mistake in a Shadowrun book would, of course, only perpetuate the tradition established by Rassily Romanov, Il Moliniya, Dzhermiya Ogurznev and the like.

These people would all disagree with you. Yes, some of them are named Alexander, but not all of them are. The name might not be wildly popular, and you're certainly still free to dislike that I used it, but it is a name.

Oh, and who of those people are both Russian in origin and not Alexander (-re, -ra) by full name, hm?

[Grinder]

Fatum, we got it, ok?

[Mäx]

Oh, and who of those people are both Russian in origin and not Alexander (-re, -ra) by full name, hm?

Sasha Pivovarova is, at least as far as i can tell.

[Fatum]

Fatum, we got it, ok?

Didn't seem like it, but well, whatever. It's not like it matters after all those errors already in canon I mentioned, and it's not like this is the problem with the book, so yeah.

Sasha Pivovarova is, at least as far as i can tell.

Nope. Answered in PM not to perpetuate the topic.

[Grinder]

Didn't seem like it, but well, whatever. It's not like it matters after all those errors already in canon I mentioned, and it's not like this is the problem with the book, so yeah.

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited.

[Critias]

Fatum, I'm really not sure what else you want me to say. I've acknowledged in-thread that it's an uncommon name. I specifically commented in-text to show that it was an uncommon name (basically saying "Yeah, we know it's rare" right there in the sentence where he's named). I've acknowledged that it's more rare in Russia than elsewhere in Eastern Europe. I've explained exactly why I picked the name I did. I've provided a link that says it's an uncommon -- but possible -- name, and I said so right when I posted it. You don't like the name, and I get that, but your continued insistence that the name can not exist just baffles me.

I'm sorry previous writers have misnamed people with what seem to be genuine typos, but that's out of my hands; once someone is named, I've got to call 'em by the same name that's been in previous books.

[Grinder]

And now all move to discuss maybe another part of the book, hm?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And now all move to discuss maybe another part of the book, hm?

So, does Turbo Bunny finally shows if her rack is natural or not?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, does Turbo Bunny finally shows if her rack is natural or not?

Mmmmmmm... Turbo Bunny..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)