Yakut Shuffle: questions, ideas, criticism Options

[NeoJudas]

First, it's established that metahuman hate did not rock Russia as hard as many nations (which made Vladivostok a safe haven for the Japanese metas, prompting a massive exile, for example).

Did not rock it, that is not the same as effecting it. I would like to ask you, a native, what is the current level of Racism/Classism in Russian now? What's it like? How can we use the real foundation and extrapolate it into something more fitting and realistic?

Second, have you ever wondered why the Siberia is so sparsely populated, except for the southern edge? The answer is really simple: those lands are extremely inhospitable. Half of them are tundra, with all the vibrancy of reindeer moss over permafrost. Half of the rest are swamps. The climate is extreme continental, with winters easily as cold as -50, and summers as hot as +45 easily. Soils are poor, and vegetation period extremely short (why do you think taiga is made up of conifers, not leaf-bearing trees?) And let's of course not forget the swarms of midge that ignore any known repellents.
Which is why the locals mostly survive on fishing, hunting and nomadic deer herding- none of those capable of supporting a dense population.

Nothing new to me here. The +45C part is new to me as those numbers nearly do not exist in Russian by the major information sources east of the Urals.

Both Yakutsk and Magadan are cities built on permafrost, which means taking pains to anchor the foundations of the building to the deep permafrost which won't shift during the summer, all the while ensuring that same foundation does not melt the permafrost itself. Constructing infrastructure runs into similar problems. Which is why housing and feeding millions will be at the very least extremely problematic, especially with metahumans or metahuman tech limited to the metahuman zone. You say they'd settle along the southern border - but there are border skirmishes there, which in my opinion prevents any kind of large-scale building projects...

I was not aware Magadan was on permafrost, but that would explain readily the scale and size issues. I am aware of all the engineering restraints regarding permafrost however. Alaska and Northern Canada have all the same issues. And I do not disagree with the problems that all the constructive restraints might have had before (real world).

I do however want to point out likely factors that led to the detailing of Russian/Yakut/Siberia, etc.... the way that it has been. Lack of Real Knowledge combined with a Lack of Real Desire to give any form of detailing. It is the same problem all the First and Second edition "location books" have. There was no large working group interested in real details or extrapolations into fiction from reality for those parts of the world. The reasons for those decisions are many, and only because of the expansion of communication by way of the Internet now can we begin to really get a grasp on these issues and perhaps come up with stuff that is more acceptable (aka, "fitting to the 'belief' of the game world").

I could go into a *HUGE* rant here about the lack of connectivity in what I would call "Acceptable Extrapolation" in fact with regards to how did "this in the real world become that in the game world". It is so obvious that the "coolness factor" would always win out in the decisions. Never really taking the down-the-road problems it would create into fuller consideration.

But anyway, that's that point from my view of things.

Now back to resolving issues such as "where did 19 million people come from and how do we feed them?"

[Fatum]

Nath, English has no reason to be the corps' language either, other than the game being developed for the English-speaking auditory. English-speaking powers in SR take the place roughly equivalent to... well, not even Spanish-speakers of today, more like French-speakers. That is, sure, they have solid economies, but nothing out of the ordinary among the developed nations. English might remain the lingua franca in NorthAm, where the NAN might need one, but minding that the local economical powrhouse is Pueblo, and the previous story they share with UCAS, I wouldn't be sure even about that.

Now, the more I read the SoA, the more surprised I get. Transcaucasian federation - is it there because nobody wants to bother with transcaucasian problems? I mean, Armenians and Azeri hate each others' guts, and Georgians and Azeri haven't ever been on the best of terms either. Minding that mostly the Gergians and the Azeri get the profits from oil, why aren't they locked in a civil war like in RL? Why are they even a single state to begin with?
Same goes for Turkestan: the Uzbeks are universally hated in the region, and a few other peoples openly despise each other. How have they come to live together, simply so that a Western reader did not have to memorize a few different -stan's? If they build prosperity of a whole country on the New Silk Road, half of which is going over the territory of other nations, why are those other nations not mentioned to benefit from it at all, much less this greatly?
Ukraine not only being a highly successful state, but actually one to compete and win easily against Russia? Fgsfds

[Fatum]

Did not rock it, that is not the same as effecting it. I would like to ask you, a native, what is the current level of Racism/Classism in Russian now? What's it like? How can we use the real foundation and extrapolate it into something more fitting and realistic?

We know that SR Russia is a nationalist state. Actually, unlike the real thing, it's not even a federation, for all I know.
As for the real deal, I guess it depends on your outlook. Traditionally, as far as I understand, Russia is seen from the West as a highly racist and nationalist, despite, you know, never having racial segregation, slavery, or apartheid. This outlook is reflected, for example, in SoA.
As far as I understand, a lot of Russian perception of others (and self, naturally) is based on stereotypes. Just as Russians are seen as lazy and disorderly, but stoic and capable when it comes to a single grand effort, Germans are seen as industrious and order-loving, Chechens as hot-tempered and prone to fits of violence, and so on. Speeking in generalizations based on these stereotypes, even when highly negative, is mostly seen as acceptable or at least tolerated. However, when it comes to personal relations, I do not think those stereotypes change anything but the initial expectations much: so, say, a Chechen university student might face quite a bit of coldness from his fellows until he shows himself equally capable and willing to engage in civil relations, unlike what is stereotypically expected.

Nothing new to me here. The +45C part is new to me as those numbers nearly do not exist in Russian by the major information sources east of the Urals.

Well, +45 might not be the norm, but Yakutsk, for example, averages +25,5 in July, and the highest recorded July average is 38,5C.
If there's nothing new to you there, you should be able to see why fitting dozens of millions of people upon those lands without highly developed tech might be problematic at best, and why people wold sooner move among the established population centers.

I was not aware Magadan was on permafrost, but that would explain readily the scale and size issues. I am aware of all the engineering restraints regarding permafrost however. Alaska and Northern Canada have all the same issues. And I do not disagree with the problems that all the constructive restraints might have had before (real world).

Actually, take a look at Yakutsk on a map: it's near a couple of decent valleys, and going with the current density, I believe it'd be possible to fit maybe 1,5 millions, or even 2 millions into them. But still that leaves us more than we know what to do with, and such a massive city requires serious infrastructure, including for example power plants and landslides, something the Yakut government would hardly appreciate in my estimation.

I do however want to point out likely factors that led to the detailing of Russian/Yakut/Siberia, etc.... the way that it has been. Lack of Real Knowledge combined with a Lack of Real Desire to give any form of detailing.

I think the issue lies in the latter: after all, even when SR was fresh off the press, you could easily contact a Russian and pick his head over the Internet or FIDO.
Hell, even now Pegasus has to fix simple spelling errors in the names of Russian gear because looking it up in a dictionary is too complex a task for the CGL editors :/

[Nath]

Nath, English has no reason to be the corps' language either, other than the game being developed for the English-speaking auditory. English-speaking powers in SR take the place roughly equivalent to... well, not even Spanish-speakers of today, more like French-speakers. That is, sure, they have solid economies, but nothing out of the ordinary among the developed nations. English might remain the lingua franca in NorthAm, where the NAN might need one, but minding that the local economical powrhouse is Pueblo, and the previous story they share with UCAS, I wouldn't be sure even about that.

Japan didn't become the world only superpower on Day One of Shadowrun timeline. There is a shift from US to Japan that took several decades and was not complete until 2030-2036. And by 2040, it already ceased to be relevant since megacorporations and their Corporate Court now were the true superpowers.

Even if English completely disappeared from usage in a single generation in the NAN, South Africa, India, Hong Kong, Nigeria... not to mention its established use in trade and media, it would still remains the primary language for about 400 millions potential customers and employees in Great Britain, UCAS, CAS, California, Australia and New Zealand. Japanese is the primary language for only 150 millions people in Japan and it will stay more or less that way. Even if more educated people will be learning Japanese as a secondary language, it won't catch up on the number of English speakers, even in three or four decades. Especially because Japanese is much more difficult to learn, to speak and to write, than English.

The Pueblo and Aztlan could make a push for Spanish to be more commonly used in the NAN, but demographics wouldn't support it in the Ute, which have a large English-speaking Mormon population, or the Northern NAN, with little to no Latino population.
As a side note, Pueblo may be economically successful, its GDP is still less than half that of the CAS and a fourth of the UCAS (for a comparison, this is like comparing the economical power of Netherlands to France and Germany : richer per capita, but nonetheless way smaller).

[Fatum]

Japan didn't become the world only superpower on Day One of Shadowrun timeline. There is a shift from US to Japan that took several decades and was not complete until 2030-2036. And by 2040, it already ceased to be relevant since megacorporations and their Corporate Court now were the true superpowers.

Hm. This is a valid point.
There is a certain disparity between the number of japanacorps and corps from English-speaking nations, but it's not as significant, admittedly.

Even if English completely disappeared from usage in a single generation in the NAN, South Africa, India, Hong Kong, Nigeria... not to mention its established use in trade and media, it would still remains the primary language for about 400 millions potential customers and employees in Great Britain, UCAS, CAS, California, Australia and New Zealand.

Just as Chinese, Hindu, or Russian (with slight differences in the number of customers and potential employees we're talking about).

Japanese is the primary language for only 150 millions people in Japan and it will stay more or less that way. Even if more educated people will be learning Japanese as a secondary language, it won't catch up on the number of English speakers, even in three or four decades. Especially because Japanese is much more difficult to learn, to speak and to write, than English.

Under Lofwyr's NEEC, however, Europe might be mostly using German; Middle East would have no incentive to learn English between Sandstorm and SK, either, etc.

The Pueblo and Aztlan could make a push for Spanish to be more commonly used in the NAN, but demographics wouldn't support it in the Ute, which have a large English-speaking Mormon population, or the Northern NAN, with little to no Latino population.

Well if I remember, Ute became a part of PCC in 2067 :3

[Nath]

Just as Chinese, Hindu, or Russian (with slight differences in the number of customers and potential employees we're talking about).

The number of primary speakers is one factor. It is not the only one, and the position of world lingua franca is a winner-takes-it-all type of contest.

- Hindi is the primary language of about 300 millions of people and the secondary language of about 250 millions more, because the Mughal Empire ruled over much of the Indian subcontinent in the 17th and 18th century. It worth noting that even after the Marathi empire became the dominant power, the Marathi language still did not replace Hindi.

- Standard Chinese (Mandarin) is the language of about 1 billion people and the secondary language of about 200 or 300 millions, because of the Han Ming dynasty that ruled over China between the 14th and 17th century. Again, even after the Manchu Qing dynasty took over, the established language remained.

- Russian is the native language for about (only) 160-170 millions of people, which is barely more than Japanese. An additional 100 millions speaks it as secondary language, in large part because of Russia former role as the core of the Tsarist Empire and then the Soviet Union before 1989. There are actually more Spanish and Portuguese speakers (because of Latin America, Mozambique and Angola).

- English is the primary language of about 400 millions of people and is spoken by possibly 500 billions more, because Great Britain established a colonial empire over five centuries that covered almost a quarter of Earth land, and then because the United States replaced it as a world dominant power during the 20th century.

- Japanese is the primary language of about 150 millions of people and currently is spoken by almost no else, among other things because the Japanese failed to leave a lasting impression the last time they tried to conquer Asia.

I could go on with Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, French... English obviously as the top spot at the turn of the century, we're seeing it right now as we're discussing on this forum.
Should China become the world only superpower, will Chinese take the top spot? Maybe, but I still wouldn't expect it before the late part of the century. Anyway, in Shadowrun history, China never got the chance to become a superpower.

Japanese is "only" the language of a world superpower in SR, but that's not the only condition to fulfil to become a lingua franca (as the local example of Marathi and Manchu showed in the past). It doesn't have a large number of speakers, and it's hard to learn for the vast majority of people on Earth whose primary language belongs to the Indo-European or Semitic groups.

Under Lofwyr's NEEC, however, Europe might be mostly using German; Middle East would have no incentive to learn English between Sandstorm and SK, either, etc.

Again, there's no second spot. German has an even narrower base than Japanese to start with. If people speaks English or Japanese or Klingon, whatever the lingua franca is, there is no incentive to learn German. S-K has been the dominant force in the Middle East oil industry, but North American companies like United Oil and Exxoco nonetheless have a significant presence (S-K role would be closer to that of Halliburton and Technip than the classical oil company).

Well if I remember, Ute became a part of PCC in 2067 :3

Yes, in 2067. Ute had to run its own government for fifty years, and settle at some point for a language to communicate. With a large number of Mormons speaking English, and four different native Amerindian languages (Ute-Paiute, Shoshoni, Pawnee and Wichita), English was the most logical and practical choice.

[Fatum]

The number of primary speakers is one factor. It is not the only one, and the position of world lingua franca is a winner-takes-it-all type of contest.

Not really, as evidenced by the wide spread of regional languages like Hindi and Russian.

- Standard Chinese (Mandarin) is the language of about 1 billion people and the secondary language of about 200 or 300 millions, because of the Han Ming dynasty that ruled over China between the 14th and 17th century. Again, even after the Manchu Qing dynasty took over, the established language remained.

And those are 300 millions living all over the world still considering themselves to be Chinese. And with the warring nations in China's place in SR, that number will be even more significant.

- Russian is the native language for about (only) 160-170 millions of people, which is barely more than Japanese. An additional 100 millions speaks it as secondary language, in large part because of Russia former role as the core of the Tsarist Empire and then the Soviet Union before 1989. There are actually more Spanish and Portuguese speakers (because of Latin America, Mozambique and Angola).

Actually, it's 163 native and 114 secondary.

- English is the primary language of about 400 millions of people and is spoken by possibly 500 billions more, because Great Britain established a colonial empire over five centuries that covered almost a quarter of Earth land, and then because the United States replaced it as a world dominant power during the 20th century.

500 billions? You can't be serious :ь

Japanese is "only" the language of a world superpower in SR, but that's not the only condition to fulfil to become a lingua franca (as the local example of Marathi and Manchu showed in the past). It doesn't have a large number of speakers, and it's hard to learn for the vast majority of people on Earth whose primary language belongs to the Indo-European or Semitic groups.

It has four megacorps to promote it. Three and a half, okay.

Again, there's no second spot. German has an even narrower base than Japanese to start with. If people speaks English or Japanese or Klingon, whatever the lingua franca is, there is no incentive to learn German.

Ahem.

Yes, in 2067. Ute had to run its own government for fifty years, and settle at some point for a language to communicate. With a large number of Mormons speaking English, and four different native Amerindian languages (Ute-Paiute, Shoshoni, Pawnee and Wichita), English was the most logical and practical choice.

Which is the language of the people who just very narrowly haven't murdered you all. I know that SoNA lists it as pretty much the only majority language in the nation, but it's making no sense to me. After all, if we go with precedent, Hebrew saw a major resurrection in comparable circumstances.

[Nath]

The number of primary speakers is one factor. It is not the only one, and the position of world lingua franca is a winner-takes-it-all type of contest.

Not really, as evidenced by the wide spread of regional languageslike Hindi and Russian.

Again, the use of Hindi spread under the Mughal Empire, and Russian under the Tsarist Empire and Soviet Union. They achieve a lingua franca status when it still was a regional competition. They won that regional contest, and there was no second place for Punjabi or Azeri. Now it is a global competition, and there's not any more room for German in a globalized world than there was for Azeri in the Soviet Union.

Besides, the status of lingua franca doesn't require a sheer number of speakers. It requires administrations, merchants, scientists and medias to actively use it. In the past, it was mostly the result of a top-down spread, starting with the administration (as seen with Latin, Madarin Chinese, Hindi...). English went both top-down (US corporations) and bottom-up (Hollywood media and Internet).

Japanese is "only" the language of a world superpower in SR, but that's not the only condition to fulfil to become a lingua franca (as the local example of Marathi and Manchu showed in the past). It doesn't have a large number of speakers, and it's hard to learn for the vast majority of people on Earth whose primary language belongs to the Indo-European or Semitic groups.

It has four megacorps to promote it. Three and a half, okay.

Only because you assume those megacorporations would have an interest in promoting it.

Renraku started as an empty shell, that bought out Slovenian corporation Keruba International in 2029. It had a handful of Japanese board members, but the vast majority of its managers and executives were in Europe. Asian investments only took the lead in the mid-2040ies, when the corporation streamlined its European assets. And by the early or mid-2050ies, it was Renraku Americas turn to become the most important division.
Fuchi Industrial Electronics took over US/UCAS corporation JRJ International in 2038, but as part of a deal with Richard Villiers that made American, European and Asian divisions equals.
Yamatetsu started in 2032 as a 50-50 Filipino and Japanese. The Japanese faction only started to evict the Filipino faction from the board during the 2040ies. By 2056, Yamatetsu startefd its ongoin "we are the world" policy that wouldn't not cope well with forcefully promoting the Japanese language.

So even if you admit these megacorporations made the push for the Japanese language, they had a majority between 2042 and 2059. That is, even if school programs changed overnight all around the world (at least, thanks to tutorsoft, you wouldn't need to train actual teachers first), you would barely start to see the effect by the mid-2060s.

Again, there's no second spot. German has an even narrower base than Japanese to start with. If people speaks English or Japanese or Klingon, whatever the lingua franca is, there is no incentive to learn German.

Ahem.

And this and that.
German comes ahead as the first primary language in the European Union, with 16% of the population. English and Italian are second with 13%. And French third with 12%. Yet when it comes to learn an additional language, English still comes first, with 38% of population speaking it as an additional language, then French 12%, and German 11%. If you look at the countries where a significant numbers of people speak German as a secondary language, the biggest part are former part of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire, whose administration used German, before 1918. German new status as the European biggest economical power has yet to curb the trend. And it will never caught up on English if the rest of the world doesn't stop to use it first.

That's the point. You see no reason for the world to keep on speaking English, so it's seems logical for you that people would switch to any other language. But the biggest reason for English to remain in use is simply that English is already used. Though not static, linguistics is fairly conservative. English doesn't need a reason to remain the lingua franca. It would need a reason to stop being it. If a German and a Japanese can already understand each other by speaking English, there is no or little incentive for one of them to learn the other's language.

Yes, in 2067. Ute had to run its own government for fifty years, and settle at some point for a language to communicate. With a large number of Mormons speaking English, and four different native Amerindian languages (Ute-Paiute, Shoshoni, Pawnee and Wichita), English was the most logical and practical choice.

Which is the language of the people who just very narrowly haven't murdered you all. I know that SoNA lists it as pretty much the only majority language in the nation, but it's making no sense to me. After all, if we go with precedent, Hebrew saw a major resurrection in comparable circumstances.

After all, if we go with precedent, Latin also was the language of the people who just very narrowly haven't murdered all Christians. Established status. Even German remained in use among German-speaking Jews who settled in Israel, because it was as much their language than it was their enemies'.

If the Ute tribe managed to make their language the primary language of the Ute Nation over the other tribes (somewhat like Hebrew was enforced over Yiddish) it still wouldn't make the Ute language spoken in Aztlan, Pueblo, Sioux, Salish-Shidhe, Japan, and any other country they may trade with, or watch the movie and play the videogame. They wouldn't even need to learn it, they already do.

[Fatum]

Again, the use of Hindi spread under the Mughal Empire, and Russian under the Tsarist Empire and Soviet Union. They achieve a lingua franca status when it still was a regional competition. They won that regional contest, and there was no second place for Punjabi or Azeri. Now it is a global competition, and there's not any more room for German in a globalized world than there was for Azeri in the Soviet Union.

I guess this burns down to whether you believe regional languages would remain by 2070, or a single global lingua franca would be used as a second language everywhere. Going by the world's balkanization, I'm willing to believe the former more, with regional powers promoting their language around, in their areas of operation. After all, if Western Russia is an area of operations for two large primarily German-speaking entities, learning German just seems more immediately beneficial than learning English; and SoA makes no mention of German learned in Russia at all.

Only because you assume those megacorporations would have an interest in promoting it. [...] So even if you admit these megacorporations made the push for the Japanese language, they had a majority between 2042 and 2059. That is, even if school programs changed overnight all around the world (at least, thanks to tutorsoft, you wouldn't need to train actual teachers first), you would barely start to see the effect by the mid-2060s.

I go with the descriptions of japanacorps as nationalistic entities with the Japanese family-type management. Promoting the language top-down seems natural in this case.

German comes ahead as the first primary language in the European Union, with 16% of the population. English and Italian are second with 13%. And French third with 12%. Yet when it comes to learn an additional language, English still comes first, with 38% of population speaking it as an additional language, then French 12%, and German 11%. If you look at the countries where a significant numbers of people speak German as a secondary language, the biggest part are former part of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire, whose administration used German, before 1918. German new status as the European biggest economical power has yet to curb the trend. And it will never caught up on English if the rest of the world doesn't stop to use it first.

I interpret this data like this: while there is a global superpower that is promoting English globally simply by existing and doing business, in Europe there is also a leading local power that is promoting German the same way, and you can see that people are learning German for that. Just like in the CIS, people are still learning Russian as their second language, etc.
The case with SR is that there is no global superpower any more.

That's the point. You see no reason for the world to keep on speaking English, so it's seems logical for you that people would switch to any other language. But the biggest reason for English to remain in use is simply that English is already used. Though not static, linguistics is fairly conservative. English doesn't need a reason to remain the lingua franca. It would need a reason to stop being it. If a German and a Japanese can already understand each other by speaking English, there is no or little incentive for one of them to learn the other's language.

This inertia is a valid point of course, one that kept Latin used in Europe for a thousand years, for example. Still, while it's possible to use a shared second language doing business, naturally, a lot of people prefer direct translation - this is why even seemingly exotic languages are still learned around the globe.

After all, if we go with precedent, Latin also was the language of the people who just very narrowly haven't murdered all Christians.

Christians did not have their own language, so this is hardly a valid example.

Even German remained in use among German-speaking Jews who settled in Israel, because it was as much their language than it was their enemies'.

But Hebrew was enforced over it it and Yiddish, and look how the linguistic situation in Israel developed.

If the Ute tribe managed to make their language the primary language of the Ute Nation over the other tribes (somewhat like Hebrew was enforced over Yiddish) it still wouldn't make the Ute language spoken in Aztlan, Pueblo, Sioux, Salish-Shidhe, Japan, and any other country they may trade with, or watch the movie and play the videogame. They wouldn't even need to learn it, they already do.

They'd have Spanish or Japanese as an alternative.

[NeoJudas]

Fatum, guy... This is becoming a "doesn't fit my paradigm" conversation. Like it or not, this is one of those "this IS how the world works" moments.

[Fatum]

I've written it up in Nath's version, pretty much, but I left the updates on my rig in Moscow and went to see Kiev.

[Fatum]

Okay, back from Kiev, uploaded the stuff.
Some stuff on the crime in Russia (syndicates, gangs, cossacks), what's it like in the prisons, the bit on language we've discussed, and an overview of the corp operations.

[NeoJudas]

Hey guy, I need to understand a concept more fully. I need to understand the "Metahuman Zone" and *EXACTLY* what it's demarcations are. Is there anyway you can give those to me/us please?

[Fatum]

Sure. As per Shadows of Asia and SWA, Awakened Yakut bars its metahuman citizens from entering most of its territory.

Large portions of the Siberian interior were declared off-limits to metahumans, and a significant number of villages had to relocate from the Siberian heartland to the fringes, where they often suffered Russian border raids. Use of “inappropriate technology” was severely restricted, as were certain types of magical practices, like conjuring.

Those terms included exile to the fringes of the new country, limits placed on their technology

I use the term Metahuman Zone for the areas where metahumans can settle, and Preserve for the ones off-limits. Completely removing metahumans from the interior seems excessive, however, so I suggest neo-primitivists who live in harmony with the nature were allowed back in.
I'll describe it in more detail in the Yakut chapter.

[NeoJudas]

Sure. As per Shadows of Asia and SWA, Awakened Yakut bars its metahuman citizens from entering most of its territory.


I use the term Metahuman Zone for the areas where metahumans can settle, and Preserve for the ones off-limits. Completely removing metahumans from the interior seems excessive, however, so I suggest neo-primitivists who live in harmony with the nature were allowed back in.
I'll describe it in more detail in the Yakut chapter.

I think what would clarify this the best is a map.......... specifically declaring known metahuman zones. As for completely removing them from the interior, it would not be impossible ... just impractical in a long term consideration.

[Fatum]

Maps are something that will be absolutely necessary. I am hoping to bring fexes into producing those, but minding that at the very least a general map of the two countries, a few city maps (I'm thinking Moscow, St.Petersburg, Vladivostok and Yakutsk at least) and a few combat maps (both for large-scale maneuvers and actual engagements) are needed, I might have to make some myself. As for the metahuman zones, what we know is that "the interior" is off limits, so it's likely Southern and Eastern ends of the country that will be designated Metahuman Zone - basically what is more or less densely populated nowadays already. And, as I said, some or all of the rest of the country can be accessible for neo-primitivist deer or mammoth herders.

[NeoJudas]

A tidbit I ran across today.

http://robertscribbler.wordpress.com/2013/...g-tundra-fires/

[Fatum]

I'm trying to write up the Awakened Yakut, and right from the very beginning I've run into trouble. As per the books, its population is 21.300.000. Right now, the population of Republic Saha (Yakutia) is around one million men, and a good share of these people are Russians.
Actually, I've compiled some current population numbers for the ethnic minorities of Siberia.

[ Spoiler ]

Yakuts: 478085.
Buryats: 461389.
Siberian Tatars of various subethnicities: 358949.
Khakas: 68132.
Evenks: 38396 (those are, as we remember, the driving force behind Sagan Zaba rebellion).
Nenets: 34843.
Khanty: 30943.
Evens: 21830 (closely related to but distinct from the Evenks).
Chukchi: 15908.
Mansi: 12269.
Shors: 12888.
Koryaks: 8743.
Dolgans: 7885.
Soyot: 3579.
Selkup: 4249.
Uygurs: around 4000.
Total: 1.562.088.

Add to this some minor ethnicities, each one numbering less than two thousand people, which in total account for maybe 40 thousand more, for a round number of 1,6 million. Where do 20 more millions come from, minding that Russian is a minority language in the country (so they can't just all be the Russian dissidents, green activists, magicians offended with the Euro War or whatever)? Okay, let's say a million are shapeshifters, free spirits and other new arrivals. 19 million, of which around 10 millions tops can be of Russian descent. Still not any better...

[Tzeentch]

Shadowrun has had a long and troubled history with rather ridiculous population inflation in areas that look geographically large. Canonically, it can be explained a number of ways - including outright lying to obfuscate the actual number of inhabitants to make it more difficult to estimate the number of potential combatants. It's not like most of these awakened countries would run a census.

So I wouldn't take the numbers (Sixth World Almanac, p. 132) with anything but a very large grain of sea salt.

[Fatum]

Actually, I missed the ethic and language percentages in SoA: basically, Yakuts/Russians/others are 40/40/20. I guess it's possible to justify with exaggerations and lower VITAS death counts thanks to the sparse initial population. On the other hand, when describing the cities, I have to account for the actual population numbers, and it's still hard for me to imagine a sprawl built on permafrost. I guess it'll just end up looking like a huge Norilsk sans the pollution.

[Tzeentch]

I can help with maps. What do you want to see exactly? Is it stuff not on the SWA map?

[Fatum]

Ideally, I'd want the maps of the two countries (based on SoA, not 6WA), as well as the maps of the major cities I mention (Moscow, St.Petersburg, Vladivostok, Yakutsk, Magadan) in at least low detailing (largest roads, bodies of water, and city quarters). Maybe maps of a military compound or two, but I'm not sure about that. At least when that was discussed there were people rather enthusiastic about that.

On a side note: at least half a dozen Yakut citizens have to be city-dwellers, where the hell do they get electricity without using fossils, hydroplants (Lena can be used for that, but that'd mean massive flooding) or nuclear (cause hurr nuclear=toxic)?

[Tzeentch]

Ideally, I'd want the maps of the two countries (based on SoA, not 6WA), as well as the maps of the major cities I mention (Moscow, St.Petersburg, Vladivostok, Yakutsk, Magadan) in at least low detailing (largest roads, bodies of water, and city quarters). Maybe maps of a military compound or two, but I'm not sure about that. At least when that was discussed there were people rather enthusiastic about that.

On a side note: at least half a dozen Yakut citizens have to be city-dwellers, where the hell do they get electricity without using fossils, hydroplants (Lena can be used for that, but that'd mean massive flooding) or nuclear (cause hurr nuclear=toxic)?

City maps might be a bit too time consuming at the moment, but I'll see what I can do about a regional map (I do use the SWA borders though). Forgot about the Kamchatka rift thing.

[Fatum]

Thanks for good intentions, but I really don't think a map based on 6WA would work, thanks to massively changing the borders, to the point of a couple cities like Bratsk changing hands.

[Tzeentch]

They don't look that different to an eyeball comparison except in the NE. The SWA map follows the oblast borders pretty closely which was convenient. I'll rectify the map and see if there are any substantial differences I need to fix.