Yakut Shuffle: questions, ideas, criticism Options

[NeoJudas]

Shadowrun has a long-running tradition of turning folklore beliefs into spirit types; and that's been done for Baba Yaga (and the rest of the creatures of the same archetype). While I agree it's powerful image with great storytelling potential, I try not to contradict pre-established fluff where possible.

Who said anything about going against pre-established fluff? I'm saying to look deeper into the consideration of a singular individual who is *ALSO* out there and not just the class of spirits that have been generically given the same name. At some point, we've even made out-of-game jokes that Vernya might be a fragment of a Gaianic-being that Baba-Yaga is a form for.

First, they were rather different among themselves, just piling them all together as if they have a common tradition wouldn't be doing them justice.
Second, the Native American shamanic traditions were also quite a diverse bunch, but they all got bundled into a single Shamanic tradition in the crunch.

First, neither of us ... even combined ... have the time necessary to write-up the tradition of every shamanic "tradition", as that's completely the wrong way to approach shamanism anyway. Tradition is tribal. Shamanism is mindset, and even within individual tribes as part of great tribes the shamans' had their individualistic paths. North American or otherwise.

Vernya's not gone anywhere, and each write-up of the Yakut points out that they're extremely technophobic, to the point of making most of the country metahuman-free to clear it from the taint.

And I'm still not going against that grain.

Technocritters don't have any qualitative differences from paracritters when it comes to training, so that's a non-issue.

Save that a collection of them, small in number, are Sapient as well. I'm also reminding you in saying that not all the Yakutian/AS forces are paracritter-ish, but are regular metahuman. And every post on Yakut states that as well. They may not be drawn as the "top dogs", but they are integral. I'm also looking at the consideration that an eCritter might be exactly what the Yakutians/AS forces need to listen in without hardware or metahuman "taint".

I am frankly not sure where in the Northern Asia can one find a delta clinic.

Ah, allow me some elaboration to my earlier comment. I'm saying that the Yakutian/AS or even individuals such as Ulric could hear (and even imagine) the horror stories of megacorporate experimentation. And the Delta-Grade implanted shapeshifters (probably some of which were attempts at controlware I'm imagining) would be something that would get their attention. Would make for interesting extraction story material. And if one or two of these stories turned out real, it would impact a lot of things.

[NeoJudas]

New Additional Subject. The Bugs

Newest material indicates that the Bugs have not gone away. And in many ways, might actually be more powerful now due to their better disbursement and understanding of "modern" metahumanity and it's ways. Ares, and the others who have experimented, with the Bugs made their strides but are paying a spiritual price now for their actions.

Bugs in Yakut and Russia's Far-East. To the Russian's, I'd see them as the same problem everyone else has. To the Yakutians/AS, I see them as a serious territorial threat. A spiritual contender, one that neither Vernya nor the shapers would want around. The flipside is at least the shapers have a better chance of fighting off the Bugs. But attrition would become the problem there.

I'm also curious about the Bugs because they do need to adapt to survive and may not be as difficult to negotiate with if you were Russian Military than say, the Shedim that the UCAS has made pacts with. Also, due to Russia's expansive military history, many of the more militant/structured invae beings would have found infiltration a tad bit easier.

[NeoJudas]

Can't see that in the power's description?

I can't find it now. There was a restriction on Spirit Powers and vehicles in that spirit force had to equate to vehicle body to fully influence it. That may be a mental throw-back to 3rd ed.

And? Spirits are Immune to Normal Weapons, but that just means they take a bit more Normal Weapons to disrupt, is all.

Concealment is troublesome, but a SOTA jet sensor suite has a chance to see through it. But it'll glow like a motherfuck on Astral.
I agree that most operations need magical support, though.

With regards to Channelling, I'm not discussing the benefits of the Immunity Power (though maybe helpful), I'm more interested in the increase in powers and physical attributes. We've noted even with the changes in 4th ed from earlier editions of the power, a magician (or magical adept is worse) who has channelled even a force -6 spirit is an immensely altered opponent.

And I'm going to sit here and stare at you always when you start in on the idea of things "glow like a motherfuck on the Astral." I'm going to stare because Masking and/or Concealment have influences here. So does being a singular being amongst a large biomass, especially a biomass admist a region with background count ... all of which influence perception modifiers.

Russia: 144m (SoA, 125). Yakut: 19m (SoA, 140).

Most of which is NOT in the eastern half of the nation. In fact, at most that population distribution is 20-30 million of Russians are in the eastern half if you extrapolate modern distribution onto the adjusted populace of the SR Universe.

Haha, no. Not at all. Some demschizoid type with paranoid tendencies might call Putin's Russia the new USSR, but that's as marginal an opinion as it gets. SR Russia has the NSS, National Supreme Soviet, as its governing body, but the "Soviet" in question means "Council". The leading party, National Soviet Reconstructionists, take their name from the name of the governing body as well.

I'm curious how to take this paragraph to be honest.

You don't even need those, just see the auras from the astral. Getting back to your body to report is taking you what, a dozen seconds at most, with the movement speeds on Astral.

Against the Russians maybe (although it seems rather inconsistent to me that the rebels are fighting the Russians instead of getting their support at least until they oust the shifters and grab the power themselves).
Can't find anything on the Vory playing any significant role in the rebellion - they are generally not really frontline fighters.

Again, to start with you're making astral perception so much easier than it is. Getting back to your body is easy to do if unimpaired. Impairment however in these regions is another thing. Oh, dumb thought just struck me ... seriously. Time out of body for Astral Projection is Magic Based right??? Remember that joke about Background Count influencing Magic Attribute too???? This can all stack up nastily in no time. I guess it's the flipside to having had a magic-heavy game for so long ... you become really f'ing familiar with how the goods and bads.

And the rebels are whose rebels? Russian Rebels whom are anti-Yakut, or Awakened Rebels whom are pro-Yakut (sympathizers?). I feel both (all?) sides have to deal with that issue.

[Fatum]

Who said anything about going against pre-established fluff? I'm saying to look deeper into the consideration of a singular individual who is *ALSO* out there and not just the class of spirits that have been generically given the same name. At some point, we've even made out-of-game jokes that Vernya might be a fragment of a Gaianic-being that Baba-Yaga is a form for.

When there's an official book going "Baba Yaga is a form of wild spirit", going "but also so much more!" is as much a retcon as it gets.

First, neither of us ... even combined ... have the time necessary to write-up the tradition of every shamanic "tradition", as that's completely the wrong way to approach shamanism anyway. Tradition is tribal. Shamanism is mindset, and even within individual tribes as part of great tribes the shamans' had their individualistic paths. North American or otherwise.

Still, just making every Siberian shaman a simple follower of shamanic path seems kinda bland to me.

Save that a collection of them, small in number, are Sapient as well. I'm also reminding you in saying that not all the Yakutian/AS forces are paracritter-ish, but are regular metahuman. And every post on Yakut states that as well. They may not be drawn as the "top dogs", but they are integral. I'm also looking at the consideration that an eCritter might be exactly what the Yakutians/AS forces need to listen in without hardware or metahuman "taint".

So? Sapient paracritters, both hive and individualistic, are nothing unheard of, either.
In my understanding, if you fight against technology and the metahumans who developed it as much as you fight against the polution metahumans produce, you should be treating the animal products of one just like the animals products of another, technocritters like toxic mutants.
I guess rumours on Yakut technocritters can go into shadowtalk and spark a discussion similar to what we have here, even among the Yakut themselves, though.

Ah, allow me some elaboration to my earlier comment. I'm saying that the Yakutian/AS or even individuals such as Ulric could hear (and even imagine) the horror stories of megacorporate experimentation.

Uh, who?

And the Delta-Grade implanted shapeshifters (probably some of which were attempts at controlware I'm imagining) would be something that would get their attention. Would make for interesting extraction story material. And if one or two of these stories turned out real, it would impact a lot of things.

You'd think that between the American shifters who have to integrate into a wider corp-run society and the Yakut shifters who're building their own the megacorps would choose the American ones for experimentation.

[Fatum]

New Additional Subject. The Bugs

Newest material indicates that the Bugs have not gone away. And in many ways, might actually be more powerful now due to their better disbursement and understanding of "modern" metahumanity and it's ways. Ares, and the others who have experimented, with the Bugs made their strides but are paying a spiritual price now for their actions.

Bugs in Yakut and Russia's Far-East. To the Russian's, I'd see them as the same problem everyone else has. To the Yakutians/AS, I see them as a serious territorial threat. A spiritual contender, one that neither Vernya nor the shapers would want around. The flipside is at least the shapers have a better chance of fighting off the Bugs. But attrition would become the problem there.

I'm also curious about the Bugs because they do need to adapt to survive and may not be as difficult to negotiate with if you were Russian Military than say, the Shedim that the UCAS has made pacts with. Also, due to Russia's expansive military history, many of the more militant/structured invae beings would have found infiltration a tad bit easier.

I must say I don't like the whole experimentation plot at all. Of all people, Ares should know that bugs are not to be joked with, so them experimenting with bug possession doesn't make much sense to me.
The invae work best as a sort of a hidden threat, after the Universal Brotherhood has been wiped out (supposedly, cleansing also happened in Russia and Yakut). That is, a hive infiltrating a regiment is a-ok, a hive possessing a regiment after a regiment on their direct superior's orders is just out of place.

[Fatum]

I can't find it now. There was a restriction on Spirit Powers and vehicles in that spirit force had to equate to vehicle body to fully influence it. That may be a mental throw-back to 3rd ed.

I joined SR at 4th, and I can't remember anything like that. There may be some obscure rule that I don't know about (like the vehicle armour not protecting against explosions or full auto shots), but yeah, nothing comes to mind.

With regards to Channelling, I'm not discussing the benefits of the Immunity Power (though maybe helpful), I'm more interested in the increase in powers and physical attributes. We've noted even with the changes in 4th ed from earlier editions of the power, a magician (or magical adept is worse) who has channelled even a force -6 spirit is an immensely altered opponent.

"Even"? I think you may be misestimating the average power of the Awakened. About one in a hundred metahumans is Awakened, and most of them aren't nearly Magic 6. So when discussing the abilities of the Awakened in mass formations, I think it should be kept in mind that the vast majority of them are in the Magic 1 to 3 gap.
Also, even with spirit 3 possession, a metahuman is no match for a heavy vehicle in stats, and heavy vehicles are destroyed by other heavy vehicles.

And I'm going to sit here and stare at you always when you start in on the idea of things "glow like a motherfuck on the Astral." I'm going to stare because Masking and/or Concealment have influences here. So does being a singular being amongst a large biomass, especially a biomass admist a region with background count ... all of which influence perception modifiers.

Spirit Concealment is not working on Astral: it's hiding you from mundane watchers by giving a negative dice pool modifier to Perception; astral observers use Assensing, not Perception, to spot you. Masking also only allows you to hide the fact that you're Awakened, not the fact that you're there. Now, a dual-natured entity like a shifter might hide itself and a few others from astral surveillance, but those are even rarer than metahuman mages.
Also, a Perception test to notice a spell cast has a threshold of 6-Force, remember?

Most of which is NOT in the eastern half of the nation. In fact, at most that population distribution is 20-30 million of Russians are in the eastern half if you extrapolate modern distribution onto the adjusted populace of the SR Universe.

The conscription is not limited to the eastern half, and neither is headhunting for the Awakened.

I'm curious how to take this paragraph to be honest.

Neither RL Russians nor any SR materials call Russia Soviet Union, nor Russians Soviets.

Again, to start with you're making astral perception so much easier than it is. Getting back to your body is easy to do if unimpaired. Impairment however in these regions is another thing.

What is stopping you from flying back to your body at the speed of thought, when outdoors? Even if you have Astral combat initiated against you, you can still simply run, and shifting from Astral to RL you're more or less safe from anyone giving chase (even if they're able to find where you went to begin with).

Oh, dumb thought just struck me ... seriously. Time out of body for Astral Projection is Magic Based right??? Remember that joke about Background Count influencing Magic Attribute too???? This can all stack up nastily in no time. I guess it's the flipside to having had a magic-heavy game for so long ... you become really f'ing familiar with how the goods and bads.

Yeah, Magic hours out of body. Still, that's enough to fly around the Earth a few times even with Magic 1.

And the rebels are whose rebels? Russian Rebels whom are anti-Yakut, or Awakened Rebels whom are pro-Yakut (sympathizers?). I feel both (all?) sides have to deal with that issue.

As far as I understand, the rebellion is not a nationalist cause, it's not pro-Russian or anti-Russian (hell, Yakut has some 40% Russian population to begin with). The rebellion is anti-government, and so it makes sense for them to accept Russian help as long as it isn't compromising their sovereignty - same as Lenin accepted help from the Germans, for example.

[NeoJudas]

I will respond to more later, been a long day... Bt the channelling reference and magic attribute/spirit force thing was related to the part of the conversation regarding the one dragon and vehicles originally.

[Fatum]

A dragon has Body in the 20ies, low 30ies with possession. A tank has body and armour in the 40ies.

[NeoJudas]

A dragon has Body in the 20ies, low 30ies with possession. A tank has body and armour in the 40ies.

Does a Jet???

[ Spoiler ]

EFA VARIANTS
HAND ACCEL SPEED PILOT BODY ARMOR SENSOR AVAIL COST
+ 2 60/300 2000 2 20 8 4 25F 7,325,000¥

AZTECHNOLOGY HALCON
HAND ACCEL SPEED PILOT BODY ARMOR SENSOR AVAIL COST
+ 1 60/240 1800 3 22 16 3 28F 13,500,000¥

And as for tanks....

[ Spoiler ]

CAS/GD STONEWALL MAIN BATTLE TANK
HAND ACCEL SPEED PILOT BODY ARMOR SENSOR AVAIL COST
+ 0 20/100 400 3 36 28 3 28F 7,875,000¥

BAE CENTURION
HAND ACCEL SPEED PILOT BODY ARMOR SENSOR AVAIL COST
– 1 25/150 480 2 32 24 4 28F 7,250,000¥

If you use the "4 dice per 1 Hit" conversion for quick mechanics of NPC's ... the Stonewall in this example gets the 15 hits, and of course the power has to be above. We often have pointed out that "dragons with claws do damage as per book, dragons walking up (flying up, jumping up, etc.) and punching do Str/2, +2 reach".

And I won't even make the bad jokes about the Storm Front GD's in this example since we don't know of/have any GD's in the Eastern Russian/Yakut conflicts.

[NeoJudas]

"Even"? I think you may be misestimating the average power of the Awakened. About one in a hundred metahumans is Awakened, and most of them aren't nearly Magic 6. So when discussing the abilities of the Awakened in mass formations, I think it should be kept in mind that the vast majority of them are in the Magic 1 to 3 gap.
Also, even with spirit 3 possession, a metahuman is no match for a heavy vehicle in stats, and heavy vehicles are destroyed by other heavy vehicles.

See clarification on the dragon discussion and jets.

Spirit Concealment is not working on Astral: it's hiding you from mundane watchers by giving a negative dice pool modifier to Perception; astral observers use Assensing, not Perception, to spot you. Masking also only allows you to hide the fact that you're Awakened, not the fact that you're there. Now, a dual-natured entity like a shifter might hide itself and a few others from astral surveillance, but those are even rarer than metahuman mages.

Sorry... not true.

[ Spoiler ]

Concealment
Type: P • Action: Simple • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained
This power refers to a critter’s ability to mystically hide itself or
others, or alternatively to hide something that people are looking
for. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter’s
Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used on a number of targets simultaneously equal
to the critter’s Magic; concealed subjects can see each other if the critter
allows it. Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal
themselves and others from astral detection.

Also, a Perception test to notice a spell cast has a threshold of 6-Force, remember?

+ Modifiers.....

The conscription is not limited to the eastern half, and neither is headhunting for the Awakened.

Actually, it is. Metroplex/Metropolitan and Semi-Urbanization are the conscription limitations. Also, I'm looking and population distribution from the early 20th to base projected estimates on. We used to use stuff from the 1980's when we started looking at stuff 20 years ago.

What is stopping you from flying back to your body at the speed of thought, when outdoors? Even if you have Astral combat initiated against you, you can still simply run, and shifting from Astral to RL you're more or less safe from anyone giving chase (even if they're able to find where you went to begin with).

Not safe from Spirits, who have those speeds and the advantage in native environment(s). As for what is stopping you? Did you forget to see the Trees for the Forest? Ever actually played out a full-on astral-only engagement between two or more adversaries in a magically rich (background modified) locale and living objects (jutting rocks and trees)? Try it once, I mean seriously play it out. Get another player, have some fun, and try it. More lethal than you allow for. And btw, Trees and Rocks work against gunfire, missiles and such as well.

Yeah, Magic hours out of body. Still, that's enough to fly around the Earth a few times even with Magic 1.

Actually, No. Puritanically speaking, Magic Starts in Vladivostok and dies somewhere around Moscow. 2.5 Hours per round trip at normal (non-initiatory) astral speeds. By that I mean the person with Magic 1 starts in V-town and dies in Moscow a cold and lonely astral demise.

As far as I understand, the rebellion is not a nationalist cause, it's not pro-Russian or anti-Russian (hell, Yakut has some 40% Russian population to begin with). The rebellion is anti-government, and so it makes sense for them to accept Russian help as long as it isn't compromising their sovereignty - same as Lenin accepted help from the Germans, for example.

Mostly I'd have originally called it Pro-Russian for those not wanting Yakutian Rule as that was the original. Anti-Yakutian for most metahumans then. And Lenin's situation was a bit more climactic at the time for the situation, just as this would be. This time however, "Lenin" would be asking the Megas for help since the government had failed already. For some reason I draw an in-game analogy to when California called for help, got the Japanese ... and more than they bargained for too boot.

[Fatum]

Does a Jet???

A jet doesn't need to; the point is, jets are capable of blowing up tanks, they should be capable of blowing up a dragon.
Also, in your tank stats you forget the smart armour upgrade coming default, which brings it to about the aforementioned 40/40.

Sorry... not true.

Which part isn't true?
Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter’s Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
So spirits granting Concealment are not hiding you from Assensing.

Actually, it is. Metroplex/Metropolitan and Semi-Urbanization are the conscription limitations.

Soviet army was staffed on extraterritorial basis: the conscripts never served in the region they were drafted from. I fail to see how a nation in SR would be unable to move its army personnel from one part of its territory to another, if it was possible a century earlier.

Not safe from Spirits, who have those speeds and the advantage in native environment(s). As for what is stopping you? Did you forget to see the Trees for the Forest? Ever actually played out a full-on astral-only engagement between two or more adversaries in a magically rich (background modified) locale and living objects (jutting rocks and trees)? Try it once, I mean seriously play it out. Get another player, have some fun, and try it. More lethal than you allow for. And btw, Trees and Rocks work against gunfire, missiles and such as well.

Safe from spirits if you take a moment to put up the wards.
I've played astral combats, but those involved combatants actually interested in perpetuating the fight, none of them willing to run.

Actually, No. Puritanically speaking, Magic Starts in Vladivostok and dies somewhere around Moscow. 2.5 Hours per round trip at normal (non-initiatory) astral speeds. By that I mean the person with Magic 1 starts in V-town and dies in Moscow a cold and lonely astral demise.

Okay, my bad, I misremembered the movement speeds. Still, it's entirely possible to perform astral scouting in Yakut while chilling on a military base in South Siberia.

Mostly I'd have originally called it Pro-Russian for those not wanting Yakutian Rule as that was the original. Anti-Yakutian for most metahumans then.

The way it's worded in SoA, for example, the Evenks forming the bulk of the rebels hate the Russians as much the Yakut do, and the rebellion is against the current rulers of the country (the spirits and the shifters) and the limitations imposed upon the metahumans by them.
It is pro-Russian only in the sense that my enemy's enemy is a friend - and that's exactly the logic I apply when I think the Sagan Zaba would deal with Russia unofficially.

And Lenin's situation was a bit more climactic at the time for the situation, just as this would be.

Actually, when Lenin acquired German help, his supporters weren't even fighting a civil war, so acquiring external help is an overripe decision for the rebels.

This time however, "Lenin" would be asking the Megas for help since the government had failed already. For some reason I draw an in-game analogy to when California called for help, got the Japanese ... and more than they bargained for too boot.

Megas would be a viable option to call for support, but I still think Russia's bound to be involved for three reasons: first, even megas would be careful in their actions on Evo's doorstep (and in the zone of interests of SK and the Russians); second, supporting the rebels would still necessarily require going through the Russian airspace; third, Russian weapons are already sold to them (SoA again, Irkutsk description). From the rebel point of few, it'd only make sense to play Russia into giving them weapons for their struggle in exchange for promises.

[NeoJudas]

A jet doesn't need to; the point is, jets are capable of blowing up tanks, they should be capable of blowing up a dragon.
Also, in your tank stats you forget the smart armour upgrade coming default, which brings it to about the aforementioned 40/40.

All tanks have Smart Armor??? Where did this happen? What book did I miss for this?

Which part isn't true?
Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter’s Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
So spirits granting Concealment are not hiding you from Assensing.

Did you see that "spoiler" I put up earler? Anything like that I put that contains game book quotations, such as in this case the power of Concealment as a power detailed from the SR4 Anniversary edition specifically mention astral perception. The Spirit power of Concealment specifically gives that example. Assensing *IS* a Perception test, just using a different "perception" skill along with the same attribute (Intuition).

Soviet army was staffed on extraterritorial basis: the conscripts never served in the region they were drafted from. I fail to see how a nation in SR would be unable to move its army personnel from one part of its territory to another, if it was possible a century earlier.

I didn't say it couldn't. I was talking about populations as a whole in that part of the paragraph and the distributions of such. Russia has that idiotic strip that is mostly for protecting the Trans-Siberian Railway Corridor to V-Town.

Safe from spirits if you take a moment to put up the wards.
I've played astral combats, but those involved combatants actually interested in perpetuating the fight, none of them willing to run.

Astral Evasion, including pulling out from a fight, can risk the whole "running while not defending, last action out by the opponent left undefended" rule in the Combat area. As for the Wards thing, sure... a Ward is supposed to do it's appropriate job. BUT, you have to get to its protected area, it does not come with you obviously.

Okay, my bad, I misremembered the movement speeds. Still, it's entirely possible to perform astral scouting in Yakut while chilling on a military base in South Siberia.

Of course it is, and I'm sure that it would be done. But I'm saying the risks would be higher than normal and the mindset of the russian military mages doing so would be a bit higher strung because of it.

The way it's worded in SoA, for example, the Evenks forming the bulk of the rebels hate the Russians as much the Yakut do, and the rebellion is against the current rulers of the country (the spirits and the shifters) and the limitations imposed upon the metahumans by them.
It is pro-Russian only in the sense that my enemy's enemy is a friend - and that's exactly the logic I apply when I think the Sagan Zaba would deal with Russia unofficially.

I need to go back and re-read SoA, it was a good read as I recall but it still felt like it was written from an outsiders point of view who didn't even have friends from that part of the world.

Actually, when Lenin acquired German help, his supporters weren't even fighting a civil war, so acquiring external help is an overripe decision for the rebels.

Megas would be a viable option to call for support, but I still think Russia's bound to be involved for three reasons: first, even megas would be careful in their actions on Evo's doorstep (and in the zone of interests of SK and the Russians); second, supporting the rebels would still necessarily require going through the Russian airspace; third, Russian weapons are already sold to them (SoA again, Irkutsk description). From the rebel point of few, it'd only make sense to play Russia into giving them weapons for their struggle in exchange for promises.

Supporting the rebels would NOT mean going through Russian Air-Space. It can also mean direct-drops from on-high as well as trans-polar effects at altitude. It can also mean the Rebels *come to the Megas* for the supplies instead of dealing with Russia. As it is, the Russian Rebels wouldn't be rebels per say in V-Town, unless they were just jerks to begin with so they'd be a lot freer to move about as long as the normal channels were being dealt with respectfully (Vory, Seoulpa, etc).

I know if it were mine to amend, there'd be some serious changes to the Irkutsk material and the history of their paper and lumber mills on the environment. I'd also go into some serious reconsideration for Baikal as a whole, as the Lake is as massive as the combined Great Lakes of North America and sits on one of the oldest rift valleys left on Earth. Waaaaay too much there to be ignored.

[Fatum]

All tanks have Smart Armor??? Where did this happen? What book did I miss for this?

The tank that we have stats for, the Stonewall, does.

Did you see that "spoiler" I put up earler? Anything like that I put that contains game book quotations, such as in this case the power of Concealment as a power detailed from the SR4 Anniversary edition specifically mention astral perception. The Spirit power of Concealment specifically gives that example. Assensing *IS* a Perception test, just using a different "perception" skill along with the same attribute (Intuition).

It specifically says that "concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection".
Spirits are not dual-natured, and creatures other than dual-natured do not hide themselves and others from astral perception (otherwise there wouldn't have been that stipulation in the rules).
Assensing tests are not Perception tests. Perception tests use Perception, Assensing tests use Assensing. Not all Intuition-linked tests are Perception tests, only the ones using the skill Perception.

I didn't say it couldn't. I was talking about populations as a whole in that part of the paragraph and the distributions of such. Russia has that idiotic strip that is mostly for protecting the Trans-Siberian Railway Corridor to V-Town.

Uh, you notice that all the major Russian cities east of the Urals sit along that line? Including Novosibirsk, Irkutsk, Krasnoyarsk, Tomsk and Vladivostok?
Still, even if Russia lost the Transsib, I fail to see how it'd be a catastrophe for Vladivostok - after all, Seattle is a UCAS enclave, and it's feeling fine.
Also, for determining the number of Awakened a country might find, the population numbers matter, the population density not so much.

Astral Evasion, including pulling out from a fight, can risk the whole "running while not defending, last action out by the opponent left undefended" rule in the Combat area. As for the Wards thing, sure... a Ward is supposed to do it's appropriate job. BUT, you have to get to its protected area, it does not come with you obviously.

What rule? I don't remember that one in 4e?
Running is a Simple Action, regardless.

Of course it is, and I'm sure that it would be done. But I'm saying the risks would be higher than normal and the mindset of the russian military mages doing so would be a bit higher strung because of it.

You know, combat areas tend to be a bit more risky for the combatants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I need to go back and re-read SoA, it was a good read as I recall but it still felt like it was written from an outsiders point of view who didn't even have friends from that part of the world.

T:SH was written by a Russian, obviously, while SoA apparently wasn't. But compared to 6WA, it's still Tolsoevsky.

Supporting the rebels would NOT mean going through Russian Air-Space. It can also mean direct-drops from on-high as well as trans-polar effects at altitude.

Sending cargo first up and then down the well is extremely costy.
And going to Sagan Zaba territory from the pole would mean crossing the entirety of Yakut airspace, which is even worse than Russian for supplying the rebels.

It can also mean the Rebels *come to the Megas* for the supplies instead of dealing with Russia. As it is, the Russian Rebels wouldn't be rebels per say in V-Town, unless they were just jerks to begin with so they'd be a lot freer to move about as long as the normal channels were being dealt with respectfully (Vory, Seoulpa, etc).

They'd be citizens of a hostile state on the territory of an autocratic country. That's rarely good for your health; and even if acquiring weapons itself is hardly a problem, getting them across a border where border skirmishes happen can be problematic. Even if successful, the amount of matériel brought in a run is incomparable to what an open undisrupted logistics chain is capable of bringing in the same time.

I know if it were mine to amend, there'd be some serious changes to the Irkutsk material and the history of their paper and lumber mills on the environment. I'd also go into some serious reconsideration for Baikal as a whole, as the Lake is as massive as the combined Great Lakes of North America and sits on one of the oldest rift valleys left on Earth. Waaaaay too much there to be ignored.

How do you feel about my Irkutsk writeup, then?

[Fatum]

Finished the first draft of Russian cities description.

Also, added some pictures to the draft. I'm not sure too many of them fit all that well, but oh well, beggars, choosers.

[NeoJudas]

The tank that we have stats for, the Stonewall, does.

The attributes on the page are the final attributes, not ones yet to be adjusted.

It specifically says that "concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection".
Spirits are not dual-natured, and creatures other than dual-natured do not hide themselves and others from astral perception (otherwise there wouldn't have been that stipulation in the rules).
Assensing tests are not Perception tests. Perception tests use Perception, Assensing tests use Assensing. Not all Intuition-linked tests are Perception tests, only the ones using the skill Perception.

Okay... first of all, a Spirit can be dual-natured if it wishes to be so, some part of it always remains on the Astral, regardless of Manifestation or Materialization status. And Assensing is the fancy word for "Astral Perception". Different medium or not, it remains a perception test.

Uh, you notice that all the major Russian cities east of the Urals sit along that line? Including Novosibirsk, Irkutsk, Krasnoyarsk, Tomsk and Vladivostok?
Still, even if Russia lost the Transsib, I fail to see how it'd be a catastrophe for Vladivostok - after all, Seattle is a UCAS enclave, and it's feeling fine.
Also, for determining the number of Awakened a country might find, the population numbers matter, the population density not so much.

1, And the combined populations of those cities is what in SR? Hell, what is it in 2010 and the last major census data out of Russia? 2, Seattle and the UCAS, as an analogy, is a city always on the verge of seceding from the Union and going Independent and/or Salish-Shidhe (depending on the political mood). V-City is more than twice the distance and far more remote from "Mother Russia" than Seattle is from "Uncle Samada". 3, But the densities is what allows for social organization to reach higher and higher levels. Also, density equates to social and political threshold, which is a major issue when determining infrastructure.

What rule? I don't remember that one in 4e?
Running is a Simple Action, regardless.

You would make me dig... I never remember the name.... "Superior Position" covers some of it now. Interception covers the rest of it. It used to be blatantly "Attack of Opportunity" because someone was attempting to break from combat without defending ones self.

T:SH was written by a Russian, obviously, while SoA apparently wasn't. But compared to 6WA, it's still Tolsoevsky.

I don't recall TSH being written by one, but that's fine. The material in 6WA I am constantly forgetting for some reason.

They'd be citizens of a hostile state on the territory of an autocratic country. That's rarely good for your health; and even if acquiring weapons itself is hardly a problem, getting them across a border where border skirmishes happen can be problematic. Even if successful, the amount of matériel brought in a run is incomparable to what an open undisrupted logistics chain is capable of bringing in the same time.

Not necessarily on the first account. Rebels may have citizenship in "the country they escaped too". Any for that matter, anyone not declared dead/deceased during the original uprising were still natives of the Russian state. Moving in/out of Yakut ... okay, yeah, that might be true.

How do you feel about my Irkutsk writeup, then?

I am still absorbing it to be honest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Whenever I am not 100% (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) certain of material, I approach critiquing it slower. Something I used to use as a cautionary measure during our old days of game testing for FASA.

[NeoJudas]

Okay, I'm back. Re-read your Irkutsk and Vladivostok amendments (I'll call 'em that until CGL greenlights production). Irkutsk needs more beef to it because it is the proverbial apex of the Transsib Railway. Think of it as Wednesday to each directions Monday. I do appreciate the artwork however, because even though it is not end-product ready, it helps to break-up the text and shadowtalk. It also lends a bit of an idea to what you might be thinking or envisioning with regards to the write-ups. Kudos on that from me. I will see if I can find the stuff we had regarding the paper mills and fishing industry that were once rich in Irkutsk.

My initial overall summary/opinion is good. It is obvious your background and focus is military and not necessarily political-science (where I'm likely headed for new life). I am going to drop a link to your content to my game group here so that they can peruse it and maybe we can help you "playtest" some of the ideas along the way where possible. Keeping in mind, our games are more power-scaled than most and magic-heavy to boot ... so I'll try to skim the bias where I can on feedback.

That being said, the one thing I would REALLY like is an updated map of V-Town and Amursky Bay as well as Golden Horn Harbor. I very much liked the indications of an expanding underground cityscape, as I've often wondered why we as people in general haven't done that more if just to get the insulation benefits and get us out of the way of Tornadoes here in the Midwest US. In V-City, it means away from the obnoxious winters.

I think I would also like to tackle perhaps some of the chaos that surrounds Lake Baikal. At the same time, perhaps expand what would make the Lake region more interesting to Individuals and Megas both (hence, heightening Shadowrun potentials).

I can also help you *some* with regards to larger, non-corporate, organizations throughout the area. I liked the touch regarding the Russian Orthodoxy, and think that could still be expanded upon to help enrich things a bit. Maybe not tons, but some here and there perhaps ... including the Church trying to reach more directly to the East.

I will also edit out some of what's happening in our games, because a few of the PC's have decided that the "Hardliner Yakuza" and "Triads" within V-City have overstayed their welcome (as a partial response to what happened to Hestaby in Storm Front). A turn of actions that "Native Yak Clan" (formed during the Yomi years) and the Vory I'm sure will both appreciate, as may the Seoulpa.

[Fatum]

The attributes on the page are the final attributes, not ones yet to be adjusted.

And yet smart armour has always counted separate (because of the separate rules involved), and I believe there are published stats for vehicles with default smart armour high enough to reasonably presume it is added to the rest of it, not makes up everything but 2 or something

Okay... first of all, a Spirit can be dual-natured if it wishes to be so, some part of it always remains on the Astral, regardless of Manifestation or Materialization status.

Beg your pardon, is that in the rules? Magic is not my strongest suit, but I'm pretty sure Dual-Natured is a narrowly defined critter power, one the spirits do not possess in their stat blocks.

And Assensing is the fancy word for "Astral Perception". Different medium or not, it remains a perception test.

I can't find anything in the rules on the Assensing Tests being Perception Tests. If anything, the chapterette called Using Perception uses the narrow definition: tests related to the Perception skill; as do the examples before it.

1, And the combined populations of those cities is what in SR? Hell, what is it in 2010 and the last major census data out of Russia?

You can easily find the census data on the internet (even on wiki), but let's just say the population there is rather low, about 10 million in the million-men cities. The Yakutian population appears rather overblown, unless everyone up and left for the North at some moment of time.

2, Seattle and the UCAS, as an analogy, is a city always on the verge of seceding from the Union and going Independent and/or Salish-Shidhe (depending on the political mood). V-City is more than twice the distance and far more remote from "Mother Russia" than Seattle is from "Uncle Samada". 3, But the densities is what allows for social organization to reach higher and higher levels. Also, density equates to social and political threshold, which is a major issue when determining infrastructure.

I'm just going by precedent: if Seattle can be an enclave for forty years, I see no reason for Vladivostok to somehow fall apart the moment the Transsib is lost/

You would make me dig... I never remember the name.... "Superior Position" covers some of it now. Interception covers the rest of it. It used to be blatantly "Attack of Opportunity" because someone was attempting to break from combat without defending ones self.

Found it, p.161, Interception. You get to make a free attack, and if you deal damage, the opponent's move is broken.

I don't recall TSH being written by one, but that's fine. The material in 6WA I am constantly forgetting for some reason.

It's rather obvious to me that the writer at least knew Russian and either lived or stayed in Russia. Maybe not the author but someone who helped him.

Not necessarily on the first account. Rebels may have citizenship in "the country they escaped too". Any for that matter, anyone not declared dead/deceased during the original uprising were still natives of the Russian state. Moving in/out of Yakut ... okay, yeah, that might be true.

Citizenship is an interesting matter. Supposedly, if Russia did not recognize the Yakut, it'd still think the Yakutians its citizens (although, of course, a SIN would contain the details on living area). We can presume that was the case during the initial uprising, since the Internal Troops were used to quell it.
Minding that this time the Army is used, and it is normally only used against foreign states, we can presume their citizenship is at least suspended.

I am still absorbing it to be honest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Whenever I am not 100% (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) certain of material, I approach critiquing it slower. Something I used to use as a cautionary measure during our old days of game testing for FASA.

Fine then, feel free to blast the thing apart :3

[Fatum]

Okay, I'm back. Re-read your Irkutsk and Vladivostok amendments (I'll call 'em that until CGL greenlights production).

Uh, I'm afraid you're misundestanding the canon level of this draft. CGL is not involved in any way, and it started as an attempt to write an alternative to the horrendous War!
Granted, if CGL suddenly offers me to publish it, I likely won't argue too much, but it's written without future publishing in mind - so I'm not saving up space, not thinking how it'll all look on paper, stealing art, etc.

Irkutsk needs more beef to it because it is the proverbial apex of the Transsib Railway. Think of it as Wednesday to each directions Monday.

I agree it lacks a certain something, but I'm running low on ideas, and the existing sources don't help either.

I do appreciate the artwork however, because even though it is not end-product ready, it helps to break-up the text and shadowtalk. It also lends a bit of an idea to what you might be thinking or envisioning with regards to the write-ups. Kudos on that from me. I will see if I can find the stuff we had regarding the paper mills and fishing industry that were once rich in Irkutsk.

Those are partly placeholders, to be fair. I haven't found any landscapes that'd fit the cities described, so maybe I'll rip something from the old books that works for the mood.
Or maybe I'll just add maps for the major cities (Moscow, Peter, Vladivostok at least) and call it a day.

My initial overall summary/opinion is good. It is obvious your background and focus is military and not necessarily political-science (where I'm likely headed for new life). I am going to drop a link to your content to my game group here so that they can peruse it and maybe we can help you "playtest" some of the ideas along the way where possible. Keeping in mind, our games are more power-scaled than most and magic-heavy to boot ... so I'll try to skim the bias where I can on feedback.

I am en engineer, and it's showing. When describing a city turns into "there's this industry here and that industry there", it kinda sucks that I can't come up with novel ideas. This was intended to be a cowritten fan project, so the defects of one-man writing are starting to show.

That being said, the one thing I would REALLY like is an updated map of V-Town and Amursky Bay as well as Golden Horn Harbor. I very much liked the indications of an expanding underground cityscape, as I've often wondered why we as people in general haven't done that more if just to get the insulation benefits and get us out of the way of Tornadoes here in the Midwest US. In V-City, it means away from the obnoxious winters.

I've talked about it with fexes, and I have his preliminary agreement to make those.
However, I feel capable of making those myself should the need arise.

I think I would also like to tackle perhaps some of the chaos that surrounds Lake Baikal. At the same time, perhaps expand what would make the Lake region more interesting to Individuals and Megas both (hence, heightening Shadowrun potentials).

I am planning to discuss it in more detail in the Yakut chapter, but yeah, sure, it makes sense to touch upon at least the chief motivators in the Russian one.

I can also help you *some* with regards to larger, non-corporate, organizations throughout the area. I liked the touch regarding the Russian Orthodoxy, and think that could still be expanded upon to help enrich things a bit. Maybe not tons, but some here and there perhaps ... including the Church trying to reach more directly to the East.

Any help is appreciated.

[Fatum]

Gods, I've been doing research for writing the part on Awakened Yakut - it's strange, really. Nowadays, there is no single city larger than a million inhabitants in what is to be Awakened Yakut - but somehow 19 million people are supposed to live in it. And it's with everyone in the Metahuman Zone.
Okay, we can suppose that some neoprimitivist tribes are allowed out of the Metahuman Zone, and write a couple of millions of people of on that (although the real indigenous peoples do not live in communities all that large). Where is the rest supposed to go? Are Magadan and Yakutsk (built on permafrost) cities larger than today's Berlin?
What do all these people eat?

[NeoJudas]

Gods, I've been doing research for writing the part on Awakened Yakut - it's strange, really. Nowadays, there is no single city larger than a million inhabitants in what is to be Awakened Yakut - but somehow 19 million people are supposed to live in it. And it's with everyone in the Metahuman Zone.

I would argue/debate with the original contributors that the population number has to do with some divided areas. It may also have to do with some population displacement.

Okay, we can suppose that some neoprimitivist tribes are allowed out of the Metahuman Zone, and write a couple of millions of people of on that (although the real indigenous peoples do not live in communities all that large). Where is the rest supposed to go? Are Magadan and Yakutsk (built on permafrost) cities larger than today's Berlin?
What do all these people eat?

Magadan is what? 45K? Yakutsh I seem to recall not being over 55K or so at the turn of the millinea??? (butchered that spelling). Raw numbers of 19M... okay,

Start with knowns, even if it means backpedalling....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia.... the Wikipedia article itself directly states that most of the population lives along the southern zone paralleling the Transsib Railroad. Allow for population displacement, and who knows how big some of that is. I do envision Irkutsk for instance being substantially larger given the position it holds and the megas involved, SK and Evo starting with Shiawase and Aztechnology not far behind given their own portfolio concentrations.

While skimming it ... and avoiding the Federal Encyclopedia ... we run into this as a base... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic ... this is likely to be the "Foundation of Yakut" as the Shadowrun world knows it now. Check out that population number and then really start to gasp. Doesn't even break 1 million.

Okay, now I'm going to try to point out some things that may defy your understandings of social logic, but I am hoping you will bear with me. That population of 19M for Shadowrun's era is because of the expansion beyond the Sakha Republic westwards from the original map. Don't go south obviously. Manchuria, Mongolia and North Korea were their own issues. And we know now that Turkestan was formed out of all the other "stans" in the southern and western territories. What we do have left is a super-massive territory, 8th largest in the World by modern standards and filled-to-the-brim with (para)natural resources. We also know that the NAN is the northeastern neighbor with the TPA touching all along the northern-most coast (for some reason).

In the era of Shadowrun, especially the first three decades, you were dealing with something truly frightening. Goblinization. Most Orks and Trolls (and all sub-variants thereof) when occurred, would have been ostracized, banished and even just flat killed. Those that could would have run for anything resembling safety. Sakha (Yakut) province was arising as a territory that historically one could "get lost in" as people do today. How many people goblinized? What were those original numbers? 1 in 6? 10% if you believe the texts, but the texts indicate that this was a global percentage, an average. So some regions, especially those with higher levels of mana (hello???) would likely have somewhat heavier percentage expressions.

You also had a LOT of people who began to really fear for their lives against a government that was beyond the breaking point. Imagine the social order of that time for a moment. Put yourself there. Make it industrial aged, but not overwhelmingly religious. Watch the police and military move in to secure a variety of resources (including the Ob River Basin and the Reservoir, as well as the Pulp Mills along the south-eastern shores of Baikal opposite Irkutsk... mills that could readily be converted to other uses if needs be because they were, for the most part, vacant properties now.

*IF* you start with a population of 80 million throughout all of russia, and transform let's say 12& (up from global average of 10), that gives you a conversion population of 9.6 million, all of whom are spread out across the territories, but many of which are along the Transsib Railway or have immediate access to it. Russian government starts to offer to these "changed" the opportunity to get away from "civil unrest and prejudice" by allowing them to relocate willingly. How many would take it? Seriously... how many?

And then, just as the population is reaching an end to the transitioning period after Globalization, the (Para)Natural forces deeper within the interior lash back out at their now dramatically altered environmental socialscape (and the ensuing drain on local resources to feed everyone) you create the Wars and Conflicts that are indicated within the SR texts so far (although, no real justice was done to what likely is the real stories here).

Amidst all of this, you throw in VITAS, the Rise of the Megas (and the fact the Russians do not have any of them home-turf in the beginning for all their industrial might) and a few decades, and you get a lot of change. You also get a population who relocated... a HUGE POPULATION change. Now insofar as to where this population went, well... do you know what one of the strangest responses to stress is?

We call it Sex.

And Metahumanity is equally part of it's Humanist parent. The difference is that Orks and Trolls have differing gestation periods, but the former being somewhat faster in the earlier generations of Shadowrun than their Human parents. Goes with the shorter life expectancy.

I expect there are significant population changes. I would imagine Yakutsk is significantly larger, but not demonstratively so. I say this because to make it much larger would require massive resources transported into the interior ... something that the "militant" paraforces of Yakut don't want. That means locations near the Transsib on the Yakut/Sakha side of the border get expanded and/or built whole-cloth. It also means likely major expansion of cities like Magadan and inner cities like Severobaikalsk (northern shore of the Lake).

It is time to face facts with regards to certain elements... and the reason I blinked earlier when you mentioned that TSH had a russian contributor. I Yakutsk and Siberia both need massive work. And much of what we debated earlier in the realm of "war powers" and "militaries" needs to be seriously thought of.

[Fatum]

First, it's established that metahuman hate did not rock Russia as hard as many nations (which made Vladivostok a safe haven for the Japanese metas, prompting a massive exile, for example).
Second, have you ever wondered why the Siberia is so sparsely populated, except for the southern edge? The answer is really simple: those lands are extremely inhospitable. Half of them are tundra, with all the vibrancy of reindeer moss over permafrost. Half of the rest are swamps. The climate is extreme continental, with winters easily as cold as -50, and summers as hot as +45 easily. Soils are poor, and vegetation period extremely short (why do you think taiga is made up of conifers, not leaf-bearing trees?) And let's of course not forget the swarms of midge that ignore any known repellents.
Which is why the locals mostly survive on fishing, hunting and nomadic deer herding- none of those capable of supporting a dense population.
Both Yakutsk and Magadan are cities built on permafrost, which means taking pains to anchor the foundations of the building to the deep permafrost which won't shift during the summer, all the while ensuring that same foundation does not melt the permafrost itself. Constructing infrastructure runs into similar problems. Which is why housing and feeding millions will be at the very least extremely problematic, especially with metahumans or metahuman tech limited to the metahuman zone. You say they'd settle along the southern border - but there are border skirmishes there, which in my opinion prevents any kind of large-scale building projects...

On a side note: why the hell is English the second most popular language in Russia? Western Russia I can see using German (with SK and Zeta ImpChem all over the place), Eastern Russia Japanese, thanks to Evo influence and the migrants...

[Nath]

On a side note: why the hell is English the second most popular language in Russia? Western Russia I can see using German (with SK and Zeta ImpChem all over the place), Eastern Russia Japanese, thanks to Evo influence and the migrants...

Because the Sixth World Almanac reported as "Primary languages" those who were listed as "Major languages spoken" in Shadows of Asia, without the related percentage. According to SoA, 98% of the population spoke Russian, and 10% spoke English. Those would mostly be the people who studied English as secondary language at school. Wikipedia mentions a 2002 census reporting 4.9% of Russian population spoke English. With the spread of Internet/Matrix and more foreign corporations as employers for the younger generations, the 10% figure may not be that far-fetched.

[Fatum]

We learn English in schools because the US is the leading economy of the world, and English is the modern lingua franca. In SR, Japan, if anyone, has that place, and Japanese holds the title.
And, as I said, SK and Zeta ImpChem are the corps with the largest footprint in Western Russia, Evo and other japanacorps in the East, and their corp languages are German and Japanese again, respectively.

[Nath]

And English will remain the lingua franca. Japanese is much more complicated to learn, and from a cultural point of view, the Japanese don't like when foreigners try to speak their language and mangle it. Whenever a corporation working languages are listed in Corporate Guide, English is either primary or secondary language. While Japanese is not used at Saeder-Krupp, Zeta-Impchem, Ares Macrotechnology, Aztechnology...

[NeoJudas]

English is the primary language of TRADE. That detail has not changed. All foreign exchange students come to the USA are required to learn English not just for the classes because it remains the language of International Trade. Now, that being said, and since we are dealing with Awakening considerations and all the Shadowrun Social Impact(s), I wouldn't argue English being diminished in demand, but at the same time, English is a melting pot language now, especially American English, which all but rapes and absorbs components of every additional/secondary language it comes into prolonged contact with. And, just for the fun to consider, European Countries as well as Middle-Eastern Nations utilize English as the Language of Trade, thus the overarcing demand for it.

BTW: I'm Keith... "K" from the old days of the ShadowRN List. I figure I want my legitimate name here as we progress forward.