[X] My Assistant

[AStarshipforAnts]

It really depends on your GM. Most of mine have said 'forget the rolling for your self-coded programs, take out the same amount of money for buying programs for the amount of snacks you bought and time you could have spent working.'

[sabs]

The problem is that the Shadow Run system is a Rating 1-6 system.

Programs over rating 7, and Technomancers BREAK THE GAME.
Going up against Threshold 12's and 24 will break the game.

A Shutdown action, for example, is hacking+exploit, Threshold System+Firewall(combat round)
That means you need 24 hits, or conversely roughly 90 dice.

Having your average commlink be a 3, a drek hot being a 5, Military grade being a 6-7 is a workable system.
If you make ZOG be rating 8, maybe 9 tops.

Much like Force 12 spirits break the game pretty stupidly, so do Rating 12 programs, Sprites, and Technomancers.

[Fortinbras]

I thought that was a purchasing cap. Otherwise nothing could be programmed beyond 10, and you should be calling us all out on every high rating program mentioned thus far.

The Rating 4 cap for Autosofts is because there is only so much a machine can learn about a skill, even in 2070. At rating 4, a machine can be quite deft at shooting or electronic warfare, but they can never be as adept as a skilled and dedicated metahuman at the same task. Once they do, they become an AI and get skill sets like the rest of us.
You can't program a SK to have the equivalent of a Rank 10 in, say, Medicine, when the most anyone can know about it is 7.

[Ryu]

I thought that was a purchasing cap. Otherwise nothing could be programmed beyond 10, and you should be calling us all out on every high rating program mentioned thus far.

I would. Agents/IC/Pilots are limited to rating 6, Autosofts to rating 4. Most other programs can have higher ratings now, but those are limited to rating 10.

[Ascalaphus]

Autosofts are basically skillsofts/Activesofts for machines - and are capped just like those (but with fewer Options to sneak around the limit.)

[longbowrocks]

So, basically you guys are saying that you can't code anything above the highest rating for sale in the book. However, I have never seen a rule about that before. You would think that if they intended the game to work that way, they would:
A. Not make it possible to get hardware ratings that exceed program max ratings.
B. Add a limit on coding ratings in the table on SR4A 228, similarly to how they limit purchasable items.
C. Mention the limit somewhere. Anywhere even.

Sorry guys. I'm not buying.

On a different note, why do some drones in WAR have rating 3 tacsofts since they can never be a member of a group that high?

[Yerameyahu]

Your argument is instead that the game is intended to be broken by programmers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Your argument is instead that the game is intended to be broken by programmers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

They pointed out its already broken. 20 dice without bonuses is pretty darn good.

I actually don't know what they were thinking, but it's no worse than magic, or using mundane and cyber to destroy anything below 25 armor in one hit with a holdout. It's just another thing that can go out of control.

If you're looking for balance, I'd like to point out that these other things can be done from char gen, whereas hackers and riggers need a while to rev up.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I thought that was a purchasing cap. Otherwise nothing could be programmed beyond 10, and you should be calling us all out on every high rating program mentioned thus far.

Nope it is an explicit Hardcap... Just sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And before War! Nothing above 6 would have been legit.

Actually, that is wrong... Unwired unlocked the Rating 6 Cap... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Nope it is an explicit Hardcap... Just sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sooo... Then mundane hacker is a dead-end niche that uses up most of your BP and will eventually be outclassed by any other archetype in the game? That's depressing.

[Yerameyahu]

This isn't WoW. You can be hacker+anything… and everyone should be something+hacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If 20 dice (Rating 6 programs) is broken enough, why do you need Rating 24? Hehe. My point is that these heights are accessible only to purpose-optimized programmers, apparently *aren't* achieved by megacorps, and only break things worse. Why would you want something in your game that is apparently impossible (for trillion-dollar companies), is unnecessary, and breaking? Binky and pornomancers aren't real characters.

[PoliteMan]

This isn't WoW. You can be hacker+anything… and everyone should be something+hacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If 20 dice (Rating 6 programs) is broken enough, why do you need Rating 24? Hehe. My point is that these heights are accessible only to purpose-optimized programmers, apparently *aren't* achieved by megacorps, and only break things worse. Why would you want something in your game that is apparently impossible (for trillion-dollar companies), is unnecessary, and breaking? Binky and pornomancers aren't real characters.

Technos are real. AIs are real. WAR is real. Who actually follows that R6 limit on the Matrix besides hackers? Again, why is R7+ so breaking for hackers but not for everyone else?

As for the crazy optimization, yeah, we're using that here ('cause it's fun) but even rolling 12 dice on you programming test (very low with software) will get you a rating 9-10 Common Use programs in a month or two. Heck, buying the hits on 12 dice will get you Analyze R9 in six weeks. Even forgetting hacking programs, Analyze, Command, and arguably Edit are all easy to acquire over R6 and very useful.

And TJ, where exactly is the hardcap on autosofts. I know program options specifically say they're limited to R1-6 unless otherwise mentioned but where does the R4 barrier for autosofts come from?

[longbowrocks]

I'm pretty sure he's just referencing the sales tables in the core book. In other words: if no one put it on the market, it doesn't exist.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Then all the example stats in Unwired are wrong. WAR! is war, facrissake. Nothing in it is intended to be used. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't know what this 'everyone else' you're talking about is. Technomancers are supposed to be special, and they pay ungodly karma for it; literally everyone shouldn't be able to surpass it for free.

That's also assuming that handwritten programs never degrade (crazy); like I said, either writing your own code is worthless, or totally broken. Either it's fully possible for any decent hacker (and therefore completely available to all corps), or it's too hard to bother with. If it's the former, it's just raising the barrier for entry and making mega-optimization a requirement (not an advantage). Unlike Binky or pornomancers, hackers don't particularly depend on crazy races, Qualities, or massive 'ware.

It's just about the same as giving all your characters milspec armor and crazy weapons for free: arms race. That's not fun, to me.

For the record, my position is 'revamp the coding rules entirely'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) People who invest in Logic and Programming should be able to get an edge (a reasonable one). But it shouldn't be a mere question of time (short time, to boot) for Joe Runner to get things that are better than an entire megacorp can make for their military and for ZO.
--

There are plenty of things on the market that players still can't get (nuclear subs, or simply rare F gear). There's no great reason to assume that you *can* make (but apparently not buy—even illegally) things that aren't on the gear tables. We know, for example, that there's a solid reason you can't get ActiveSofts above 4.

[longbowrocks]

*shrug* Then all the example stats in Unwired are wrong.

I think I missed something. What brought this on?

[longbowrocks]

I don't know what this 'everyone else' you're talking about is. Technomancers are supposed to be special, and they pay ungodly karma for it; literally everyone shouldn't be able to surpass it for free.

I hear you say this sort of thing about mundanes frequently. Does your GM give you guys inifinite resources and no consequences on a glitch when making availablity tests? To hear you talk Yerameyahu, by the end of the first session everyone in the game has 30 dice in guns, and the awakened chars have bored through Lofwyr's plot armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

That's also assuming that handwritten programs never degrade (crazy); like I said, either writing your own code is worthless, or totally broken. Either it's fully possible for any decent hacker (and therefore completely available to all corps), or it's too hard to bother with.

It's the ridiculous time requirements that get in the way. Even with 1/4 intervals, you have 20+ programs (total threshold of... a few hundred for high ratings?) you need to make for a full complement.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't understand your question. What do I say about mundanes? Availability tests *are* a complete joke, but I don't remember mentioning them.

More commonly, I see people talking about 1/8 intervals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think I mentioned earlier that there are 20+ programs total, but you really only need about 4-6 vitally. That's far fewer. (Don't forget the recurrent idea to use coder-drones, too, hehe.) It obviously depends on the exact configuration of rules, optional rules, house rules, etc. in play; overall, though, all the combinations fall into 'worthless' or 'broken'.

[longbowrocks]

I don't understand your question. Availability tests *are* a complete joke, but I don't remember mentioning them.

'everyone' can get it for 'free' is kind of your catchphrase when it comes to mundane abilities. That makes the whole process sound like the awakened characters can invest in all the things a mundane does at the same rate. Conversely, that implies the magic that awakened characters have is 'free', otherwise they'd be a little behind in terms of mundane investment.

More commonly, I see people talking about 1/8 intervals.

Lets stick with arguing RAW. Otherwise the possibilities branch endlessly.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah. I think you're misunderstanding me there, but let's focus on this thread. I'm saying that all hackers (anyone with a commlink and some skill points) can get programs (especially focusing on high-rating ones) for literally free. (Some cost, if you're renting the programming environment, or paying lifestyle—except you're spoofing your lifestyle, duh.) I'm not saying anything about 'mundanes', except to point out that technomancers pay through the nose to have powers that beat normal hackers (usually in one specific area only). That's kind of the opposite of your 'magic is free' point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1/4 time *is* bad enough, of course. I just wanted to point out the depths of the crazy. It honestly depends on how much time you have. If time becomes a valuable resource, then the GM should strictly allocate it, just like karma and cash. A lot of this discussion does assume that this isn't the case, I admit.

Since you mentioned it: I've never seen anyone roll a glitch. Ever. Even if they did, they simply aren't very damaging.

[PoliteMan]

I don't know what this 'everyone else' you're talking about is. Technomancers are supposed to be special, and they pay ungodly karma for it; literally everyone shouldn't be able to surpass it for free.

I don't know if you can call Technos special. There's two kinds of hacking user archetypes: hackers and Technos. Saying that half are "special" kinda ruins the "specialness". And that's ignoring AIs.

That's also assuming that handwritten programs never degrade (crazy); like I said, either writing your own code is worthless, or totally broken. Either it's fully possible for any decent hacker (and therefore completely available to all corps), or it's too hard to bother with. If it's the former, it's just raising the barrier for entry and making mega-optimization a requirement (not an advantage). Unlike Binky or pornomancers, hackers don't particularly depend on crazy races, Qualities, or massive 'ware.

Why? Don't get me wrong, megas, especially places like MCT zero zones, should totally have R7+ programs and systems. And we're not talking mega-optimization here (well, longbowrocks and I were but that's hardly typical). Since programming feeds off Logic, skill, program, and ware getting a decent enough dice pool for a R7+ doesn't require crazy optimization, it requires programming software and 7 dice from Logic/skills/ware. Once you're getting 3-4 hits, writing R7+ programs just takes time.

It's just about the same as giving all your characters milspec armor and crazy weapons for free: arms race. That's not fun, to me.

I see it differently. It's not giving out milspec armor, it's allowing you're players to eventually get milspec armor. Even if the hacker started programming after the first run, (presuming 1 run a month which seems standard), they won't have the new programs until the third run and they'll probably be just finishing up the coding. (presuming 6 weeks to program, say Analyze 9-10 and 2-ish weeks to program the optimization). If they want hacking programs, it'll take significantly longer. How is (excepting some of the crazy optimized builds that everyone has) letting the hacker get a moderate boost from an R9-10 program every 2-3 gaming sessions gamebreaking? Even the most optimized hacker is still going to take months in-game to get what we would consider a basic R12 package (like Analyze, Stealth, Exploit, and Blackhammer). Compare that to a techno who's been threading R12 from chargen or a Magic 6 mage or a "Super" Sam.

There are plenty of things on the market that players still can't get (nuclear subs, or simply rare F gear). There's no great reason to assume that you *can* make (but apparently not buy—even illegally) things that aren't on the gear tables. We know, for example, that there's a solid reason you can't get ActiveSofts above 4.

But we know they exist. In fact, there is no theoretical max on programs. AI's get their inherent programs which they can raise with Karma. Give an AI 70-80 Karma and he'll break R12, give him hundreds of Karma and he'll break R20. Give him millions of karma and he'll have R1,000,000. We know they exist. There's just no obvious way for hackers to get there besides programming.

[Yerameyahu]

It *is* ignoring AIs. Too minor (and *different*) to bother with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Technomancers *are* special. How could they not be? If anything, they're more special than mages; at least equally so.

How easy it is to get 7+ (though I think we're usually talking way more than 7) is exactly my point. If it's easy, then everyone else (the corps) already did it, and better. Their basic installations should have it, not their super-max zones.

You can't say 'except for the optimized builds', because they totally outclass the poor normals. And they're not monstrosities that the GM can smack off the table. They're just guys with high Logic and skill, basically. So, optimized is a requirement, and being broken is the norm.

They don't exist. AIs are the special-est of special cases, next to maybe a free sprite or something. AI programs are unique, unless you're saying other people can copy and use them. There's not 'no obvious' way to get there, there's no way at all. (Not that AIPCs have it easy, anyway. Program max = LOG, which they'll have to raise along with all those programs.) With free (non-limited) programming for normal hackers, they'll easily far surpass the AIs. I'd be mad if I paid 110 BP to be a creature of the Matrix, and then get mangled on my home turf by a not-insanely-optimized hacker.

[longbowrocks]

Ah. I think you're misunderstanding me there, but let's focus on this thread.

I was ignoring it since I knew what you meant, but it just crops up so often I finally had to comment for anyone who may be misunderstanding.

I'm saying that all hackers (anyone with a commlink and some skill points) can get programs (especially focusing on high-rating ones) for literally free. (Some cost, if you're renting the programming environment, or paying lifestyle—except you're spoofing your lifestyle, duh.) I'm not saying anything about 'mundanes', except to point out that technomancers pay through the nose to have powers that beat normal hackers (usually in one specific area only). That's kind of the opposite of your 'magic is free' point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But people still need a commlink to run their programs on, and quite a few skills in comparison to any other archetype, and five bucks to bribe their GM to give them 4 months of downtime before the next mission. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since you mentioned it: I've never seen anyone roll a glitch. Ever. Even if they did, they simply aren't very damaging.

Really? What sort of people do you play with? Statistically that's unbelievable since someone generally ends up rolling a dump skill/stat.

*shrug* Then all the example stats in Unwired are wrong.

Still curious. Where did this come from?

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I see what you mean about 'free'. I'm assuming everyone will have a decent commlink—it's a requirement for running, period. I disagree that a hacker needs more skills than others. If anything, I say fewer. They also don't need Wires 3, or Power Focus 4, or to be a SURGEd Dryad, etc. It's easy to be a good hacker, and it's easy to be a great one… which means it's easy to get programs that (fluff-wise) beat anything up to military-grade. … And don't degrade (I disagree, of course), and aren't Registered, and cost 0 Nuyen, and can be copied infinitely to all your friends, drones, devices…

(This is an aside, so I'll be brief, and I'm talking just about my friends/table. People tend to roll what they're good at. The troll doesn't try to face, etc. Few players hyper-specialize either, so they have more skills in the 'decent' range. I'm not saying it's impossible, just relating my experience. As I said, glitches are far from crippling anyway. In programming, the worst they likely do is waste a little more time.)

Unwired gives sample nodes/security setups; if it's so easy to get high-rating programs, it's unreasonable for the sample nodes to be so low. It's the 'corps already have thousands of people just like you' concept. Some people think runners are more special than that. *shrug* I think Einsteins are vanishingly rare.

[longbowrocks]

With free (non-limited) programming for normal hackers, they'll easily far surpass the AIs. I'd be mad if I paid 110 BP to be a creature of the Matrix, and then get mangled on my home turf by a not-insanely-optimized hacker.

The programming is limited to device rating (or device rating + 6). It seems to me that technomancers have a higher limit than hackers, but fall behind in that time between chargen and high karma endgame. AI's have higher limits than either of them, but fall behind in the short game.