[X] My Assistant

[Sengir]

I fail to see how simple longevity leads to brilliance or tactical mastery

There is of course the wisdom of old ages, but primarily I think you got the cart before the horse: Only people with foresight, the ability to adapt etc. would have made it into the 6th world. Any other immortal would have found plenty of opportunity to die from something else than age or Black Death over the millennia.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

There is of course the wisdom of old ages, but primarily I think you got the cart before the horse: Only people with foresight, the ability to adapt etc. would have made it into the 6th world. Any other immortal would have found plenty of opportunity to die from something else than age or Black Death over the millennia.

Soooo...
Survival of the fttest?

[MJBurrage]

I fail to see how simple longevity leads to brilliance or tactical mastery when longevity is their primary stick, immunity to age and disease protects one better then immunity to violence would.

Immortal elves are—according to the rules—Immune to Age, Disease, Pathogens, & Poisons. That does not make them smart, carfty, or more capable in general. It does give them a better chance to to live long enough to develop survival skills.

Being born an immortal elf does not mean you will live for thousands of years and rack up enough magical power to max all the skills listed in the rules. If a young immortal elf is not crafty enough, than someone will take them out.

The immortal elves of note are those at the intersection of a Venn diagram, both unaging and crafty enough to survive. There were probably hundreds (if not thousands) of immortal elves born in the Fourth World, the dozen or so craftiest still survive. That level of survival instinct is truly beyond my imagining, and yet they have it. So I say again, that if players are able to get the drop on them than the GM just did not play them well enough.

So could a mortal fencer get good enough to win a stand-up duel against an immortal? sure. Would a shot to the head kill an immortal if it hits? sure. But the immortals have survived over 5000 years of others trying. The odds of a player in any Shadowrun game played by the rules being the one to finally get through all the planning and precautions are zero.

[CanRay]

Immortal elves are—according to the rules—Immune to Age, Disease, Pathogens, & Poisons. That does not make them smart, carfty, or more capable in general.

It also makes it really, really difficult to get drunk. Which, when you consider some of the days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries some of these folks have had...

[redwulf25]

So what has he been doing for the past 20 years? All of them? Is he keeping up with all of the magic, all of the technology, all of everything that's changing every single day, from nanites to technomancers to bug spirits?

I'm pretty sure the IE's and GD's reaction to Bug Spirits was something along the lines of "Not them again!" The magic, tech, and nanites I'd be surprised if some of them didn't have a hand in their invention.

[Sengir]

Soooo...
Survival of the fttest?

Yep. Social Darwinism is a sinister direction, but I think in this case it's a good explanation.

[Fatum]

So could a mortal fencer get good enough to win a stand-up duel against an immortal? sure. Would a shot to the head kill an immortal if it hits? sure. But the immortals have survived over 5000 years of others trying. The odds of a player in any Shadowrun game played by the rules being the one to finally get through all the planning and precautions are zero.

I wouldn't say it's zero, but it's surely an incredibly small chance. Never say "no, you can't under any circumstances" to your players - and hell, I can think of a dozen scenarios for an IE to risk his life, or even sacrifice it.
Consider, for example, Frosty - she's not all that powerful, and at least two IEs are incredibly invested in her...

[suoq]

So could a mortal fencer get good enough to win a stand-up duel against an immortal? sure. Would a shot to the head kill an immortal if it hits? sure. But the immortals have survived over 5000 years of others trying. The odds of a player in any Shadowrun game played by the rules being the one to finally get through all the planning and precautions are zero.

So, what you're saying is that a player character should never get close to one of these, either through electronic, physical, or astral means. Stats are meaningless because in your campaign your characters will never actually encounter any of these beings. And that's fine. Gods don't die when they don't fight mortals.

I'd be surprised if some of them didn't have a hand in their invention.

However, that means that others didn't have a hand. For any given immortal, while they may have had their fingers in many pies, I'd be hard pressed to name one that had his fingers in all of them. "The dragon himself (Dunkelzahn) seems fascinated by the concept of virtual reality, its applications and implications." The word "fascinated" to me indicates "surprise" and anything that can surprise you in Shadowrun can hold something that can kill you. These may be beings that kept up with changes for thousands of years, but things are changing quickly now, faster then ever before, and if they're changing more quickly than an immortal can follow, that immortal is risking death.

[Grinder]

Can we get back to a discussion about the style/ format of the new sourcebooks? Less to no metaplot, but NPCs, locations, and adventure seeds only?

[Fatum]

However, that means that others didn't have a hand. For any given immortal, while they may have had their fingers in many pies, I'd be hard pressed to name one that had his fingers in all of them. "The dragon himself (Dunkelzahn) seems fascinated by the concept of virtual reality, its applications and implications." The word "fascinated" to me indicates "surprise" and anything that can surprise you in Shadowrun can hold something that can kill you.

Please explain how VR can kill Dunkelzahn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

These may be beings that kept up with changes for thousands of years, but things are changing quickly now, faster then ever before, and if they're changing more quickly than an immortal can follow, that immortal is risking death.

If things are changing too fast for an immortal to keep up, they're changing far too fast for mortals to keep up.

Can we get back to a discussion about the style/ format of the new sourcebooks? Less to no metaplot, but NPCs, locations, and adventure seeds only?

I don't remember all that many statblocks in the recent books, so in what comes to styles, we'll just have to see.

[Patrick Goodman]

Can we get back to a discussion about the style/ format of the new sourcebooks? Less to no metaplot, but NPCs, locations, and adventure seeds only?

Probably not as much metaplot as some would like, but I've seen some of the character writeups and some of the fiction. Metaplot is dealt with. The writeup I'm doing doesn't touch on a lot of the bigger metaplot, but there's bits and pieces of it in there. It's looking pretty cool so far, from where I sit, but I'm also on record as saying I like things cinematic and I like big names in my games, even if they are only dropping by on their way to doing something else. I'm not afraid of cameos.

And I'm kind of enjoying the IE discussion, though I suppose it should go find a thread of its own....

[Doc Byte]

Give 'em stats and they can be killed. - Reminds me of my Star Wars group back then. When our Jedi Knight was starting to develop better stats than Luke Skywalker we had to enforce some caps on his Force skills.

[Patrick Goodman]

"The dragon himself (Dunkelzahn) seems fascinated by the concept of virtual reality, its applications and implications." The word "fascinated" to me indicates "surprise" and anything that can surprise you in Shadowrun can hold something that can kill you.

Please explain how VR can kill Dunkelzahn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

While he's at it, maybe he can explain how "fascinate" necessarily equates with "surprise." There's very little overlap there.

[suoq]

If things are changing too fast for an immortal to keep up, they're changing far too fast for mortals to keep up.

Mortals aren't keeping up. They're getting killed by it. Huge numbers of them are afraid of everything out there that they don't understand. Many of them are trying to kill what they don't understand before what they don't understand kills them.

Please explain how VR can kill Dunkelzahn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
While he's at it, maybe he can explain how "fascinate" necessarily equates with "surprise." There's very little overlap there.

from your link to fascinate: "unique power, personal charm, unusual nature, or some other special quality"
from your link to surprise: "as through unexpectedness" (unexpected occurs a lot in that set of definations).
If you can't see a link between unexpected and unique, unusual, and special, then I can't help you find one. It's your problem, not mine.

As far as killing Dunkelzahn, it appears someone beat your runners to it. All that took was an explosion. And all his years of experience taught him one lesson you're not getting. Dragons need to have a will for when they die.

[Sephiroth]

As far as killing Dunkelzahn, it appears someone beat your runners to it. All that took was an explosion. And all his years of experience taught him one lesson you're not getting. Dragons need to have a will for when they die.

No one killed Dunkelzahn. Where have you been, bro?

@Critias, Patrick Goodman: Are you guys actually allowed to tell us whether Street Legends will feature any IE's, at least from the standpoint of their being IE's? I.e. (no pun intended) suppose one of the characters covered is Prince Lugh Surehand. Would Surehand in this example be featured as a powerful NPC because he is an Immortal Elf, and focus on that as such, or would he be featured more because of his political importance in Tir Tairngire?

[Patrick Goodman]

from your link to fascinate: "unique power, personal charm, unusual nature, or some other special quality"
from your link to surprise: "as through unexpectedness" (unexpected occurs a lot in that set of definations).
If you can't see a link between unexpected and unique, unusual, and special, then I can't help you find one. It's your problem, not mine.

You do enjoy reaching, don't you?

I can be fascinated by a lot of things that don't surprise me. I'm finding fascination right now in the actions of my son, whose having a ball with some oversize Legos. This is not surprising at all, but it's quite fascinating. Dunkie found a lot of things fascinating (including humanity), but I never saw that he was surprised by most of it.

As far as killing Dunkelzahn, it appears someone beat your runners to it. All that took was an explosion.

You're new here, aren't you? That wasn't a simple explosion. You've clearly got a great deal to catch up on; you should really go find some of the novels and start doing just that.

In the meantime...you're not making a very solid case for immortals not keeping up.

[suoq]

My bad. I skipped the novels completely. In the meantime, if you want the immortals to be Mary Sues, go ahead. I don't see it as my job to convince you, just my job to explain how I see things and why.

[Patrick Goodman]

@Critias, Patrick Goodman: Are you guys actually allowed to tell us whether Street Legends will feature any IE's, at least from the standpoint of their being IE's? I.e. (no pun intended) suppose one of the characters covered is Prince Lugh Surehand. Would Surehand in this example be featured as a powerful NPC because he is an Immortal Elf, and focus on that as such, or would he be featured more because of his political importance in Tir Tairngire?

No, probably not a good idea to go there.

That said, most of the IEs aren't a big deal because they're IEs...they're a big deal because of the stuff they do in the world. To use your example, is Lugh Surehand more impressive because he's 10,000 years old, or because of his political history in the Sixth World?

[Stahlseele]

There is of course the wisdom of old ages, but primarily I think you got the cart before the horse: Only people with foresight, the ability to adapt etc. would have made it into the 6th world. Any other immortal would have found plenty of opportunity to die from something else than age or Black Death over the millennia.

So CREEEED is indeed (a) Harlekin?

[CanRay]

Please explain how VR can kill Dunkelzahn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Early manifesting Technomancers killed President Dunkelzahn! That's why they should all be rounded up and slaughtered!

For the children!

...

Ew, I need a shower now.

[Bigity]

Don't care about or want stats, but backgrounds/histories on major players (not just runners) would be a possible good read, world/lore-filling out kind of thing.

Regional 'legends' should be covered in location books.

[Wakshaani]

Now, while the IEs did all integrate fairly well, I have to say that, working retail and trying to explain to people born circa WWII about internet use, viruses, and how to connect a printer to their computer is ... challenging.

I suppose part of the magical ceremony that makes 'em immortal also makes 'em immune to "brain stagation". Maybe they have a spirit that they use as an auxillary memory device?

"Hey, Spirit of Man Charlie ... hold this."
"Sure thing boss! What is it?"
"My memories that run from 3200 BC to 80 BC ... those were some DULL years!"
"I'll be quite careful with them, sir." *poof*

[CanRay]

Now, while the IEs did all integrate fairly well, I have to say that, working retail and trying to explain to people born circa WWII about internet use, viruses, and how to connect a printer to their computer is ... challenging.

Try working tech support for those people and having to deal with Windows ME and Wireless USB Dongles.

Now, if you excuse me, my corner is calling me.

[Jhaiisiin]

@Lurker: This keeps bugging me. You keep blaming White Wolf and their WoD for immortal elves, which is utter nonsense. For christ sake, it was in the Lord of the Rings novels. Possibly novels by other authors before that. That's the 1950's crapping all over your Shadowrun, not friggin' WW. If you're going to toss inane blame about, at least target correctly.

@CanRay: Ugh, don't remind me of that stuff. Windows ME, aka Windows Crayola Edition... and gods was it horrible.

[Patrick Goodman]

In the meantime, if you want the immortals to be Mary Sues, go ahead.

Mary Sues...I was wondering when that was going to come back into the conversation. The IEs aren't Mary Sues for anyone currently writing for Shadowrun; they were there a long time before any of us started writing for the game. That's a baseless, and frankly silly, assertion.

That said...I don't need any Mary Sues. I had one put into the game for me years ago, and I finally got the chance to kill him. Don't have any plans on putting another one back in with this project.