[X] My Assistant

[Patrick Goodman]

I'm more interested in whatever happened to 99 bottles.

Still looks to be on the schedule; other than that, no clue.

[Patrick Goodman]

Great, so I can sit on the porch and gripe at the depraved state of today's youth. Where's my rocking chair?

You can find them at the main supply depot down the street. Get one with a padded seat, trust me.

[CanRay]

You can find them at the main supply depot down the street. Get one with a padded seat, trust me.

I'm waiting for the "Rocking Chair and Shotgun" sale bonanza that's been promised. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Method]

Back in my day the rocking chairs always had padded seats... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fatum]

My bad. I skipped the novels completely. In the meantime, if you want the immortals to be Mary Sues, go ahead. I don't see it as my job to convince you, just my job to explain how I see things and why.

God, "Mary Sue", the ultimate argument. Except Mary Sue is by definition a writer's self-insert which is unreasonably powerful for the system. Immortal Elves fulfil neither criterion, not any more than Great Dragons or corporate movers and shakers.
Yeah, they might not be the pinnacle of writer's ability, and there's no reason to use them in your campaign, but they make a lot of sense on the whole Earthdawn=>Shadowrun history scale, and make a fine example of secret magical stuff to liven up the system.

[Patrick Goodman]

Well, it seems to be that's the way CGL wants to go...

No metaplot, just random NPCs, locations and half-assed adventure seeds.

Grinder, I've never lied to you before and I'm not about to start now: I can't speak to Conspiracy Theories or Corporate Intrigue, because I haven't seen any of the drafts (not even sure that any have been turned in, but I'm not the guy they come to, so take that for what it's worth)...but I can say that Artifacts Unbound moves the metaplot forward bigtime.

[Patrick Goodman]

Way back when this book was called Prime Runners, and i admit to getting alot of use out of it. So personally I'm looking forward to the new book. I especially hope to catch up on some dearly loved NPC's.

Here's the deal: Primer Runners had a lot of characters that no one had ever heard of, and almost none of them have been heard from since...and that's just fine with most of the rest of the world, me included. Seriously. Without going to the book, name three characters that appear in there.

Street Legends > Prime Runners. You've heard of most of these people, and people have wanted to know more about them for a long time. I'm pretty damned enthusiastic about this book, more enthused than I've been for a Shadowrun book in a long time. Yes, I'm biased; I'm writing for it. Even if I weren't, though, this book would light me up.

[TheFr0g]

Luckily, as GMs and book-owners we have a magic wand that can undo all the damage that Catalyst has done. It is called a black sharpie. If you don't want Lofwyr to have stats, take that magic wand and strike across those blasphemous statistics. By the god-like power of your hand and the Sharpie corporation combined... he is once again invincible.

Seriously, if you dont like something don't use it. Maybe someone wants to run a campaign where their runners have to fight Lofwyr and Harlequin in a steel cage, Catalyst is giving them some stats, it isn't like this is a video game and you're locked into it.

[CanRay]

On the one hand, we find out about all these folks we've wanted to know more about for a long time!

On the other hand, yes, if you stat them, they will try to kill them. S-K Ketchup, "It goes great with crunchy things!"

On the other-other hand, maybe we'd be better off not knowing. Remember what happened when we found more things about Richard Villiers...

On the other-other-other hand, this *IS* the JackPoint, how accurate the information is can be hotly debated. Misinformation is a key to a lot of things after all, and even high-end Shadowrunners like the Shadowtalkers can be mislead, misinformed, and just plain unable to see past their own prejudices. (If you don't believe me, ask Clockwork to hug a Technomancer. ... Or any of them to get a Corporate Job. Slamm-0! would be a good suggestion, now that he has a kid to take care of.).

On the other-other-other hand... ... ... Damn, ran out of hands.

[Grinder]

Grinder, I've never lied to you before and I'm not about to start now: I can't speak to Conspiracy Theories or Corporate Intrigue, because I haven't seen any of the drafts (not even sure that any have been turned in, but I'm not the guy they come to, so take that for what it's worth)...but I can say that Artifacts Unbound moves the metaplot forward bigtime.

Ok, cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The advertisement doesn't tell that, though.

[CanRay]

...I've never lied to you before and I'm not about to start now...

Isn't that in the same lines as: "I'm from the Government, I'm here to help"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fatum]

On the other-other-other hand, this *IS* the JackPoint, how accurate the information is can be hotly debated. Misinformation is a key to a lot of things after all, and even high-end Shadowrunners like the Shadowtalkers can be mislead, misinformed, and just plain unable to see past their own prejudices. (If you don't believe me, ask Clockwork to hug a Technomancer. ... Or any of them to get a Corporate Job. Slamm-0! would be a good suggestion, now that he has a kid to take care of.).

Fluff is IC, most often it could be false to a degree. Stats are OOC, they're always correct as supplied.
You can't just say "those stats for assault rifles look suspiciously similar, FastJack must have goofd up damn hackers know nothing of our sammie killy things" etc.

[Hagga]

Way back when this book was called Prime Runners, and i admit to getting alot of use out of it. So personally I'm looking forward to the new book. I especially hope to catch up on some dearly loved NPC's.

..yeah. See, that's my one problem. THe unkillable is going to be a bit underwhelming - and no longer unkillable. Rhonabwy has 25 magic. Frosty, potentially, over about 40 years of activity (with a good tutor) has.. 16, being roughly an eighth grade initiate.

[toturi]

Fluff is IC, most often it could be false to a degree. Stats are OOC, they're always correct as supplied.

I'd say that although stats are OOC and should be correct as supplied, I hope that the writers or developers would not include disclaimer-type statements like "GMs should alter these stats to suit their campaign" because that would IMO detract from putting those stats in the book in the first place - for something like this, it is all or nothing.

For my part, I would truly like to see how powerful a plot device would be when statted up. Ultimate NPCs being statless, I accept as a necessary evil. But given this book are about Street Legends, I'd love to see such Ultimate NPCs statted up, if only to see what are the capabilities a being thousands of years old can achieve.

I am glad that the writers and devs finally throwdown and put stats to paper for the characters that so far remain nebulous quantities. We know that Fastjack and Smiling Bandit are top class hackers, perhaps now we will know how much better Fastjack really is, even if it is simply a single hair's difference in dice pools. Maybe we will know that Lowfyr could pwn Harlequin, but on a good day, Harley could make Lowfyr wish he never crawled out of his shell.

Later today when I get off work, I will haul my bone tired ass to the FLGS and place an pre-order for a dead tree version of this book. The only reason why I haven't done so is because for the last few days when I got off work, the store had closed. This is how much I anticipate this book. I haven't felt so excited since The George announced the Star Wars prequels. Do not fail us, Obi-wan Kenobis.

[suoq]

perhaps now we will know how much better Fastjack really is, even if it is simply a single hair's difference in dice pools.

A hair's difference ahead of what? However you stat him out, he's either not going to make a lot of sense or he's going to be eaten alive by that monstrosity being built in "Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them?". You can build him to defend against characters built with encephalons and PuSHeD, but what are you going to do about the power creep that comes in future sourcebooks? How will he look when some sourcebook makes technomancers even more powerful?

The dice pool thrown by starting characters grows with every sourcebook. If you want your legends to stay legends, you're going to need to take a pen to their stats after a while.

[Stahlseele]

Still haven't figured out the Multiquoting Mr.Goodman? O.o

[hermit]

I'm not out to get all nit-picky and quibble over every line of text that's being written, Hermit, but in the very quote you posted this in reply to, I did say:

So in addition to focusing on these legends and giving more detail about who they are and what they do, in addition to attaching some plot hooks and metaplot elements to keep them useful to many a campaign, in addition to having some sweet artwork lined up in what's going to be a gorgeous book...

So, yes. We're well aware that epic, legendary, high-power characters like this may not be immediately useful to every single GM in every single game out there, and we're doing what we can to help folks integrate them into their own campaigns.

Well, I was more thinking about how to scale their power in relation to the PCs than in plot points, but it's good that this is apparently done. Because that's something that Prime Runners pretty much failed in.

I cannot think of a way that humanity has changed very little in 5000 years.

That's a mere 250 generations. Not a whole lot of time in evolutionary terms, especially considering there never was any seriously dire evolutionary pressure on our species. Besides, homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis were, probably, genetically compatible beyond the production of mules, so the genetical differences between the two hominid species are pretty thin to begin with.

It also makes it really, really difficult to get drunk. Which, when you consider some of the days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries some of these folks have had...

. They just can't die from an overdose. Apparently. Of course, this is one of the places where fluff and crunch collide, head-on, each moving at 150 mph.

So what has he been doing for the past 20 years? All of them? Is he keeping up with all of the magic, all of the technology, all of everything that's changing every single day, from nanites to technomancers to bug spirits?

The technology, obviously, because he already knows everything that's 'changing' about magic (and a hell of a lot more). And it changes monthly, not daily.

As far as killing Dunkelzahn, it appears someone beat your runners to it. All that took was an explosion. And all his years of experience taught him one lesson you're not getting. Dragons need to have a will for when they die.

Seems you are not aware that Dunkelzahn killed himself to become a superspirit and basically save the world, right? He wrote the will and built a couple artifacts because he knew where he was heading. It's not like some mortal had a lucky hit on him or anything.

[hermit]

That said, most of the IEs aren't a big deal because they're IEs.

Agreed. Hessler, for instance, mainly enjoys sipping tea and watching Cricket games. Well, that and playing Merlin to the Pendragon. Most IE actually are about survival first, personal comforts/interests second, and influencing the world a very distant third. The ones who want to play sayajin mostly are the nutcases like Harlekin, Aina or Alachia. The only halfway sane high-profile IE seems to be Surehand.

So CREEEED is indeed (a) Harlekin?

No, he just channels the Emprah 2.0 occasionally.

I had one put into the game for me years ago, and I finally got the chance to kill him. Don't have any plans on putting another one back in with this project.

Dead Great Dragons? Wow.

Still looks to be on the schedule; other than that, no clue.

Okay. Am curious for what this will be. Asking because it's not mentioned in the upcoming products on the CGL page; but then again, so is Unfriendly Skies.

Without going to the book, name three characters that appear in there.

Sutherland, Tri-D, and ... DeVries? No, DeVries was in Threats, wasn't he?

Seriously, if you dont like something don't use it. Maybe someone wants to run a campaign where their runners have to fight Lofwyr and Harlequin in a steel cage, Catalyst is giving them some stats, it isn't like this is a video game and you're locked into it.

No, but it might be like a Sims Expansion Package that has tons of totally useless crap and will probably screw with your game big time but that you have to buy because otherwise your DLC Aztec-style sacrifical tables and cubboards will not work properly. Lots of baggage for something little you nonetheless want.

[hobgoblin]

This whole thread is 8 pages too long. Let it die, people.

[Sengir]

Can we get back to a discussion about the style/ format of the new sourcebooks? Less to no metaplot, but NPCs, locations, and adventure seeds only?

Does that need much discussion? CGL has decided that writing a story is too much work, so they just take a bunch of random bits and pieces and call it a book. Half of the fun of campaign books is that they provide an actual plot which is enjoyable to read even if you don't run the module.

I'm also curious to how they want to present this release in-universe...hopefully not again as a collection of corp intel, because that just made no bloody sense at all.


PS:

Ehran talking about the very human Da Vinci, was long before Leonardo the IE ever showed up in the game's writing.

OK, I though this was only introduced after Leonardo got retconned in Technobabel.

[LurkerOutThere]

Devries was prime runners, but i have to concede I cna't remember many actual names from Prime Runners, some concepts yes but I'm a little short on actual names.

[Patrick Goodman]

Still haven't figured out the Multiquoting Mr.Goodman? O.o

Haven't tried much, and those attempts I've made have shown that it doesn't like me. When I have some more time, I'll deal with it a little more; in the meantime, I'll just keep on keeping on.

[Slithery D]

Rhonabwy stat block in PR had his magic listed at 25. With some physical drain could cast at force 50 *grin*. Earlier edition of rules.

edit: Mentions him casting between force 5 and 20 for most spells. Guess he figures why show off.

In SR2 spells were bought at a certain force and you couldn't cast higher; under those rules his spells were in that force range.

[CanRay]

This whole thread is 8 pages too long. Let it die, people.

What, and let the Shedim get it? NEVER!

[Fatum]

Still haven't figured out the Multiquoting Mr.Goodman? O.o

I haven't, as well. How do you do it?

This whole thread is 8 pages too long. Let it die, people.

Minding that it's 2 pages long, the optimal length for it would be -6 pages, in your opinion?

Also, suddenly I like the iron cage idea...