[X] My Assistant

[HunterHerne]

Hmmm, for Logic-linked skills the second number does indeed align with the +2 Bonus from his Neocortical Nanites. But where does the flat +4 on all sorts of pilot skills come from?

My initial though was that the extra set of numbers was for GMs wanting to raise the stakes.

Control rig, and control rig booster (2)

[hermit]

No, Hermit, you're the one that's purposefully quoting only part of the rule, and either misunderstanding or misrepresenting it. It's an option. A suggestion. It specifically says so elsewhere in that very box, explaining that both of those rules are completely optional and available only to GMs and players who are interested in them.

Yeah, like the Resonance Difference. Doesn't make this a better rule.

If you don't want all that, it's a simple fix: don't use the optional rule. Ta da!

So not useable supplements are now a feature, not a flaw?

Sorry, not meaning to piss on the entire PDF (haven't seen it so far), but this rule is not really adding anything except baggage and a way to make DMPC hyperpowerful (since, yes, PCs buying this might not be the worst problem and will just effectively remove the PC from any sensible game).

Besides, I hope these samples are from an early, un-proofed draft. Lots of errors in there.

[Mäx]

So not useable supplements are now a feature, not a flaw?

You seem to have a really hard time understanding what the word optional rule means.

[hermit]

You seem to have a really hard time understanding what the word optional rule means.

You seem to assume optional rules are supposed to be crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[HunterHerne]

You seem to assume optional rules are supposed to be crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't see a problem with this optional rule. It's at a high enough level that even if it does impact your game, most character will be running out of worthwhile options, and close to retiring.

[Aku]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

Thats all i gotta say

[Faelan]

Personally I think it is an elegant solution to a contentious problem. With the optional rule you can use the stats provided in the book in pretty much any campaign, and get the desired result. You want Legends to be badder than bad, here you go. You want Legends to be overblown, use the raw stats. You want Legends to shine because of circumstances use cinematic rules. Want something in between mix them to the desired flavor.

[hermit]

Personally I think it is an elegant solution to a contentious problem. With the optional rule you can use the stats provided in the book in pretty much any campaign, and get the desired result. You want Legends to be badder than bad, here you go. You want Legends to be overblown, use the raw stats. You want Legends to shine because of circumstances use cinematic rules. Want something in between mix them to the desired flavor.

Rigger X is statted like a 150 Karma PC at best. Why not stat him yourself? Would fit your group's style better without pissing your players off with "better than you by nature" type PCs. I mean, look how many react to Harlequin, who does not even roll more successes than PC with the same pool by default.

I like the idea of fluffing out major players, but this rule is no workable remedy for the problem with statted NPCs.

And, well, stat blocks like this are extremly hard to read. Who at CGL has this mysterious but strong hatred of proper tables?

[Sengir]

Control rig, and control rig booster (2)

Would work by the numbers, but that would be a REALLY weird way of listing modifiers...those things don't add to skills or attributes, but are bonuses like a smartlink (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

In the good news, the artwork looks nice

[hermit]

In the good news, the artwork looks nice

Yeah, that's the one improvement with recent releases.

[Patrick Goodman]

In the good news, the artwork looks nice

It's a mixed bag, IMO, but for the most part, yeah, the art in Street Legends is really, really nice.

Not on the character I wrote up, mind you, but mostly it's really, really nice.

But I need to stay away from here to protect myself from the haters who haven't even seen the whole damn book yet, and yet have declared it utter shit. I don't understand those people, and they raise my blood pressure, so it's probably time to become scarce again. Civility has, apparently, finally died on the internet, at least here on DS.

[Tycho]

Rigger X made a bit more readable:
Athletics skill group 1
Automatics (Submachine Guns) 2 (+2)
Blades 3
Con (Impersonation) 2 (+2)
Dodge 2
Electronics skill group 3 (5)
Electronic Warfare 4 (6)
Etiquette (Corporate) 2 (+2)
Gunnery 4
Hacking (Drones) 4 (6) (+2)
Mechanics skill group 2 (4)
Navigation 3,
Perception 4
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) 4 ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (+2)
Pilot Anthroform (Remote Operation) 3 (7) (+2),
Pilot Ground Craft (Remote Operation) 4 ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (+2)
Pilot Watercraft 2 (6)
Stealth skill group 3

Maybe what the additional number in the brackets means is explained elsewhere in the book, but on a first look HUH?

As I mentioned before: This Ratings are mostly incorrect BS.

He has Rigger nannites 2 and Neural Amps 2, but the neural Amps only provide a Bonus to Logic based skills, so no bonus to all the pilot skills. (and they don't modify the skill, just bonus dice)

His correct pilot skills are:
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) 4 (6) (+2)
Pilot Anthroform (Remote Operation) 3 (4) (+2)
Pilot Ground Craft (Remote Operation) 4 (6) (+2)
Pilot Watercraft 2 (3)

This is what I am taking about, at least the shitty ratings should be correct, but even that is not the case... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

cya
Tycho

[hobgoblin]

It does seem to be going that way, doesn't it?

Been building up since FanPro, I think... Might also be the nature of the Internet, "They changed it, now it sucks" when they adapted things to deal with the way technology moved that wasn't even thought of in the '80s and '90s.

I seem to recall the same reaction to Cyberpunk v3, especially from certain people that had invested heavily in extending their own fanon from where 2020 left off.

It may be reaching a peak of sorts now that some of the people that took the most effort inserting fan service for the old hands of the community have left for other projects.

[fistandantilus4....]

Hermit, your last two pages of post have a heavy coating of rancor. Ease off.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

10 sessions or more of no spending karma at all. From game inception to legendary would be 50ish sessions. So assuming you play every single week, it'd take you almost a year IRL to get enough karma to pull it off. My group *does* play every week, and we only get 5-7 karma per session (even with the higher attribute karma costs). So it'd take us almost double that. It's not worth it.

Wow... Seems like everyone gets 10+ Karma per Session... That must be nice. Now I know why everyone seems to dislike the Fluff, and why everyone wants to have higher rated Skill Caps... I have a character I played for a solid 2.5 years (about 130 Sessions or so) and I have YET to get 500+ Karma (Currently at 320'ish). Hmmmmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

EDIT: The grain of sand that I take from the comments from people that say, "It should be this!" is that, well, have they done any writing for the fan-based projects that abound in DumpShock and languish due to lack of support? I know I've tried a bit myself, and there's also my fan fiction that's been well received. Try to build something before you tear down someone else's work.

Very True... And yet, I always seem to get a warning when I say it... *Shrug*
Anyways... way to go Canray, I can't agree with you more (Besides, I like your stuff. Very well received on my end, at least).... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a mixed bag, IMO, but for the most part, yeah, the art in Street Legends is really, really nice.

Not on the character I wrote up, mind you, but mostly it's really, really nice.

But I need to stay away from here to protect myself from the haters who haven't even seen the whole damn book yet, and yet have declared it utter shit. I don't understand those people, and they raise my blood pressure, so it's probably time to become scarce again. Civility has, apparently, finally died on the internet, at least here on DS.

Out of curiousity, Patrick, whom did you work on, if I may ask?
And we are not all Haters here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

Out of curiousity, Patrick, whom did you work on, if I may ask?
And we are not all Haters here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wrote up Martin de Vries.

And I'm enormously glad to hear it.

[CanRay]

I'm not so much a hater as cranky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[HunterHerne]

I'm not so much a hater as cranky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

We all have those days. It seems, here in Canada, at least to each other, those days come more and more, though...

[toturi]

I wrote up Martin de Vries.

And I'm enormously glad to hear it.

Just so we all know who to shoot if it turns out bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Just so we all know who to shoot if it turns out bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Just be happy someone is saying something about him, and not just an off-hand comment.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wrote up Martin de Vries.

And I'm enormously glad to hear it.

Awesome...

Looking forward to getting this book. It will be in PDF, right? As much as I would like to have a Dead Tree version, finances require a PDF, at least for now.

[Patrick Goodman]

Yeah, the PDF is supposed to be out Real Soon Now. The dead tree format should be out at GenCon.

[Critias]

So not useable supplements are now a feature, not a flaw?

Sorry, not meaning to piss on the entire PDF (haven't seen it so far)

One of these quotes is not like the other... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

...but this rule is not really adding anything except baggage and a way to make DMPC hyperpowerful (since, yes, PCs buying this might not be the worst problem and will just effectively remove the PC from any sensible game).

There are two rules in here, that you seem to be lumping together into one in order to cast them both in the worst possible light.

1) When a street legend is active in your campaign, everyone rolls hits on a 4+. Not just the legendary character, but everyone. Emeril shouts BAM and your whole campaign kicks it up a notch, getting a little more cinematic and over-the-top, inflating the difference between hum-drum security schmucks' die pools and over-the-top action superstars (your PCs, not just the NPC in question, should be stealing the limelight under this rule). This provides a metagame "boost" and a sense of excitement and the-stuff-legends-are-made-of into your campaign, so that players are psyched to be running alongside (or against!) one of the Sixth World's big names.

2) As a separate rule, players can eventually achieve a sort of legendary status themselves, if you're in a high powered campaign and they've got the karma to spend. If someone has the points and your campaign opts to use this rule, any PC that wants to can get their very own epic level knack, and show they've hit the big leagues by being the coolest of the cool and scoring hits on a 4+.

The NPC version grants the ability to entire scenes at a time, and is a purely metagame conceit to ramp up the level of cinematic fun if the inclusion of a legendary character calls for it. The PC version is a way for a given player character to just be that awesome all the time. Both are optional, but not exactly equal. If a legendary NPC is around, your PCs reap the benefit of the special rule (since PCs are the focus point of any campaign, and as such Shadowrun as a whole). If it's a PC that's shelled out the karma for the rule, that PC reaps the benefits of the special rule (since PCs are the focus point of any campaign, and as such Shadowrun as a whole). Either way, it's not something that's unique to "overpowered" and "broken" "Mary Sue" NPCs.

And, again? Both are clearly stated as being suggestions for high-octane over-the-top campaigns, and if you don't want to use them, don't use them. Their inclusion shouldn't be making the whole supplement "not useable," and if it is I think that's a problem with you, and not the supplement.

It's a fucking game. What's more, despite late SR3 and early SR4 conceits to the contrary, Shadowrun as a whole shouldn't be taken seriously enough that it should even be called a "sensible game," any more than any RPG should. Personally? It's a ridiculous, silly, amazing game about elves and wizards and computers and orks and submachineguns and stompy robots and mirror shades all at once; rolling handfuls of dice and being awesome is the only thing to really worry about, in the greater scheme of things. If rolling even bigger handfuls of dice and being even more awesome, alongside characters known from novels and sourcebooks, is your thing? Rock out, buy the book, get a better handle on some metaplot and some infamous characters, and have fun.

If that's not your thing, and you prefer a "sensible game," then fine, but that doesn't make it a bad book. The fact you won't be using it doesn't mean it's not useable (and for the record I mean the generic "you," here, not necessarily Hermit as an individual). Different folks have always glommed onto different aspects of Shadowrun, loving or hating various NPCs (or ignoring them completely), loving, hating or ignoring various slices of the metaplot, loving, hating, or ignoring various parts of the setting...that's just the nature of the beast, particularly when it's a beast with 20+ years of baggage.