[X] My Assistant

[Hida Tsuzua]

Honestly when you have legendary NPCs for a published product, you have 2 options. Give them stats or not. If you give them stats, then they'll be underpowered or you jack it up to over 9000 and nothing can stop them (I've heard this has happened in Exalted). If you don't, then everything is all magical tea party and they often become supermen to slap the PCs around (see most of White Wolf). There's no good way to balance them over so many parties and play styles.

Overall, the book would seem like something I'll check out if I got it free. It'll be interesting to see if I can make a starting character that can outhack Fastjack.

[hobgoblin]

As for the lack of metaplot, i think it was dialed back because people felt their characters where just along for the ride.

This was also why they tried to bring the game back down to street level when SR4 was fresh, tho later books like War have likely shifted that back up.

[MJBurrage]

I will never understand why people think this is a negative thing.

In a world where a small group of immortals have been playing power games with each other for millennia, is is absurd to think that any mortal could really play them properly. So while I have no problem with giving them physical stats, their collection of knowledge, tactics, and magical power is by definition in a class wholly above the players.

Any game where players can kill a great dragon or an old immortal elf, is NOT Shadowrun. If the players can outplan an immortal who has survived for thousands of years, than the GM is not playing the immortal well enough. Shadowrun is a game where the players scratch out life in the shadows of these powers (and of course the Megacorps, which are the new third set of power players in the sixth world).

P.S. if it is part of the publisher's meta-plot, or a game master's campaign arc that one of these power players is taking out another using the players as pawns, that would be different, and stats are still not really needed, since it is the machinations of one of those players, and the deus ex machina provided, that really do the job in the end.

P.P.S. I am not saying that no human alive could take on dragons or immortal elves, only that the route is not as a Shadowrunner, but rather as a a business-person with the savy and tenacity to rise to real power in Megacorp. And playing that character over the time it would take is also not the game called Shadowrun.

[hermit]

Take the latter books of Dark Heresy for instance, when the power of the character shifts from being about gears and skill to being about the authority that comes with ones position...

Yeah, and requisitioning relics. Besides, is it just me or are ascended Sisters the better Marines? With Heresy Begets Retribution's Mantle of +3 to everywhere, B.C. Power Armour, and a paint-on body glove, they get the same armour as a Terminator and no movement penalties, with faith powers they can buff themselve ssenseless against the harsher foes, and with the ressurrection talents, they're multiplying their wounds by their Fate, essentially ...

... oh, and thanks to Rogue Trader, you can then go and requisition a Grand Cruiser. Yeah, Influence is everything in Ascended Dark Heresy.

IMO this book idea can be summed up in three words: Desperate attention whoring. Now all we need is a "Shadowrun prequels" series which reveals stuff like the Nightwraith Incident - because prequels have worked well in just about every SciFi universe, right?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) Will you stop giving them ideas?!(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

If you don't, then everything is all magical tea party and they often become supermen to slap the PCs around (see most of White Wolf). There's no good way to balance them over so many parties and play styles.

You could give stats in three versions for low, med and high powered groups, I guess, but then again why then stat them at all. A Crunch guideline "statting my Big Playa NPC" and a ranking system from "equal" to "elder being" to give guidelines on power might be a better idea.

[Fatum]

Well, we've got stats for Great Dragons, and several have been published before (Mostly the younger ones, mind you, but still)

Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?

Yeah, and requisitioning relics. Besides, is it just me or are ascended Sisters the better Marines? With Heresy Begets Retribution's Mantle of +3 to everywhere, B.C. Power Armour, and a paint-on body glove, they get the same armour as a Terminator and no movement penalties, with faith powers they can buff themselve ssenseless against the harsher foes, and with the ressurrection talents, they're multiplying their wounds by their Fate, essentially ...

Well, Marines have unnat stats and all those rad moves.

[Vuron]

Well you can interact with the big 4th world movers and shakers in a variety of ways without being insta-gibbed or making them chumps.

1)The old-timers squad aren't omnipotent or omnipresent. Even GDs understand that true power is not your physical might or magical prowess but what sort of influence you have on the world around you. As such they use their vast resources and contacts to influence the world. For the most part they individually have massive even mind-boggling resources but they are dwarfed by the Megacorps (Lofwyr being the primary exception). They are just enormously focused and can afford to play the long game.

2)Just like individual runners can afford to target and foil Megacorps without getting slaughtered, Runners can engage with GDs and IEs as both allies and adversaries. If you have a serious hate-on for Lofwyr you can try to foil his plots, granted other people like Mina Graf-Beloit and Johnny Spinrad have tried the same and failed but you can at least slow him down.

3) GDs and IEs seem to be enjoying a certain level of detente between themselves. As such interactions between them rarely get to the fisticuffs phase. Low level proxy wars using deniable assets seem to be order of business. I think it's definitely doable to work with one faction against another faction and as long as you behave yourself for the most part the IEs and GDs don't summarily execute each other's pawns lest the detente crumble.

4) It doesn't serve their interests to go Ghostwalker on the non-awakened very often. You want people to respect your might but not rise up in opposition to oppose you because a) mundanes have some pretty cool tricks and weapons that can even slay immortals and b) you need to mundanes to do all the stuff you don't have the time or inclination to do, like build kaer/arcologies.

The problem with stating them is that if it has a statblock it's killable unless you give them all sorts of a super secret spells and powers that are DM only don't use. And then you have every powergamer wondering why he can't learn special dragon/ie magic. It's just a bad scene.

So if you absolutely must stat a IE or GD make them a 6th World variation (like Masaru or Frosty or Lady Brane Deigh) don't stat the 4th world heavyweights because that way lies madness.

[Vuron]

Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?

Arleesh got a statblock in a 1e adventure and Rhonabwy got a statblock in Prime Runners. I vaguely remember some sort of White Wolf Inphobia with stats for another GD back in the day but it was probably noncanonical and I can't find my copy of it.

Harlequin has some rough guidelines about him but IIRC there are no canonical IE statblocks. You could probably take Zessler's Prime Runner statblock as a good starting point though.

[Prime Mover]

Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?

Stats for younger greats introduced in SR4 page 297 and can find them in SR4A on page 304.

[Wakshaani]

Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?

Looks like they covered the basics above, buuut...

Arleesh is statted out in Bottled Demon.
Rhonaby is in Prime Runners
Masaru is statted up in CyberPirates

"Generic" Great Dragon is in SR 4's critter section, page 300-ish.

Been at least a half-dozen normal dragons printed up as well.

Lofwyr's a wee bit stronger than those mentioned up above, obviously, but his main strength comes from his head and resources, not his (admitedly impressive!) magical side. I want to say that the Lung is the strongest magician of the Great Dragons, but Rumiyo's probably #2. Dunk was up there as well, but had a different directon, so I don't think he'd mastered to Lung's level. (Personal opnion, mind.)

[Critias]

Depends on what you mean by magician -- in terms of summoning (though maybe not spellcasting), Ghostwalker's always been the big dog on the porch.

[Wakshaani]

Depends on what you mean by magician -- in terms of summoning (though maybe not spellcasting), Ghostwalker's always been the big dog on the porch.

Quite true! With the average Great Dragon having Sorcery at 10, I'd personally put Lung on top with a 12, and give Ghostwalker the standard Sorcery 10 but give him Conjuring 12 to Lung's 10.

Similarly, an average Great Dragon has Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower at 13. Ol' Golden Snout would benchmark around a 15 Logic, IMHO, possibly as high as an 18, since he runs all of S-K in his head. Hestaby's probably more charasmatic, Aden likely has more Agility due to his fightyness, and so on.

[KCKitsune]

I would have liked it better if the GD & IE were never defined. Just a generic "The Powers in the Shadows" beings. These being lived as long as they have because they don't sit still long enough for anybody to get a really good look at them.

[Critias]

I would have liked it better if the GD & IE were never defined. Just a generic "The Powers in the Shadows" beings. These being lived as long as they have because they don't sit still long enough for anybody to get a really good look at them.

Yeah, but when that route gets taken, people complain about Mary Sues and GM fiat and metaplot domination and stuff like that (heck, some people still gripe about Harley not being fully statted up in adventures that are 17+ years old, and I remember complaints that Lofwyr wasn't statted in the old Prime Runners book!). Supplying some stats for old favorites (and a few new names), but most importantly supplying some in-depth information on them all, some cool Shadowtalk, and some plot/adventure ideas that include these guys? Some folks are really gonna dig that sort of thing.

There's not gonna be a rule in Street Legends (or anywhere else) that says any given GM has to use the material being provided. If you aren't a fan of the big-name NPCs, maybe the book's just not up your alley, and that's cool. But if you want the fluff and not the crunch, CGL hasn't got commando teams on standby to kick in your door if you stat up Lofwyr differently for your game, or alter the Body of Talon, or whatever else you want to do. It's your game, rock out however you want to.

[Wakshaani]

I do worry a bit, however, about rules being broken, or needing to invalidate rules, for some stuff.

For example, let's take Fastjack. You have to assume he was some sort of Prodigy talent allowing a computer skill (Hacking? Combat?) to be a 7, rather than a 6. If he has a Hacking skill of, say, 9, then on the one hand, he probably deserves it but on the OTHER hand, there'd better be some notation of how someone can break the rules like that. Maybe a notation of "Legendary Talent", where the usual cap on stats and skills can be pushed through ... if you try hard enough. Pay 10 times the usual Karma cost and you can break the rules, allowing you to have no *real* limit in your ability.

WHich pushes us back down to some of the older Shadowrun days, which is a bad thing in many eyes and a good thing in many others.

But if you just toss Fastjack out with a Cybercombat of 13, it isn't fair to the playerbase who can never get past a 7.

So ... there's going to be some tough calls to make, here. (Errr, there were some tough calls to make, I should say. All the work is long done.)

[Stahlseele]

Stats for younger greats introduced in SR4 page 297 and can find them in SR4A on page 304.

DTSW had Stats for 3 or 4 kinds of Dragons.
Child, Adolescent, Adult and Great, where Great was simply:"Take Adult and add 10 or 15 to every stat" i think.

[Prime Mover]

Rhonabwy stat block in PR had his magic listed at 25. With some physical drain could cast at force 50 *grin*. Earlier edition of rules.

edit: Mentions him casting between force 5 and 20 for most spells. Guess he figures why show off.

[Sengir]

Rhonaby is in Prime Runners

And even in that much-loathed product, the descriptions say something to the end of "not that all of this matters, he always wins". In other words, when in doubt ignore the stats and switch back to GM handwaving.

PS: Shouldn't "complete game stats" also include a complete list of contacts? Now that's going to be quite a list (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bull]

*shrug*

One thing to keep in mind... This isn't just a "Big Book of Stat Blocks". It also includes history, stories, and backgrounds on these characters. For some characters, it'll be completely new material since we don't know much about them. For others, it'll be compiling information from over two decades of canon into one location for newer players that don't have the older books.

And hey, GMs can always tweak or ignore statblocks as needed. Hell, even back in the old Basic/1st/2nd D&D days... If I wanted 3 or 4 or 10 HD Orc, I made one, even though Orcs were clearly 1 Hit Die creatures by the Monster Manual. Lord knows I don;t always stick to the stats given in the SR books now. I modify everything to fit the challenge level I want to present to the players... If it's supposed to be easier, I tone it down. If it's harder, I tone it up. <shrug>

Stats are a tough spot, because a lot of time you look at them, and they're just ridiculous. They're either way too low, or their obviously cheese-munched 6 ways from Sunday. SR4's stat/skill restrictions (and the fact it's so damn easy to cap out at character creation) makes it even tougher.

But, if the book was released sans-stats, just as many folks complaining about their being stats would be complaining that their weren't any. So easier to give stats and say "Ignore these as needed".

And hey, if your players complain, smack them upside the head with the book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Bull

[Fatum]

But if you want the fluff and not the crunch, CGL hasn't got commando teams on standby to kick in your door if you stat up Lofwyr differently for your game, or alter the Body of Talon, or whatever else you want to do. It's your game, rock out however you want to.

Stalin used to say so too!

[Headshot_Joe]

Everybody GMs this game differently, every group runs at a different level of power and ability, and most importantly, everyone has their own perceptions of these mythical characters. I don't mind if CGL stats them out. If I don't feel they're at the right power level for whichever game I am running that may feature them, I will restat them for that adventure. If they aren't meant to be fathomable, I simply won't stat them, and maintain their mystery status.

There will be times the group will want to play a grittier game with impossible enemies, there will be times they wish to unlimber the pinkest mohawk rifles of ultimate power and go on a great dragon killing spree. Who am I to deny them their desired campaign?

I am more excited for the updated information on all these awesome folks than I am to nerd rage about the stats.




Also, I am completely ashamed of all you Dampsharkers for letting any thread that mentions Nadja Daviar to go this long without the mention of lusty brown elven nipples!

[Prime Mover]

Also, I am completely ashamed of all you Dampsharkers for letting any thread that mentions Nadja Daviar to go this long without the mention of lusty brown elven nipples!

Damn how'd that happen....must have been the tease of dice pools in the triple digits that distracted us. *joke*

[SirBedevere]

We've always lilked the concept that IE and GDs have enough Karma to pick up any skills they need at whatever level they need and Magic that's out of sight of any mortal. Having said that we came up with a couple of ways to kill them (the team were working for Alimais, opposing a dragon killing sect - long story); the sect intended to use a sniper with a laser rifle aiming at the eye.

A large number of IEs could be got rid of by hitting Portland with a Thor shot. Getting one's the difficult bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Alamais got hit by orbital Laser Cannons and is still alive to grumble about it . .

[redwulf25]

http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/upcoming-products/



I'm not really excited. Who needs game stats for Lofwyr or Harlequin?

Someone who wants to cap off their campaign with a run to assassinate Lofwyr?

[Critias]

I do worry a bit, however, about rules being broken, or needing to invalidate rules, for some stuff.

There was a long discussion about that sort of thing amongst us writers, trust me. I think what we settled on was a pretty cool way to handle it.