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Morg
post May 25 2011, 02:32 AM
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From a post I made else were I offer this

Here are a few issues that concern me about Gyrojets.

Even thought RL Gyrojets have been written off as a bad idea they can't be silenced and the are ineffective at close range. I have always found that shooting a mini rocket/missile at someone has a tremendous coolness factor so why not let them shine a little more.

Why is the only Gyrojet weapon a pistol there could be rifles as well and you could even implement the metal storm concept in them to give them a little more of a fire rate, or as a sniper rifle using transonic rounds

Because Gyrojet rocket damage is primarily from its explosive charge I feel it should be resisted with impact
When used underwater all Gyrojets get +1 DV
New Gyrojet Weapons Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Availability Cost
FN-AALM Gyrojet SMG 6P -1 SA/BF/FA 2 20 clip 13F 1150•
FN-AALR Gyrojet Assault Rifle 7P -1 SA/BF/FA 2 30 clip 14F 1300•
FN-AALG Gyrojet Sniper Rifle 9P -3 SA (1) 10 clip 16F 3500•

Drone weapon Damage AP Mod RC Ammo Availability cost
MCT Kouu Suisei 8P -3 FA* - 20(ml)x36 20F 9500•

The Kouu Suisei "Raining Comet" is a Gyrojet Gunpod is capable of amphibious deployment with incredible fire rates it uses Heavy Machine gun ranges because of its lack of moveing parts and muzzle loading design It can attain Hyper velocity Fire rates (See Hyper Velocity weapons pg 26 Arsenal)

I have come to a sudden realization that the Seeker rounds for Gyrojets have been Phased out from SR3 to SR4A could they be resurrected? As Mini Rockets you could add more ammo types to it they already have Tracker, Taser, and Explosive(Plus rockets) rounds why not the equivalent to APDS, AV, Flare or apply some of the similar effects as explosives eg Chemical rockets, White Phosphorus rockets ect

New Gyrojet Rockets Damage AP Availability Cost
Gyrojet Ex Plus +1 -1 18F 250•
Gyrojet Omega(AV) - -4/-6 20F 270•
Gyrojet Flare -2 +2 8 50•
Gyrojet Seeker As Rocket As Rocket +2R +500•
Gyrojet White Phosphorus* -/4P -half 14F 260•
*=White Phosphorus Gyrojet will not receive the +1 DV under water nor will it burn

What kind of weapon modifications can be made to a Gyrojet weapon?

are there any other Gyrojet lovers out there?

Thoughts?
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Dakka Dakka
post May 25 2011, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE (Morg @ May 25 2011, 04:32 AM) *
Because Gyrojet rocket damage is primarily from its explosive charge I feel it should be resisted with impact
I don't agree. Ex and Ex≤ ammo isn't resisted by impact armor either. The amount of explosives contained within the projectile should be about the same, maybe even less in the gyrojet.

QUOTE (Morg @ May 25 2011, 04:32 AM) *
New Gyrojet Weapons Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Availability Cost
FN-AALM Gyrojet SMG 6P -1 SA/BF 2 20 clip 13F 1150•
FN-AALR Gyrojet Assault Rifle 7P -2 SA/BF/FA 2 30 clip 14F 1300•
FN-AALG Gyrojet Rifle 9P -2 SA (1) 10 clip 16F 3500•
If you compare the Gyrojet Pistol to a normal heavy pistol, you will see that only the damage is increased by 1 and the AP is left unchanged. I would use the same modification for the other weapon categories. Why doesn't the SMG have FA?
QUOTE (Morg @ May 25 2011, 04:32 AM) *
What kind of weapon modifications can be made to a Gyrojet weapon?
Most of the standard ones should work. A Gas Vent however may not be applicable. A silencer/suppressor should not work.
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Morg
post May 25 2011, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 25 2011, 03:31 AM) *
I don't agree. Ex and Ex≤ ammo isn't resisted by impact armor either. The amount of explosives contained within the projectile should be about the same, maybe even less in the gyrojet.


If this were true then Ex and Ex≤ would get +1 DV underwater this bonus originates from tamping by the water. The description of a Gyrojet is a self propelled miniature rocket so its damage doesn't originate from the fact that it reaches ballistic speeds but instead the fact that it carries an explosive payload.

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 25 2011, 03:31 AM) *
If you compare the Gyrojet Pistol to a normal heavy pistol, you will see that only the damage is increased by 1 and the AP is left unchanged. I would use the same modification for the other weapon categories. Why doesn't the SMG have FA?
Most of the standard ones should work. A Gas Vent however may not be applicable. A silencer/suppressor should not work.

Your point here is good I will make the changes
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Dakka Dakka
post May 25 2011, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Morg @ May 25 2011, 05:29 PM) *
If this were true then Ex and Ex≤ would get +1 DV underwater this bonus originates from tamping by the water. The description it is a self propelled miniature rocket so its damage doesn't originate from the fact that it reaches ballistic speeds but instead the fact that it carries an explosive payload.
Either the gyrojet rockets are significantly slower than bullets, which means they should be subject to similar scatter as bigger rockets, or they have significant kinetic energy as well, which means they should be resisted by Ballistic Armor.

A meaningful tamping effect by water can only occur if the explosive is detonated on the target's surface. Since we don't know when the payload is triggered, one can assume either.

The other problem is that a normal kinetic projectile would not get to a target under water to do damage. Ever seen MythBusters?

Concerning game balance I think a blanket +1 DV resisted by ballistc armor is enough IMHO unless you just want power creep.
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Morg
post May 25 2011, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 25 2011, 10:54 AM) *
Either the gyrojet rockets are significantly slower than bullets, which means they should be subject to similar scatter as bigger rockets, or they have significant kinetic energy as well, which means they should be resisted by Ballistic Armor.

A meaningful tamping effect by water can only occur if the explosive is detonated on the target's surface. Since we don't know when the payload is triggered, one can assume either.

The other problem is that a normal kinetic projectile would not get to a target under water to do damage. Ever seen MythBusters?

Concerning game balance I think a blanket +1 DV resisted by ballistc armor is enough IMHO unless you just want power creep.


Concerning when the payload is triggered it is stated in the FN-AAL Gyrojet Pistol description the rockets explode upon impact. pg 40 Arsenal.

Witch means that the DV is explosive and not ballistic, otherwise it would reduce the damage dealt to the target underwater

Gyrojets and their Rockets are balanced with a much higher cost and availability then normal ammunition and it requires an exotic weapon skill to use one, this also implies that it is not a simple point and shoot gun perhaps it does lag and the exotic weapon skill helps you componsate

Thoughts?
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Mr. Smileys
post May 25 2011, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (Morg @ May 24 2011, 07:32 PM) *
Why is the only Gyrojet weapon a pistol there could be rifles as well and you could even implement the metal storm concept in them to give them a little more of a fire rate, or as a sniper rifle using transonic rounds



The Metal Storm idea would be very difficult to pull off in a Gyrojet launcher. Because you are dealing with explosive rounds (not Kinetic) in a Metal Storm launcher you would have high chance of the first round detonating the one behind it with the explosive/fuel used to launch the first one. This could be overcome by giving the weapon a minimum firing range (2-5 meters should be plenty). The minimum range would cover things like discarding protective barriers and distance traveled before the projectile becomes armed.
And because Gyrojets are longer then bullets each tube would either hold less ammo or have to be much longer (probably x2-x2.5 the size of a normal Metal storm pod) this would limit what size drones this could be placed on.
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Morg
post May 25 2011, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (Mr. Smileys @ May 25 2011, 12:48 PM) *
The Metal Storm idea would be very difficult to pull off in a Gyrojet launcher. Because you are dealing with explosive rounds (not Kinetic) in a Metal Storm launcher you would have high chance of the first round detonating the one behind it with the explosive/fuel used to launch the first one. This could be overcome by giving the weapon a minimum firing range (2-5 meters should be plenty). The minimum range would cover things like discarding protective barriers and distance traveled before the projectile becomes armed.
And because Gyrojets are longer then bullets each tube would either hold less ammo or have to be much longer (probably x2-x2.5 the size of a normal Metal storm pod) this would limit what size drones this could be placed on.


The chance of setting off the next round in the line is lower then you think remember you can set C4 on fire and it will not explode, it is as simple to fix as using the right kind of hull for the rocket and the right kind of explosive

As to the size for the Gyrojet rockets as technology improves in explosives, rocketry, and strong light weight materials the size and weight goes down the RL equivalent at Deathwind are already at the same size as regular ammunition

Thanks for the input and remember to post your own Gyrojet ammunition and weapon ideas
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Dakka Dakka
post May 25 2011, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Morg @ May 25 2011, 09:09 PM) *
The chance of setting off the next round in the line is lower then you think remember you can set C4 on fire and it will not explode, it is as simple to fix as using the right kind of hull for the rocket and the right kind of explosive
IIRC C4 still burns if set on fire. That wouldn't be good either.
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Morg
post May 25 2011, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 25 2011, 02:18 PM) *
IIRC C4 still burns if set on fire. That wouldn't be good either.

You are correct C4 still burns when set on fire, however I did say the right kind of Explosive and Hull meaning the shell for the rocket and composition of the explosive would negate this problem

Another idea for Gyrojet ammo
New Gyrojet Rockets Damage AP Availability Cost
Gyrojet Hunter As Rocket As Rocket +4F +600•

The Hunter is a Surface-to-Air-Mini-Missile engineered for maximum use the standard ranges for the Gyrojet weapon in question but with an Extended Range of 5000 m when firing at an aerial target apply an additional +1 dice pool modifier, while other targets are a -4 dice pool modifier upon the attack

I ripped most of it from Arsenal pg 38 SAM
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Dakka Dakka
post May 25 2011, 09:50 PM
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Not my cup of tea a true SAM should be a lot bigger than a rifle cartrige (even 12.7mm NATO).
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Morg
post May 25 2011, 09:52 PM
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but it is not bad for micro and mini drones
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Badmoodguy88
post May 26 2011, 04:49 AM
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Gyro jet uses solid rocket fuel. There is no reason why the gyro jet could not carry an explosive charge and no reason it could alternately have no explosive charge. Solid rocket fuel is explosive but not that explosive, well not as explosive as whatever gets shoved into explosive, or EX explosive rounds. The point is exploding is not anything new and it is not what makes the gyro jet special. Sure the various details of it's continued acceleration and accuracy is interesting but the next to no recoil of the gun is what is most interesting.

As I understand it recoil and or escaping gas is what is taped to chamber the next round on an automatic weapon. And while it is un-silence-able it leaves the barrel subsonic (silenced) and makes a sonic boom once up to full speed and far from the shooter. A 2070 version might gain speed more quickly to the point of making a bang very near the shooter (no in game effect). With all the technical wizardry of 2070 one could imagine a gyro jet that accelerated up to subsonic speeds and then maintains that speed.

However a rifle and assault rifle version was made. The assault riffle had full auto. A SMG version was purposed but never made, likely because of loosing interest in the concept.

In game terms a full auto gyro jet would have extremely reduced recoil if it is like the original design. Far from being incapable of taking a gas vent the entire length of the pistol is one big gas vent (then again increasing its gas vent might be more dubious). The barrel is not used to impart spin or give additional acceleration it just points it in the right direction. On the assault riffle and riffle versions the holes in the barrel seem to be just at the start. The added barrel length would not likely add to the speed but it would add to the speed at the point of exiting the barrel. When the rocket first starts out it is at a lower speed and is more susceptible to drift from things like wind.

In game terms upping the auto fire would not increase the recoil by as much if anything but assault riffle and riffle would not up the damage code You could argue a bigger rocket would do more damage and it would, but there is no reason for the pistol not to use the same calibers.

I might suggest the recoil modifier increasing once 2 or ever 3 bullets.
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Morg
post May 26 2011, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ May 26 2011, 12:49 AM) *
Gyro jet uses solid rocket fuel. There is no reason why the gyro jet could not carry an explosive charge and no reason it could alternately have no explosive charge. Solid rocket fuel is explosive but not that explosive, well not as explosive as whatever gets shoved into explosive, or EX explosive rounds. The point is exploding is not anything new and it is not what makes the gyro jet special. Sure the various details of it's continued acceleration and accuracy is interesting but the next to no recoil of the gun is what is most interesting.

As I understand it recoil and or escaping gas is what is taped to chamber the next round on an automatic weapon. And while it is un-silence-able it leaves the barrel subsonic (silenced) and makes a sonic boom once up to full speed and far from the shooter. A 2070 version might gain speed more quickly to the point of making a bang very near the shooter (no in game effect). With all the technical wizardry of 2070 one could imagine a gyro jet that accelerated up to subsonic speeds and then maintains that speed.

However a rifle and assault rifle version was made. The assault riffle had full auto. A SMG version was purposed but never made, likely because of loosing interest in the concept.

In game terms a full auto gyro jet would have extremely reduced recoil if it is like the original design. Far from being incapable of taking a gas vent the entire length of the pistol is one big gas vent (then again increasing its gas vent might be more dubious). The barrel is not used to impart spin or give additional acceleration it just points it in the right direction. On the assault riffle and riffle versions the holes in the barrel seem to be just at the start. The added barrel length would not likely add to the speed but it would add to the speed at the point of exiting the barrel. When the rocket first starts out it is at a lower speed and is more susceptible to drift from things like wind.

In game terms upping the auto fire would not increase the recoil by as much if anything but assault riffle and riffle would not up the damage code You could argue a bigger rocket would do more damage and it would, but there is no reason for the pistol not to use the same calibers.

I might suggest the recoil modifier increasing once 2 or ever 3 bullets.


You are correct in many ways and I would love it if the Gyrojet was represented closer to RL but the statistic block doesn't represent this in the FN-AAL Gyrojet Pistol and I wished to keep it as close as possible to the statistic block

Some examples of how SR Gyrojet differs from RL
The FN-AAL Gyrojet Pistol would acutely be a Lancejet base on how the fluff indicates it's used

The RL Gyrojet rocket doesn't have any kind of explosive component aside from the rocket fuel were as the one written up in the book incorporates an explosive charge that detonates on Impact

The RL Gyrojet deals its damage with ballistic power it leaves the muzzle with practically no damage dealing ability up to 10m then when it burns through its fuel it has +50% the ballistic power of an equivalently sized round. In SR this is not represented in anyway, instead it functions like a hand held mini-missile launcher similar to what is featured in the 1984 film Runaway and that is more then likely what the original game designers were thinking about when they put it in the game. As you see this devices damage orginates from an explosive charge

So in my opinion "by the way it is written up the Gyrojet pistol is not a true representation but should be thought of as a mini-missile launcher"

Opinions?
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Dakka Dakka
post May 26 2011, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (Morg @ May 26 2011, 06:38 PM) *
So in my opinion "by the way it is written up the Gyrojet pistol is not a true representation but should be thought of as a mini-missile launcher"

Opinions?
I think they combined underwater capability with the Bolt Pistol of Warhammer 40K fame.
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Morg
post May 26 2011, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 26 2011, 01:39 PM) *
I think they combined underwater capability with the Bolt Pistol of Warhammer 40K fame.


Dem humeyz dont ave e'nuf Flash uz gonna need mor Dakka also da color ain't orky enough http://lh6.ggpht.com/_LB-DPof2dm4/SyZSVDTL...s720/Bolter.jpg
Reason for edit: fixed link
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Yerameyahu
post May 26 2011, 07:33 PM
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A lot of these suggestions are already in Arsenal.
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Morg
post May 26 2011, 07:50 PM
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True but the big question is "Are Gyrojets one of the firearms types considered too exotic to have certain modifications"
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Udoshi
post May 27 2011, 02:44 AM
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As far as I understand gyrojets, they have some flaws in real life that prevent them from being widely accepted and used.
One of the main ones, is that their initial velocity is low - and can, in fact, be stopped from leaving the barrel by putting your finger over it.

With that in mind, I think its right up Ares alley to make combination gyrojet/gauss rifle. The gauss component to kick the round out of the barrel at an acceptable, bulletlike speed. then the motor can take over and make it accelerate more, for damage on the impact. Not sure what kind of skill it would use, though. Probably something similiar to a lighter gauss rifle - it doesn't need to be super heavy, because the punch is in the ammo.


Rules-wise, i'd like to see a basic gyrojet be given a very small/limited blast radius. Nothing like a grenade, but something that could potentailly injure nearby people with the rocket. Particularly the ex-ex ones.
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Yerameyahu
post May 27 2011, 02:49 AM
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You've just described a (mini)seeker from Eclipse Phase.
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Dakka Dakka
post May 27 2011, 06:28 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 27 2011, 04:44 AM) *
With that in mind, I think its right up Ares alley to make combination gyrojet/gauss rifle. The gauss component to kick the round out of the barrel at an acceptable, bulletlike speed. then the motor can take over and make it accelerate more, for damage on the impact. Not sure what kind of skill it would use, though. Probably something similiar to a lighter gauss rifle - it doesn't need to be super heavy, because the punch is in the ammo.


Rules-wise, i'd like to see a basic gyrojet be given a very small/limited blast radius. Nothing like a grenade, but something that could potentailly injure nearby people with the rocket. Particularly the ex-ex ones.
You can't make them that good. Otherwise everyone but the poorest would have them, if you want to make a plausible game world. Everyone having Gyrojet weapons to me is just as dull as the weapons not existing.
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Udoshi
post May 27 2011, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 26 2011, 08:49 PM) *
You've just described a (mini)seeker from Eclipse Phase.


I really need to read more of that setting.

As far as I know, its CIA (okay, okay, firewall) in Space with ridiculous tech.
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