[X] My Assistant

[Fatum]

Well, find out what Deus' Icon in the Matrix is, and then compare to the existing Paragons. Be surprised ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Uh, is the Great Connection Deus? The World Tree? Money Trie AIs? By your assumption alone, all fit equally well - and all the Viking cults throughout the history are Deus worshipers, too.

[hermit]

I beg your pardon, where can I find info on that "Deus paragon"?

The World Tree. That is Deus's Icon. The Great Connection and 01 sound like fragments too. Possibly, all Paragons are.

I was going for the tree though, for being the most obvious.

[Fatum]

That seems rather baseless. A world tree is a symbol in human culture since time immemorial - I see no reason for this particular one to necessarily be Deus. And nothing in its description hints it is, too.

[Sengir]

Well, find out what Deus' Icon in the Matrix is, and then compare to the existing Paragons. Be surprised ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh noes, a tree in something CompSci-related - that can of course only mean one thing!!!

World Tree is the paragon matching the "Great Connectivity" realm, and its followers believe in "universal distribution of information and knowledge", i.e. the classic crypto-anarchist angle. Doesn't really sound like an aspiring matrix god...

PS: I'd also suggest to be very careful around this site...maybe the HTML document tree is trying to take over the world...

[hermit]

Sure, it could also be bad writing and ignoring/not knowing that Deus used the exact same metaphor, except back then the people who had written Brainscan were still in the writers' pool. Why should they forget their own writing? Because it does not suit you if that's intentional?

And can you make a post without baiting or trolling, or are you that far gone already? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Wireless Matrix existed since 2059 (Matrix sourcebook). AR wasn'T there yet. Copious cellphones have been with the setting ever since the first rulebook.

And what guarantee we have that Deus wouldn't be monitoring them?

Uhm, it's a building 1 km high and around 1 km at each side of the base. It's like the Burj Chalifa covering half of outhern Manhattan. That's not small. You could put several WTC towers into that building.

I guess it is a problem of translation. The only word I can find for a small region of a town is neighborhood (correlating to the portuguese 'bairro'). A small 'bairro' would actually be 1 km₂

Totally pisses me off too, but .... there were TV shows about the matter, there was a reality show in the Arcology (must've been like Aperture Science TV), there were numerous references to it pre-SR4, and even with Emergence's clusterfuck of a retcon there's the monument to the victims. I truly hate to say it, but the /dev/brat bit makes more sense than the it's all seekrit part.

Source about these. Not that I'm doubting you, just want see how exactly it is portrayed.

[Sengir]

Sure, it could also be bad writing and ignoring/not knowing that Deus used the exact same metaphor

So if a a fundamental concept of both computer science and many mythologies has been used once it must no longer be used in any other context or it's bad writing? I await your rant about the great number of characters who use a classic UMS icon by tomorrow.

And can you make a post without baiting or trolling, or are you that far gone already? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Getroffene Hunde...

[Grinder]

Sengir, hermit: Stop it. Right now.

[Whipstitch]

Thought I'd just give a shout out to Gov. Brackhaven and his uncle real quick. Even putting aside the Humanis thing (which is a biggy), they're corp lap dogs and being in bed with Ares & Knight Errant is hella sketchy. Maybe they're not up there in the absurdly evil category when compared to some of the crazier metaplot NPCs, but what they lack in power and chutzpah they make up for by being complete and utter tools.

[Adarael]

Yeah, Brackhaven was a big scumball.

Since the Singularity is effectively the final occurrence in Neuromancer, where Neuromute explodes because it downloads an .exe from alpha Centauri, runs it and explodes, all the small AI are shards of Deus. So yes, an awakening pilot program effectively is a pilot program that is controlled by a part of Deus. That makes them evil. All of them.

While that's an INTERESTING interpretation, that's in no way supported concretely by canon. So I would say that AI could possibly be evil, but there's no evidence to indicate they *are* evil. It's analagous to saying "Anyone who has cyberware COULD ALSO be controlled by the cyberware manufacturer's secret control protocols that we've never seen, so everyone with cyberware is evil" or perhaps "All humans are evil because they are descended of Adam, and he was guilty of sin in the eyes of god, and cast from the garden of eden." I.E. an interesting direction, but only an interpretation of certain assumptions, and factually baseless as far as I'm concerned.

Amorality is a facet of actual behavior, not potential behavior. I potentially could murder someone. This does not make me evil or amoral, however.

Edit: As for the New Revolution, I wasn't aware they were facist. I thought they only wished to restore the United States as a nation?

[Ascalaphus]

It was hard not to notice the Shutdown. The governor of the Seattle Metroplex was locked inside when it happened, and it was liberated by the army. Also, it was a major shopping/entertainment/economical hub. When it shuts down for two years, people notice.

So, some more particularly deserving people not yet mentioned...
* The IEs, especially the ones who set up the Tirs as neomedieval fascist-commie feudal "paradises".
* The Aztechnology shareholders and higher-ups
* Whoever really runs Horizon?
* Aden (he did exterminate an entire major city in a fit of pique, after all)

[hermit]

So I would say that AI could possibly be evil, but there's no evidence to indicate they *are* evil.

Which AI so far has not at least been hinted at having dangerous and hostile motives, between the mass murderers and human torture experimenters like Mirage (Psychotrope), Deus, Sojourner and that child-to-murder manipulation thing from Emergence, and all the other rogue AI, apart from the taxicab in NYC?

As for the New Revolution, I wasn't aware they were facist. I thought they only wished to restore the United States as a nation?

They also were heavily military focused and wanted a society where the military trumps everything, which is exactly what the Duce was into.

"All humans are evil because they are descended of Adam, and he was guilty of sin in the eyes of god, and cast from the garden of eden."

There're around 3 billion people who believe this to some extent (with the vast majority thinking a carpenter from Palestine then took the evil on them and was crucified for it). But yes, it is not stone cold fact. It's a likely interpretation, though. Likely enough for me to put them on my list.

Which still is my list, not Sengir's or anyone else's, so I can damn well put everyone I want on it. If I wanted Pandora on it because I hate Star Wars with a passion (which I don't, for the record), I could do that.

[Adarael]

Which AI so far has not at least been hinted at having dangerous and hostile motives, between the mass murderers and human torture experimenters like Mirage (Psychotrope), Deus, Sojourner and that child-to-murder manipulation thing from Emergence, and all the other rogue AI, apart from the taxicab in NYC?

Any AI that is a PC, for one. There's no need to take a flaw that compels you to be amoral, or even lose control of your character if Deus wills it. Additionally, the Jack B Nimble'd AIs that have been created haven't evidenced any compulsory amorality, though in many cases they've evidenced insanity by dint of being code-corrupted. The fact that there isn't information on them is kind of what I mean: without information on random AIs, we can't simply assume they are all evil. Thousands or tens of thousands of evil AIs roaming the matrix is something that would bear mentioning.

They also were heavily military focused and wanted a society where the military trumps everything, which is exactly what the Duce was into.

Ahh, I must have missed that. I haven't looked at them in a long time.

There're around 3 billion people who believe this to some extent (with the vast majority thinking a carpenter from Palestine then took the evil on them and was crucified for it). But yes, it is not stone cold fact. It's a likely interpretation, though. Likely enough for me to put them on my list.

I think we have differing definitions of "likely", here.

I realize it's your list, yes. But without explanation, you have to expect that people will want you to say a bit more. I could make a list of evil NPCs that need a bullet, and list out, "All Guardian Spirits, the president of the Trans-Polar Aleut Nation, and Maria Mercurial", and people would probably want to know *why*.

[Sengir]

It was hard not to notice the Shutdown. The governor of the Seattle Metroplex was locked inside when it happened, and it was liberated by the army. Also, it was a major shopping/entertainment/economical hub. When it shuts down for two years, people notice.

Sure, the shutdown itself was noticed. The question is, how much do people know about the reasons behind it and the connections to the Crash 2.0?

As for guys who deserve it...Humanis always are good targets if you need to sight in your new grenade launcher

[CanRay]

In Shadowrun, the question is not "who deserves a bullet". It's "who doesn't?"

Succinctly put.

Come on, folks. The anti-social, borderline sociopathic, Neo-Anarchistic Individuals who shoot folks in the face for money are the HEROES of the story. Remember that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Succinctly put.

Come on, folks. The anti-social, borderline sociopathic, Neo-Anarchistic Individuals who shoot folks in the face for money are the HEROES of the story. Remember that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not heroes, only not the villains.

[Adarael]

And that's the solid truth of the matter.

Honestly, I've taken "Evil" in the context of this thread to mean "So vile that they actually stand out amongst the millions of people who are merely horrible."

[CanRay]

Not heroes, only not the villains.

It's cyberpunk. The difference being?

[hermit]

Any AI that is a PC, for one.

Well, there are rules for playing soul-eating monsters and toxic/twisted mages/adepts, so "just because it's a PC does not mean it can't be evil" really doesn't fly with SR. Ad with Free Spirit characters you have a class of characters that theoretically can be taken over and subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by any reasonably competent magican who is at least a grade 1 initiate, by way of astrally questing. Without having to take any flaw. SR4 went down that path, so "because it'S a PC that's impossible" is not valid anymore.

I think we have differing definitions of "likely", here.

Likely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I see this from a meta perspective as well as ingame, and both seem to me to point towards the fracturing of the Singularity due to a virus (from Alpha Centauri in the Sprawl serien; from Winternight in SR) more than to anywhere else. TThe narrative in a shared universe with easily 30 authors is anything but coherent, of course, so YMMV.

I realize it's your list, yes. But without explanation, you have to expect that people will want you to say a bit more. I could make a list of evil NPCs that need a bullet, and list out, "All Guardian Spirits, the president of the Trans-Polar Aleut Nation, and Maria Mercurial", and people would probably want to know *why*.

And then you get an answer. You don't have to agree.

[Adarael]

Well, there are rules for playing soul-eating monsters and toxic/twisted mages/adepts, so "just because it's a PC does not mean it can't be evil" really doesn't fly with SR. Ad with Free Spirit characters you have a class of characters that theoretically can be taken over and subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by any reasonably competent magican who is at least a grade 1 initiate, by way of astrally questing. Without having to take any flaw. SR4 went down that path, so "because it'S a PC that's impossible" is not valid anymore.

Yeah, but in most of those cases, they call out, "Hey, these are soul-sucking monsters! They are vile creatures! You should know that before hand!"

As for the free spirits, that doesn't make the free spirits evil. It makes them dangerous if their name gets out. Anybody can be subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by a competent magician, with Control Thoughts, honestly.

[hermit]

Yeah, but in most of those cases, they call out, "Hey, these are soul-sucking monsters! They are vile creatures! You should know that before hand!"

Some people would now argue you only limit everyone's ability to play vampires and their ilk that way, which is totally mean and evil. Or you could argue that, if some PC options are inherently evil (ot necessarily the mutant virus fraction, but the twisted way/toxic mages) why can't others be?

As for the free spirits, that doesn't make the free spirits evil.

It doesn't, but it makes them liable to "lose control of your character if [that mage] wills it." If one character class always has this sword of damocles above their heads, why not another, too?

Anybody can be subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by a competent magician, with Control Thoughts, honestly.

That spell gives you at least a chance to fight back, burn edge and whatnot, and the mage needs to be in LOS to cast it on you. It can happen anytime, by anyone who has ever seen or read of the free spirit, and without any chance to fight back, with a metaquest.

[Adarael]

It doesn't, but it makes them liable to "lose control of your character if [that mage] wills it." If one character class always has this sword of damocles above their heads, why not another, too?

Oh, I quite agree. I was simply drawing the distinction that it doesn't necessarily make a character *evil* to have a drawback like that, merely dangerous.

[Wakshaani]

It's cyberpunk. The difference being?

Well, Shadowrun is a cyberpunk environment, and Cyberpunk, believe it or not, draws heavily from Noir.

Which rings out an old quote.

"In normal stories, the protagonist is a hero ... he's the right guy who does the right thing at the right time. In noir, one of those is wrong."

And I *love* that.

Shadowrun's filled with people who aren't good guys ... but they're just good enough.

[Irion]

Ad with Free Spirit characters you have a class of characters that theoretically can be taken over and subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by any reasonably competent magican who is at least a grade 1 initiate, by way of astrally questing. Without having to take any flaw. SR4 went down that path, so "because it'S a PC that's impossible" is not valid anymore.

Well, but this might not be one of the best ideas. I mean you enter the realm of the spirit. Don't know how they might defend it.
It should not be easy to invade the domain of a spirit of force 6 or higher.
The guys working with insect spirits on the metaplance have magic 11 or higher.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, Brackhaven was a big scumball.

Honestly, I've taken "Evil" in the context of this thread to mean "So vile that they actually stand out amongst the millions of people who are merely horrible."

Yep, it was a combination of those two thoughts that led to me nominating the Brackhaven clan for Ex-Ex therapy. I mean, really, the body snatchers from astral spaaaaaaaace are way more dangerous than Brackhaven in absolute terms what with the whole Ibn Eisa and hating all life thing, but odds are they won't inspire the same amount of contempt from your players that you can extract from a good ol' fashioned crooked politician. And contempt is what you need if you really want your players to get their hate on before they cap the villain of the week.