[X] My Assistant

[Wakshaani]

Oh, I adore me some Brackhaven. Heck, I voted for him!

That right there is a *quality* villain. He's understandable, easy to hate, but thinks of himself as the good guy ... all the elemnets that you need!

Add in hypocritical backstory (He's taking the name of a man's Ork child!) and people just start CHOMPING for him to die.

And now he's governor of Seattle. Whee!

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, if I were to make this list it'd ideally be filled with guys that get the PCs to say things like "Hey, we shot somebody who deserved it!" or "That guy was a real asshole."

[LurkerOutThere]

It is unfortunate that so many people in the world have chosen violence as the only medium they will speak in.
It is fortunate that I am so much better at violence then so many of them. - Lifeseeker, Ork Martial Artist and Medic

[CanRay]

"You can get more things with kind words and a team of Shadowrunners than you can with kind words alone." - Jon "Money" Johnson, 2055, upon leaving his Megacorporation at the end of his contract as a Mr. Johnson.

[hermit]

Well, but this might not be one of the best ideas. I mean you enter the realm of the spirit. Don't know how they might defend it.
It should not be easy to invade the domain of a spirit of force 6 or higher.
The guys working with insect spirits on the metaplance have magic 11 or higher.

The NPC does a metaquest by the hard&fast rules, which does include a chance of failure. However, there is nothing, absolutly nothing, by the rules, that the PC can do.

[Fatum]

Which AI so far has not at least been hinted at having dangerous and hostile motives, between the mass murderers and human torture experimenters like Mirage (Psychotrope), Deus, Sojourner and that child-to-murder manipulation thing from Emergence, and all the other rogue AI, apart from the taxicab in NYC?

What is it about the AI designed to protect and aid a bunch of people having dangerous and hostile motives?

Well, there are rules for playing soul-eating monsters and toxic/twisted mages/adepts, so "just because it's a PC does not mean it can't be evil" really doesn't fly with SR. Ad with Free Spirit characters you have a class of characters that theoretically can be taken over and subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by any reasonably competent magican who is at least a grade 1 initiate, by way of astrally questing. Without having to take any flaw. SR4 went down that path, so "because it'S a PC that's impossible" is not valid anymore.

Uh, except the rules for blood mages, toxics and such mark them as insane and inherently evil clearly. Same goes for Free Spirits - the rules are out there for all to see. Nowhere is it said in canon sources, however, that the AIs are inherently evil, far as I am aware. And I repeat: Deus did not reach godhood, his plan failed, there's no solid reason to assume everything tree-shaped in the matrix is Deus. If you're willing to go down that path, the AIs can channel any of the Greats, and there's nothing on them being inherently evil any more than humans.

Some people would now argue you only limit everyone's ability to play vampires and their ilk that way, which is totally mean and evil. Or you could argue that, if some PC options are inherently evil (ot necessarily the mutant virus fraction, but the twisted way/toxic mages) why can't others be?

Because they're not marked as such? You know, just an idea - the inherently evil options are marked as being inherently evil.

It doesn't, but it makes them liable to "lose control of your character if [that mage] wills it." If one character class always has this sword of damocles above their heads, why not another, too?

Every character is liable to "lose control of your character if [that mage] wills it", and a metaquest is more difficult than casting a single spell, without doubt.
Besides, can't you as a free spirit defend your metaplane domain?

[CanRay]

Besides, can't you as a free spirit defend your metaplane domain?

'Bout the same way a Street Sami protects his personal cardboard box with his Ares Predator. You can only keep what you can hold onto.

[Irion]

However, there is nothing, absolutly nothing, by the rules, that the PC can do.

There is not much an PC can do in general if you send a bunch of Magic 11 guys after him, if he is only out of chargen.


There aro no hard rules about it.

If an
initiate is undergoing a metaplanar quest to destroy a Force
6 free spirit, the trial could consist of six challenging scenes.
More importantly, the difficulty of the trials should match
the difficulty of the goal. Hiding an astral link for a weak
focus shouldn’t be a terribly dangerous affair, but hunting
down a powerful spirit in its home turf with the intent of
destroying it should be epic in scope.

Thats the only thing I could find. And six challenges does not sound something you can do easy. (As a matter of fact, a session has often less scence)

But the free spirit rules are fucked up anyway. If you use them a player might just get a heck of pacts and a good lists of contacts having a Karma income with three digits a month.

Yes, a GM might abuse this possibility. But thats true for everything. Every runner getting some cyberware installed by a streetdoc with a loyalty less than 4 could turn up with a cortex bomb. So what?
The spirit has just to check in(in his metaplance) once or twice every day or so. Since I guess the test will take a fair amount of time.
Than he might butcher them on his "home ground".

Yes, you have no possibility to defend yourself. As you have non if a bunch of magic 11 mages try to murder you in your sleep.

On topic though:
I guess for a dystopia the more fitting question would be: Who is asking for a bullet?
I guess you could say Lofyr deserves a bullet. But it would only make im ask for ketshup.

@Brazilian_Shinobi

Also, 9/11 was in the open for anyone to see. We are talking about a building the size of a small neighborhood who locked out from the outside. People didn't know what happened until UCAS sent the Army to liberate it. And yes, it was said from the beggining that the truth never came out.

As did for 9/11. Only a few people know the command structure of Al Kaida. How the guys were recruited exactly. How the planes were taken over.
And a lot of other details rest in the dark. If you get yourself to investigate it you will learn more about it.
I mean there sure worked hundreds of people on this (getting to know what exactly happened) there can only be a hand full having most of the facts. Just due to the quantity of information. (And some of those are even a matter of national/international security)

Same would be with Arcologie. Yes, the complete story won't be released. But the most common stuff will be out.
It is not that easy to get a coverstory for something that big. (You may hide some frindly fire in a war. But even this is something not so easy to do if you plan to do it for some years. Because people will talk.
What should you feed to the public? It was a free spirit? A single deranged man?

[hermit]

Besides, can't you as a free spirit defend your metaplane domain?

Nope.

Because they're not marked as such? You know, just an idea - the inherently evil options are marked as being inherently evil.

Vampires and the other (auto)cannibal PC options are not marked as evil, since they evidently were there to appeal to the oWoD fans. Neither are twisted way/Toxic mages marked as such, there's just a bunch of "you can allow them a PCs but know what you get into with this" flags for all I remember. Shadowrun doesn't suport 'inherently evil' any more than Dark Heresy does (where you can play cultists and worship the Ruinous Powers).

What is it about the AI designed to protect and aid a bunch of people having dangerous and hostile motives?

Which AI do you mean? Mirage? Who trapped hundreds of thousands in the Matrix to experiment on their brains? Very helpful and protective.

[LurkerOutThere]

Which AI do you mean? Mirage? Who trapped hundreds of thousands in the Matrix to experiment on their brains? Very helpful and protective.

Mirage never did this FYI.

[Irion]

@hermit

Besides, can't you as a free spirit defend your metaplane domain?

nope

Why not?
A spirit may return to his metaplain at any time. And if you are on the same plain you might get some ass kicking done.

Vampires and the other (auto)cannibal PC options are not marked as evil, since they evidently were there to appeal to the oWoD fans.

Yeah, and just hope you do not run into a GM who likes to rule with a "realistic world".

[hermit]

Mirage never did this FYI.

Psychotrope = Mirage.

Why not?
A spirit may return to his metaplain at any time. And if you are on the same plain you might get some ass kicking done.

Sure, but it's not like a bell rings when someone is wreaking havoc on it'S plane (nothing in the rules covers that, at least, because apparently nobody writing those rules thought of the first aproach of most players when tangling with a Free Spirit). I'm not saying there should be no way, but going by the rules there is none.

[Fatum]

Vampires and the other (auto)cannibal PC options are not marked as evil, since they evidently were there to appeal to the oWoD fans.

Right, they just need to feed on metahuman blood/flesh/whatever. Not evil in any way, totally tame.

Neither are twisted way/Toxic mages marked as such, there's just a bunch of "you can allow them a PCs but know what you get into with this" flags for all I remember.

So, saying they are inherently perverse, hostile to any and all metahuman life and make exemplar villains is not enough for you as a warning? Should they have out up a page-wide sign about them being evil or what?

Shadowrun doesn't suport 'inherently evil' any more than Dark Heresy does (where you can play cultists and worship the Ruinous Powers).

DH describes Chaos worship in no uncertain terms: corruption, insanity and damnation, forever straying from the Emperor's light. It makes no qualms labelling it as inherently evil and utterly self-destructive in the end.

Which AI do you mean? Mirage? Who trapped hundreds of thousands in the Matrix to experiment on their brains? Very helpful and protective.

Yep, him. Haven't seen that bit on hundreds of thousands in the fluff, source?

Psychotrope = Mirage.

...since that article has nothing about that.

[hermit]

Right, they just need to feed on metahuman blood/flesh/whatever. Not evil in any way, totally tame.

Souls. Yeah, harmless.

So, saying they are inherently perverse, hostile to any and all metahuman life and make exemplar villains is not enough for you as a warning? Should they have out up a page-wide sign about them being evil or what?

You are saying one kind of inherently hostile to metahumans PC is worse than others. I think they're all the same level of bad news.

Yep, him. Haven't seen that bit on hundreds of thousands in the fluff, source?...since that article has nothing about that.

Uhm, you haven't read the novel Psychotrope, have you?

Mirage, also known as Psychotrope ... took that [Fuchi's dissolution] to mean that the Virus had won by destroying its "home" grid. This activated latent programming that caused Mirage to believe that it must shutdown the grid (to destroy the "Virus" once and for all), causing the Seattle RTG to shutdown for 11 minutes on March 19, 2060 (detailed in the novel "Psychotrope").

The novel Psychotrope details how thousands of Matrix users - everyone in the Seattle grid - are put through the AI's little show of horrors, which makes most go insane and some become "adult Otaku". Please note how this was picked up later again with the Crash, and befroe that, Deus in Brainscan.

[Irion]

@hermit

Sure, but it's not like a bell rings when someone is wreaking havoc on it'S plane (nothing in the rules covers that, at least, because apparently nobody writing those rules thought of the first aproach of most players when tangling with a Free Spirit). I'm not saying there should be no way, but going by the rules there is none.

So what?
You got to check every now and then.
It is not like such a quest would be over in 5 minutes. More 5 days.

The novel Psychotrope details how thousands of Matrix users - everyone in the Seattle grid - are put through the AI's little show of horrors, which makes most go insane and some become "adult Otaku". Please note how this was picked up later again with the Crash, and befroe that, Deus in Brainscan.

Yeah. Mirage followed orders given.
Yeah, I mean how stupid is it to give someone the order to fire up the matrix equivalent of nuclear warheads if X happens, then but him in a coma and displace him and the whole missle side. Yeah, thats smart.

So the only thing to be said about Mirage is she is lawful or was.
But there is no evidence of beeing evil.

[hermit]

So what?
You got to check every now and then.
It is not like such a quest would be over in 5 minutes. More 5 days.

Still is a place for copious house ruling and GM's decisions, since the game just forgot all about this being possible. But yes, you absolutly should do that.

[Fatum]

Nope, I haven't read it. The wiki articles make the results look rather positive, and

This activated latent programming that caused Mirage to believe that it must shutdown the grid (to destroy the "Virus" once and for all), causing the Seattle RTG to shutdown.

is hardly consistent with

The novel Psychotrope details how thousands of Matrix users - everyone in the Seattle grid - are put through the AI's little show of horrors, which makes most go insane and some become "adult Otaku".

And this is why I don't agree to accept the novels as a part of the fluff. Even if they have luscious elven nipples.

[hermit]

But the action in that novel is canon fluff, live with it. All the adult otaku appeared again (one, Red Wraith, even pops up in Spy Games), and Brainscan and System Failure heavily depend on the events in that novel. You can ignore some of the novels, but some like Psychotrope, Secrets of Power, The Burning Time and Dragonheart are just too entrenched in Sourcebook fluff to be cast aside (nipples or no nipples).

Besides, the results of the experimentation in weapons technology, aviation and nuclear weapons in WW2 are pretty positive too, all in all. Does that make the war any more positive, or the dead any less dead? Ends and means.

[Irion]

Besides, the results of the experimentation in weapons technology, aviation and nuclear weapons in WW2 are pretty positive too, all in all. Does that make the war any more positive, or the dead any less dead? Ends and means.

Yeah. Because progress is so much faster in times of war. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)
The only war really speeding development would have been the cold one.
But WW2 might have thrown humanity about 30 years back.

[hermit]

Yeah. Because progress is so much faster in times of war.

Not quite. Wartime spending enabled as much research in WW2 as it did in the Cold War. Research that, without the war, would just not have happened like this. Neither would the American military/industrial complex exist, which is the basis of America'S current technological edge over everyone else.

[LurkerOutThere]

The novel Psychotrope details how thousands of Matrix users - everyone in the Seattle grid - are put through the AI's little show of horrors, which makes most go insane and some become "adult Otaku". Please note how this was picked up later again with the Crash, and befroe that, Deus in Brainscan.

Even if we take that oversimplification as basis it doesn't jive with your previous statements. Mirage did not intentionally trap those people in the Seattle grid to experiment on them. Gadzooks man, it's a fictional world with documented history (for the most part) could you at least keep the reasons for your prejudices accurate.

[Irion]

@hermit

Neither would the American military/industrial complex exist, which is the basis of America'S current technological edge over everyone else.

This complex seems more to be the reason america is currently going down. But anyway.

Not to say I do not understand your argument in the first place anyway.

Still is a place for copious house ruling and GM's decisions, since the game just forgot all about this being possible. But yes, you absolutly should do that.

As ist 99% of the rest of the game. So what.

[hermit]

This complex seems more to be the reason america is currently going down. But anyway.

Nah, the reason for that is called Wall Street.

As ist 99% of the rest of the game. So what.

It isn't. That's why there're rules. Though "In the end it's the GM's decision" is the cop-out of RPG writers for crappy rules ever since Storyteller.

Even if we take that oversimplification as basis it doesn't jive with your previous statements. Mirage did not intentionally trap those people in the Seattle grid to experiment on them. Gadzooks man, it's a fictional world with documented history (for the most part) could you at least keep the reasons for your prejudices accurate.

Gadzooks man, it's an internet forum but you could at least try not to troll.

[Fortinbras]

Vampires and the other (auto)cannibal PC options are not marked as evil, since they evidently were there to appeal to the oWoD fans. Neither are twisted way/Toxic mages marked as such, there's just a bunch of "you can allow them a PCs but know what you get into with this" flags for all I remember. Shadowrun doesn't suport 'inherently evil' any more than Dark Heresy does (where you can play cultists and worship the Ruinous Powers).

I came here with a simple dream. A dream, of killing all humans. And is this how it must end? I ask you, who's the real seven billion ton robot monster here? Not I... Not I.

[Grinder]

This thread is locked for 24 hours to give all of you the possibility to think about your posting style, tone, and behaviour.