Mage Hunting and Personal Magic Defense, Astral Hazing is for the lazy Options

[CanRay]

That's why you need Astral Perception. To spot the spotter.
Then you just have to watch out for leaving ritual links.

C3 is your friend. Or a touch of napalm.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Napalm... The Quicker Fixer Upper... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[CanRay]

"Napalm Sticks To Mages"!

[Tyro]

"Napalm Sticks To Mages"!

Even Teflon mages? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[sabs]

The best way to kill a Mage is with a blimp drone with a mounted sniper rifle, from max range.
Or better yet, hacking his gremlin infected commlink, video taping him committing a crime, and sending said video tape to Knight Errant.

[Irion]

Sorry, but mages are quite easy to kill.
They have a low reaction score. Maybe 1 to 3.
They have a low body score and as a result low armor. Maybe 1-7. Human 1 to 3.
Because at Char gen they bleed BP as hell.
Mages are one of the builds, besides Technomancer, where it is worth to dropevery physical attribute to 1. (In Karmagen this ain't the case anymore)

So to kill a mage is not so though.
An exeption is the possession mage. This type of mage has a possibility to increase his body and armor far beyond the reach of a sam. (Yes, there are builds how a sam could get even more, but this would require a lot money and Essence and not a possibility at chargen)

So generally speaking it is quite easy to kill a mage. The sam would have higher INI and one shot would mostly take care of the mage.
This is, as far as I would go, also the reason possession mages are seen as so overpowered. They combine the options of a mage with the resistance of a tank.

[Yerameyahu]

None of that makes sense, Irion.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
What do you mean?
So a mage does not generally have a lower reaction and body score, compared to a Sam?
A Sam normally get some kind of reaction enhancer in ordert to get additional IP passes.

A mage needs to pay for spells, additional skills and an additional attribute. And of course for the quality in question.
So I guess, a mage won't be able to afford the attributes of a SAM.

If you look at the builds of mages posted here you will see, that most will have a deacent problem, if getting shot at.
The only execption beeing possession mages.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Yerameyahu
What do you mean?
So a mage does not generally have a lower reaction and body score, compared to a Sam?
A Sam normally get some kind of reaction enhancer in ordert to get additional IP passes.

A mage needs to pay for spells, additional skills and an additional attribute. And of course for the quality in question.
So I guess, a mage won't be able to afford the attributes of a SAM.

If you look at the builds of mages posted here you will see, that most will have a deacent problem, if getting shot at.
The only execption beeing possession mages.

Well, One of the Mages in our Group has an Initiative of 13, and 4 Passes (Our Combat Mage)... Seems pretty damn fast to me.
The Face Mage has a 10 Initiative and 3 Passes.

The Combat mage has a Body of 6
The Face Mage has a Body of 3 (So he is a little light compared to a Street Sam)

The Combat Mage has a Reaction of 8
The Face Mage has a Reaction of 6... (So not all that much less than a Street Sam)

Neither of the Mages has a Physical Stat below a 3 (The Face Mage has a 3 Body *shrug*)

Being shot at is fairly easy for a Mage to avoid.
Physical Barrier Spells
Armor Spells
Avoidance Spells (Detect Enemy, Combat Sense)
Hiding Spells (Invisibility, Physical Mask, etc.)
Battlefield Control Spells (Shape "X" Spells, Hot Potato, Confusion, Mist, etc.)
Using spells from Cover, etc.

There are a lot of ways for a Mage to avoid the Bullet, so to speak. How good is that Street Sam at avoiding the Mana Bolt?

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Physical Barrier Spells

Which you need to sustain.

Avoidance Spells (Detect Enemy, Combat Sense)

Which you need to sustain.

The Combat Mage has a Reaction of 8

How? Increased reaction spell?

Hiding Spells (Invisibility, Physical Mask, etc.)

Has to be sustained too.

Yes, of course you may start with three sustaining foci at a force of 3.
But you need to pay for it. This would end up to 3 BP each, so 12 in total.
Not to mention, that even small amounts of BC tend to just reduce your foci to be useless.
Yes, of course you may have an increase reflex (force 4) Focus for having 4 IPs. Yes, of course thats better than everything the avarage SAM has out of Chargen.
But please consider, that each point of BC reduces your IP by one this way.

So yes, if you look at a mage in an environment he is perfectly adepted to and pit him against a SAM who is not, yes the mage will win.

Yes a mage has close to no limit on possible improvement. But he does have a limit on Karma.
Yes there are ways around it. (But there are always things you need to houseroule to make a System work or interprete in a "strict" sence)
It is like the Genetic Heritage with the Synaptic Booster 3 with no Essence or Nuyen costs. Nobody would let it fly.

So yes, pit a starting SAM and a starting mage against each other. But please choose a surrounding which would be likly. Maybe somewhere in the barrens.
And now the mage has to deal with BC, maybe low light, light mist possibly (smog, pollution).
The detect enemy spell has lesser range than a pistol. The additional hits do not give much information etc. etc.

You can play the game the other way too. Put both in the desert and give the SAM the possibility to detect the mage (Ultrasound, Radar) and a sniper rifle.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Which you need to sustain.

Which you need to sustain.


How? Increased reaction spell?


Has to be sustained too.

Yes, of course you may start with three sustaining foci at a force of 3.
But you need to pay for it. This would end up to 3 BP each, so 12 in total.
Not to mention, that even small amounts of BC tend to just reduce your foci to be useless.
Yes, of course you may have an increase reflex (force 4) Focus for having 4 IPs. Yes, of course thats better than everything the avarage SAM has out of Chargen.
But please consider, that each point of BC reduces your IP by one this way.

SO WHAT... so he either sustains spells, has a Spirit do it for him, uses Foci, or whatever. That does not matter. If you take away the benefits of any Archtype and then compare them to another without compromising them as well, they will always come out subpar in the comparison. The only way to truly compare them is to use them as they are designed to be used.

Among the mages in the various groups I have been in...

Some use Spells sustained by Foci to achieve stats above normal...
Some use Spirits...
SOME use Cyber/Bio ware to do so.
And some sustain them themselves.

So yes, if you look at a mage in an environment he is perfectly adepted to and pit him against a SAM who is not, yes the mage will win.

Yes a mage has close to no limit on possible improvement. But he does have a limit on Karma.
Yes there are ways around it. (But there are always things you need to houseroule to make a System work or interprete in a "strict" sence)
It is like the Genetic Heritage with the Synaptic Booster 3 with no Essence or Nuyen costs. Nobody would let it fly.

Of course not, the Genetic Enhancements still cost Essence. Arguing otherwise is disengenuous.

So yes, pit a starting SAM and a starting mage against each other. But please choose a surrounding which would be likly. Maybe somewhere in the barrens.
And now the mage has to deal with BC, maybe low light, light mist possibly (smog, pollution).
The detect enemy spell has lesser range than a pistol. The additional hits do not give much information etc. etc.

Which is my assumption. Not all places in the Barrens have BGC. Arguing otherwise is also Disengenuous.
The Sam has many of the same penalties.
Detect Enemy can have a HUGE area. MUCH greater than the range of the Pistol. Magic*Force*Meters for the version that I have for my character. Even with a Moderate Force of 3 and a Magic of 3, I get 90 Meters... WELL beyond the range of your peasly pistol.

You can play the game the other way too. Put both in the desert and give the SAM the possibility to detect the mage (Ultrasound, Radar) and a sniper rifle.

You do realize that the Ultrasound and Radar is useless beyond 100 meters, right? Get real here Irion. Most engangements in shadowrun are well within 100 Meters, and are generally in areas where such things as technology are limited. Radar and Ultrasound are of failry limited use in clutterred environments, afterall.

I am not arguing that the Mage is crazy overpowered. I am just pointing out that a Mage does not have to be as limited as you seem to think that they are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Not even close, in fact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Some use Spirits...

Right. I forgot about the trick of using spirits of men casting and sustaining your spells for you.

Which is my assumption. Not all places in the Barrens have BGC. Arguing otherwise is also Disengenuous.

Yes, but some have. And since you do not get hits back, if you walk trough a BC... (As far as I know only quickend spells regenerate their "hits")

You do realize that the Ultrasound and Radar is useless beyond 100 meters, right?

Radar? Yes.
Ultrasound? Where do you get this from?

Radar and Ultrasound are of failry limited use in clutterred environments, afterall.

And where does it say that?

I am not saying they are very limited. I am just saying there are not that good in direct confrontation with the opposition.
(There are many, many ways for example detect enemys can be turned useless. If the guy is not after you but after the same thing you are after etc.)

[Yerameyahu]

Let's not rehash the mage vs. sam debate again, facrissake.

I'd be surprised if Ultrasound worked even as far as 100m, really.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am not saying they are very limited. I am just saying there are not that good in direct confrontation with the opposition.

Where do you get this feeling from. There are many more thread topics on how the Mage is Overpowered as compared to every other archtype in the book. I do not think you understand mages as well as you may think you do.

[longbowrocks]

Radar? Yes.
Ultrasound? Where do you get this from?

100 meter range? Honestly, I don't see where that's listed for either radar or ultrasound. At least, a search for '100' in both AR and AU turns up nothing of interest.

[Irion]

@longbowrocks
Radar has a signal raiting of 2. This translates in the "signal raiting table" to 100m.

[longbowrocks]

@longbowrocks
Radar has a signal raiting of 2. This translates in the "signal raiting table" to 100m.

:facepalm: Thanks. I can't believe I didn't think of that. On the other hand, can you point that out for me somewhere? I see that ultrawideband has 2, but the only reference to normal radar signal that I can find is the table on SR4A p. 222, which suggests signal 8-ish, or at least that 2 is way too weak.

Honestly, at the very least I would make signal = rating.

[Irion]

The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers as ultrasound.
It can penetrate its rating x 5 of cumulative barrier Structure
ratings (see p. 157, SR4). For example, a Rating 2 radar sensor
could “see through” two Structure rating 5 walls. It can be used
to detect weapons and cyberware on a person in the same way as
millimeter wave radar (p. 255, SR4). Radar sensor cyberware has
an effective Signal rating of 2 for determining the sensor’s range.
Radar sensors are vulnerable to jammers and jamming.

Thats is of course ultrawideband and there is no other radar sensor. (For this purpose)

[longbowrocks]

Thats is of course ultrawideband and there is no other radar sensor. (For this purpose)

Um, what? Oh, you mean that no other radar sensor lists its signal, so we use that? I figure normal radar would have a lot more range since it doesn't process much detail anyway. Balance wise, it costs 5 capacity. That's way to much to basically be ultrawideband radar with no nifty "look through walls" bonus.

[Irion]

@longbowrocks
What are you talking about?
The radar sensor is headware and takes up 2 points of capacity.

[longbowrocks]

I thought we might not be on the same page, I was talking about the vehicle sensor, which is what everyone... Oh goddammit. I just realized I was off topic. My bad guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Irion]

Yeah, I read the other thread too at this moment and though you gave a response there. Than I was looking for my post and there was the AHHHH-effect.

[Mäx]

I like the concept but I think it's fundamentally flawed, as is a lot of the advice being thrown around. SR is a game of glass cannons and defenses simply do not keep up well the offensive capabilities of most characters. A mage hunter isn't necessarily someone who the mage can't hurt, he's someone who's very good at killing mages.

If the mage can't hurt yoo, then your on a pretty damm good start at being good at killing mages.
For example one of my 750 karma builds throws 22 dice for absorption(combatspells, so he most of the time absorbs 7(or more) points of force from combat spells used against him and after the first one he can throw back a force 16 stunbolt with 0 drain or if he doesn't have direct los or want's a real area effect a force 9 ball lightning with measly 2 drain witch is resisted to 0. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[longbowrocks]

If the mage can't hurt yoo, then your on a pretty damm good start at being good at killing mages.
For example one of my 750 karma builds throws 22 dice for absorption(combatspells, so he most of the time absorbs 7(or more) points of force from combat spells used against him and after the first one he can throw back a force 16 stunbolt with 0 drain or if he doesn't have direct los or want's a real area effect a force 9 ball lightning with measly 2 drain witch is resisted to 0. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So you're implying the force 16 stunbolt is 0 drain before even resisting drain? I don't see how that's possible.