[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

"Look for Angry or Scared, and tell me." Even if you're the stealthiest Mo'Fo around, you still have emotions. That drips into the Astral Plane.

Of course, if you have some Ice Cold bugger like my Accountant From Hell, then some problems might occur.

[hobgoblin]

not helping but i am reminded of the attempt to use a watcher as translator (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

not helping but i am reminded of the attempt to use a watcher as translator (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*Bunch of babbling in unknown language* "What did he say?" *Watcher babbles back in exactly the same language, in the same tone*

[baronspam]

Sometimes as a GM you have to make arbitrary decisions regarding stealth and circumstance. Just because you you have an awesome success on your stealthy check and the opposing player doesn't even have enough dice to match you. If your walking down a narrow well lit hallway with the opposing player two feet away you really need to bring common sense to bear. My players have argued this with me in several different games but I stand firm in some situations.

This is it exactly. I don't care how many dice you have for infiltration. If you want to walk in front of someone in plain sight without being seen thats an invisibility spell. Stealth lets you sneak around, time the pattern in the guards patrol to know when to dash, recognize where the holes in the security sensor coverage are, etc. But you can't just open a door that someone is staring at and walk through "unnoticed" no matter how stealthy you are.

[CanRay]

That's why you flip from Ice Cold to Pink Mohawk. Why bother opening the door when a shape charge of Bangalores works so much better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Seth]

Wow what a lot of answers in a short time. As the OP I think its fair to give a summary of the answers, and how I feel about them:

"Use them as Talkers: Go send a message to this person"
How does the watcher find the person? The only possible answer is "you will find him at <address> ", astral tracking or the search power (which Watchers don't have) . So astral tracking requires assenssing and 1 hour. Going to the address requires at least one hit on area knowledge (which I would be happy to assume the watcher has: at level 1). So 1 time in three we have the critical glitch, and thats always funny with messages. And whats the chance that the watcher will hit a background count of 1 on route and be disrupted?

"Watch this door opening"
Sorry thats what infiltration skill is all about. You just have trick / conceal / distract the watcher. Infiltration is not invisibility it's knowing how to get into place, and the idea that a thing with attribute + skill = 2 can stop a 20 die infiltrator I find...strange. I also think that the watchers will be reporting a lot of false positives (just make a roll to see if its spotted anything in the last hour...oops a critical glitch)

"You can always aspect them to make them more useful in their "Watching" role"
I am away from books at the moment, I shall go and look into this. I hadn't heard of aspecting them before.

"Mages are already overpowered, don't give them more"
Was also an interesting argument. You either agree with it or not, but basically its saying get rid of watchers.

"Use them in packs"
Good idea, I need to think how to do it. Assist other bonus's are interesting.

While thinking about it, I realised that I had forgotten to include the actively looking bonus in my calculation. This increases the number of die the watcher rolls from 2 to 5. At 5 die they no longer are totally and utterly rubbish.

My feelings so far, although I hope the conversation continues, is that they are so rubbish they are better removed from the game. I don't like as a GM the effort of explaining to a player that his cunning plan involving watchers will almost certainly go wrong because the watcher is rubbish and will probably critically glitch. I don't want the hassle as a player of summoning one just to watch failure after failure, and have the watcher screw up my plans with its critical failures.

[Seth]

This is it exactly. I don't care how many dice you have for infiltration. If you want to walk in front of someone in plain sight without being seen thats an invisibility spell. Stealth lets you sneak around, time the pattern in the guards patrol to know when to dash, recognize where the holes in the security sensor coverage are, etc. But you can't just open a door that someone is staring at and walk through "unnoticed" no matter how stealthy you are

Its off topic, but I only half agree.

The player needs to come up with a way to influence the guard to move, be distracted...etc. And that's one of the main uses of the infiltration skill. Watcher or not, someone with a lot of infiltration skill should be able to sort it out. Of course you might not know that the watcher exists...which makes it more interesting. But don't forget that the watcher is so rubbish that it will be reporting a lot of false positives "the door moved master", "not again you fool...I'm eating dinner and its the 5th false alarm tonight"

[Ranarion]

But don't forget that the watcher is so rubbish that it will be reporting a lot of false positives "the door moved master", "not again you fool...I'm eating dinner and its the 5th false alarm tonight"

how often do they glitch with their 7 dice?

2 basics, +3 activly looking, +2 obvios Object.

And if you let them sit there for Hours, they just use the rule to buy success.. 1 is always there, so the Watcher recognize the Door is opened, he may not see the reason because the guys is stealthy, but the Door aint got a stealth roll. No false-alarm also.

[Bobby]

"Use them as Talkers: Go send a message to this person"
How does the watcher find the person? The only possible answer is "you will find him at <address> ", astral tracking or the search power (which Watchers don't have) .

Powers: Astral Form, Search

Search is one of the main uses of watchers!

[baronspam]

Its off topic, but I only half agree.

The player needs to come up with a way to influence the guard to move, be distracted...etc. And that's one of the main uses of the infiltration skill. Watcher or not, someone with a lot of infiltration skill should be able to sort it out. Of course you might not know that the watcher exists...which makes it more interesting. But don't forget that the watcher is so rubbish that it will be reporting a lot of false positives "the door moved master", "not again you fool...I'm eating dinner and its the 5th false alarm tonight"

Unless your infiltrator is also able to perceive astral, he probably doesn't know the watcher exists. Infiltration skill might let you find an air duct to crawl through to get around the room, it might let you realize that room is a choke point and a likely spot for magical security and you should go another way. But if the only way is to open door A, walk through room, and open door B to get out, you are hosed. It doesn't matter how stealthy or tricky you are light still bouces off your hide and you still have a signature in astral space. Watchers might not be the brightest things, but they don't blink, they don't text message their girlfriends, the don't go to the bathroom, take coffee breaks, or spend their shift watching AR porn on their comlinks. You can't spoof a phone call to them and they don't care if you tossed a pebble around the corner, because thier instructions said to watch the door, not listen for pebbles. In some ways they are easier to handle than metahuman guards because they won't go investigate things outside of their orders. In fact, if the instructions said to watch the door they probably don't care if you cut a hole in the wall with a monfiliment chainsaw or make more noise than a heard of elephants crawling in the unility space above the ceiling tiles. But if they have been told to watch a door then your only real choice is to have the mage banish it or dont use the bloody door.

[hobgoblin]

"You can always aspect them to make them more useful in their "Watching" role"
I am away from books at the moment, I shall go and look into this. I hadn't heard of aspecting them before.

Not sure about aspect, but there is a bit about attuning them to a specific astral shadow or aura in digital grimoire (a pdf only release, and therefor often overlooked).

This then makes it "easier" for them to find and keep tabs on the subject. One can also use material links and similar, with the accompanying modifiers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not sure about aspect, but there is a bit about attuning them to a specific astral shadow or aura in digital grimoire (a pdf only release, and therefor often overlooked).

This then makes it "easier" for them to find and keep tabs on the subject. One can also use material links and similar, with the accompanying modifiers.

Yep, it is Attuning, not aspecting... I mistakenly referenced the Wrong Term, and Wrong Book (what happens when you do not have access to your boks)... Thanks Hobgoblin...

[Seth]

Search is one of the main uses of watchers!

Awesome. I was AFB so I didn't realise that. Of course they get 2 die to search...and critically glitch 1/3

[Seth]

real choice is to have the mage banish it or dont use the bloody door.

You cannot have the mage banish it: thats the same as letting the watcher do its thing.

I can see that we don't agree on what the infiltration skill does. You think its about moving silently, and sneaking. I think its about being able to break into places without being observed and being able to distract observers. It doesn't matter that much that we don't agree: its the GMs opinion that counts.

The door example isn't really real anyway. Doors are opened and closed often: thats the nature of doors. I guess very occasionally that might be useful but its an extremely small use. So we've worked out that they are not good for finding people and talking to. They are mostly rubbish at spotting people. The are disrupted at the slightest background count. Concealment just stops them dead in their tracks...etc

I guess we have also worked out that they can watch a door and see if it opens... I have to admit that I am not very excited about that.

I think I stand by the "they are so rubbish we might as well get rid of them from the game" but YMMV

[Seth]

real choice is to have the mage banish it or dont use the bloody door.

You cannot have the mage banish it: thats the same as letting the watcher do its thing.

I can see that we don't agree on what the infiltration skill does. You think its about moving silently, and sneaking. I think its about being able to break into places without being observed and being able to distract observers. It doesn't matter that much that we don't agree: its the GMs opinion that counts.

The door example isn't really real anyway. Doors are opened and closed often: thats the nature of doors. I guess very occasionally that might be useful but its an extremely small use. So we've worked out that they are not good for finding people and talking to. They are mostly rubbish at spotting people. The are disrupted at the slightest background count. Concealment just stops them dead in their tracks...etc

I guess we have also worked out that they can watch a door and see if it opens... I have to admit that I am not very excited about that.

I think I stand by the "they are so rubbish we might as well get rid of them from the game" but YMMV

[Beetle]

The Secret Handshake detection spell from Spy Games (pg161) is great for watchers. In fact, the shadowtalk makes direct mention of this making another use for watchers.

[Fortinbras]

I know the number of hits on a Summoning for Watchers determines how long it sticks around in hours, but does it also determine the number of tasks it has like a regular spirit?
In addition to that, does binging a Watcher simply add to the hours it sticks around or does it keep it indefinitely until it's tasks are done?

[baronspam]

You cannot have the mage banish it: thats the same as letting the watcher do its thing.

I can see that we don't agree on what the infiltration skill does. You think its about moving silently, and sneaking. I think its about being able to break into places without being observed and being able to distract observers. It doesn't matter that much that we don't agree: its the GMs opinion that counts.

The door example isn't really real anyway. Doors are opened and closed often: thats the nature of doors. I guess very occasionally that might be useful but its an extremely small use. So we've worked out that they are not good for finding people and talking to. They are mostly rubbish at spotting people. The are disrupted at the slightest background count. Concealment just stops them dead in their tracks...etc

I guess we have also worked out that they can watch a door and see if it opens... I have to admit that I am not very excited about that.

I think I stand by the "they are so rubbish we might as well get rid of them from the game" but YMMV

There are lots of ways infiltration can get you around the watcher. The above mentioned air vent, finding another route through the complex by studying the floor plans, tricking the guards into running through the door for you to get the watcher to go report back the the mage, probably other things as well. That all falls under the "being tricky" part of infiltration, rather than the "being stealthy" part of infiltration. But if the watcher is watching the door, and you walk through the door, no amount of sneaky-tricky stuff will save you. You don't need to roll perception to see someone standing in plain sight in front of you. They are right bloody there. Infiltration can do alot of things but it can't make you invisible to someone who is looking directly at you when you have no cover. Thats like asking somone to make a perception check to find their cup of soycaf on the table in front of them. Unless its really dark, or you are really drunk, I am pretty sure that is an automatic success.

And when did we work out that watchers are not good at finding people? The do in fact have the search power, as was pointed out earlier in the thread. An air elemental would probably be better at it, but they have more drain to resist to. You get what you pay for.

[Adarael]

If there is a consistently well-lit hallway 30 meters long, 2 meters wide, and 3 meters tall, there is no way someone is going to be able to roll infiltration alone to traverse from the entrance on one end of the hallway to the other, and have the guard at that end not see them. Similarly, you cannot use *only* infiltration to slip through a monitored decontamination room (such as this one: http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/ph...uice-470712.jpg ) while a guard watches, because there is no place to hide - you will be apparent to the guard immediately upon entry. Infiltration is a powerful, requisite skill, but it cannot work miracles. In the same vein, you cannot use Con alone to convince someone to kill themselves, Pilot Aircraft to land if your plane has lost both its wings, Navigation if you have no means of setting reference points, or Tracking if your target has left (literally) no trace.

Situations where Infiltration or other skills automatically fail are rare, and should be, because they decrease player agency. But they exist. Sometimes, skills simply cannot be applied.

[Udoshi]

I had a mystic adept that used watchers like remote control kids toys.

Using the Passenger spell(from digital grimoire, which is like borrow sense but for all senses at a higher drain) on the spirit meant the adept could keep an eye on the spirit, see what it was doing in real time and, more importantly, use their own Perception skill.

Since watcher spirits Services are measured in Hours, not Tasks, the adept could update the watchers orders whenever it needed to do something different.

So, basically, a remote control spirit car.

[Yerameyahu]

I wonder which senses exactly you're borrowing from a watcher. I assume that, like all spirits, they basically just use native astral perception for everything.

[Udoshi]

Borrow sense specifically mentions being able to borrow astral sight(but because its one sense only, you get either sight or astral sight), which makes it a clever way to get the ability to see the astral as an adept without the Power for it.

Its either in street magic or the RC, but spirits do possess regular senses to use their Perception skill with. (someone in our party plays a free spirit, its come up a few times)


Using Passenger, you get all of that at once. Drain code could be better, though.

[CanRay]

"OK, go look and see if there's someone sleeping in the passenger's seat of the car following us, then report back. ... There is? Look again, and see if he has a plug like this," *Holds up the Deckers/Hackers Datajack* "Plugged into his skull. ... He does? Go back and pull it out."

*Car chasing us has the driver suffer Dumpshock and falls out of control before the Pilot Program kicks in*

[Yerameyahu]

Let me know if you find that page ref.

[Ascalaphus]

"OK, go look and see if there's someone sleeping in the passenger's seat of the car following us, then report back. ... There is? Look again, and see if he has a plug like this," *Holds up the Deckers/Hackers Datajack* "Plugged into his skull. ... He does? Go back and pull it out."

*Car chasing us has the driver suffer Dumpshock and falls out of control before the Pilot Program kicks in*

I like it, but there's a hitch: Watchers don't have Materialization, only Manifestation.