Is War! Really that Bad?, Fatum: I moved it here. Let's continue. Options

[Irion]

Target designators do not use a simple non-modulated signal to mark the target. It is, in fact, coded. Saying that you can emulate any target designator on the field means you can crack any of those codes, instantly.

You still need to know the modulation. So I do not see a problem. Sorry. It does not say you know every modulation used by everyone on the battlefield.
So I still do not see the problem, but it is late.

Yeah, Arsenal, Street Magic and Unwired all had weird rulings and more or less broken pieces, but nowhere as catastrophic as War!

The only catastrophic thing I have seen so far is the slow spell. And this spell ain't worse than the aspect mana static of the german streetmagic.
(Or the movementpower from the core book etc.)

[Medicineman]

There is no aspected Mana Static
neither in the German Streetmagic nor in the Basic Book !
....(might be in the old Fanpro Book....I'm not shure about that.)

with an aspected Dance
Medicineman

[Fatum]

You still need to know the modulation. So I do not see a problem. Sorry. It does not say you know every modulation used by everyone on the battlefield.
So I still do not see the problem, but it is late.

Okay, suppose my designator modulates the sinusoid with 101010101 signal, my squad mate's - with 110110110, and the guy's on the other side - with 100100100. Each of those is used to designate a target for its own missile, and neither we nor the guy on the other side know each other's modulating signals. Now, a mage casts a spell, and all those three missiles go off course and hit the target he designated.

The only catastrophic thing I have seen so far is the slow spell. And this spell ain't worse than the aspect mana static of the german streetmagic.
(Or the movementpower from the core book etc.)

New assault rifles? Unusable. Battlerifles? Leave you full of wtf (as seen above in this thread). High-power chambering? Stats which make no sense, and dubious fluff. Redundant Process Manufacturing? Dubious from the fluff perspective. Monofilament Grenades? Plain out retarded. CI Dragon Box Mine? Best friend of hungry peasants in combat zones, everywhere. Howitzer rounds, vehicle stats, MRSI, cruise missiles, spells - all of those are poorly thought through, poorly edited, or poorly coordinated with what the system already has. That makes the entirety of the book a catastrophe, pretty much nothing from the Game Information chapter being usable as is. Even CGL admits War! was its low point.

[suoq]

It is simply not possible to play with basic rules on throw additional dicepool boni with every new book. (See pornomancer)

It would IF there was a consistency to the cost of an additional die, but there really isn't.

4 additional dice worth of agility (a valuable stat in my opinion) costs a grand total of 11.4 BP and .4 essence. (Muscle Toner 4 = 6.4 BP of cash, 5 BP of restricted gear, and .8 bio essence, which, in my experience, is almost always the essence that halved in cost).
One can pick up an addition 4 dice in shooting by simply having a smartlink, a smartlinked gun, 3 other sensors, and having anyone in the team with a level 2 tacnet.

There is almost no reason someone expected to shoot a gun every mission shouldn't have those 8 dice. They're certainly a LOT more affordable than buying the 1 die you get by hard capping your agility, a purchase so unaffordable I've never been able to justify it.

The tools make things like the pornomancer possible not just because they add the number of ways you can get additional die, but because they invariably make some of those tools incredibly cheap due to the random nature of pricing. It's that inherent inconstant value of the price of a die that makes every rulebook lead to Pronomancers.

Edit: Note that the last two points of the muscle toner is the VAST majority of the cost of the muscle toner, roughly 8 BP, but 2 points of agility for 8 BP beats the heck out of 2 points of agility for 20 BP...

[Fatum]

It would IF there was a consistency to the cost of an additional die, but there really isn't.

4 additional dice worth of agility (a valuable stat in my opinion) costs a grand total of 11.4 BP and .4 essence. (Muscle Toner 4 = 6.4 BP of cash, 5 BP of restricted gear, and .8 bio essence, which, in my experience, is almost always the essence that halved in cost).
One can pick up an addition 4 dice in shooting by simply having a smartlink, a smartlinked gun, 3 other sensors, and having anyone in the team with a level 2 tacnet.

There is almost no reason someone expected to shoot a gun every mission shouldn't have those 8 dice. They're certainly a LOT more affordable than buying the 1 die you get by hard capping your agility, a purchase so unaffordable I've never been able to justify it.

The tools make things like the pornomancer possible not just because they add the number of ways you can get additional die, but because they invariably make some of those tools incredibly cheap due to the random nature of pricing. It's that inherent inconstant value of the price of a die that makes every rulebook lead to Pronomancers.

This is all correct, but the thing is, Shadowrun is not aiming to be a gamist system. The prices are dictated by the items' fluff, not the other way round; and the fluff is firmly based on classic cyberpunk novels.
So you can only speak about balance either on closely comparable things - like, items giving boni to the same stat; or outrageous broken cheese like Slow.

[Irion]

@Fatum

Now, a mage casts a spell, and all those three missiles go off course and hit the target he designated.

Why? Seriously I do not get it. (I might sound stupid to you now, but I can't help it)
I thought the mage has also to pick one, like 100101101.

Monofilament Grenades?

Have, overlooked that. Now I am crying.

Redundant Process Manufacturing? Dubious from the fluff perspective.

Well, but thats an issue with the hole object resistance crap. (Started with improved invisibility)

vehicle stats

Whats about them? I found the stats for humanoid drones in Arsenal worse.

CI Dragon Box Mine? Best friend of hungry peasants in combat zones, everywhere.

Do not get it... (You mean they steal it?)

But right you got point..

[suoq]

When everything is broken, deciding what's outrageous broken is like deciding what everyone's favorite color is. When you accept a point of agility costing anywhere from under 2 BP to 25 BP, stuff like Slow is just more of the same.

[Fatum]

@Fatum

Why? Seriously I do not get it. (I might sound stupid to you now, but I can't help it)
I thought the mage has also to pick one, like 100101101.

Because that's how the author said that spell works.

Whats about them? I found the stats for humanoid drones in Arsenal worse.

Ballast tanks galore! Armor(smart)! Woo-woo!

Do not get it... (You mean they steal it?)

Yes. Wear no metal@Get four drones costing in the thousands, iirc.

When everything is broken, deciding what's outrageous broken is like deciding what everyone's favorite color is. When you accept a point of agility costing anywhere from under 2 BP to 25 BP, stuff like Slow is just more of the same.

It's not that broken. Choosing to raise Agi to 6 is suboptimal, right, but it's partly balanced out by the augmented stat max rules, the maximal cost of items you get at chargen, and the Essence costs.
That's a non-issue, though, since who raises physical stats and not Magic to 6 at chargen anyway.

[longbowrocks]

Redundant Process Manufacturing? Dubious from the fluff perspective.

Seems to make sense to me: more processed = less natural = higher OR.

Monofilament Grenades? Plain out retarded.

They aren't that weak. I might even buy one as a collectors item someday.

[Yerameyahu]

How much more processed can a vehicle get?

It's not that they're weak. For one thing, they contain more monowire than they cost.

[Fatum]

Like, a couple magnitudes more.

[Glyph]

Overall, War seems to fail from a presentation standpoint (no maps, atrocious proofreading), a fluff standpoint (lack of even basic research, things that make no logical sense, and tasteless crap like killing Holocaust victim ghosts to get nazi artifacts), and a crunch standpoint (very little new stuff, but apparently most of it is inconsistent with previous rules, overpowered, or both). From everything I've heard, it's definitely a book I'm going to skip.

[longbowrocks]

How much more processed can a vehicle get?

Give it a few extra acid baths post production for the post-industrial shine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
That, and you could decide the leather seats are too natural, instead going for discarded silicon wafers.

It's not that they're weak. For one thing, they contain more monowire than they cost.

Oh, that again? Isn't the same true for laes cigarettes?

I seem to remember someone saying you could get better prices for monowire if you just scavenged it from a whip, but that doesn't add up. Maybe they meant microwire, which is for grappling guns, but does the same thing without the AP (cost: 1/20 normal monowire).

[Udoshi]

There is no aspected Mana Static
neither in the German Streetmagic nor in the Basic Book !
....(might be in the old Fanpro Book....I'm not shure about that.)

with an aspected Dance
Medicineman

As far as I understand with Aspected mana static, it was completely brokenly overpowered and removed before publishing.
.... just someone forgot to remove it from a table in the back of a book, I think.

[Irion]

@Udoshi
Friend of mine has a german hard copy with this spell in it.

@Fatum

Because that's how the author said that spell works.

Can't see that, sorry.

@Yerameyahu

It's not that they're weak. For one thing, they contain more monowire than they cost.

And they should be weak and very bad against armor.
The only way this thing is going to hurt anybody asside from the explosion is, that the person would be covered in monowire. So if he or she moves....
That would have been reasonable and it would have been a interesting weapon this way.
@Glyph

tasteless crap like killing Holocaust victim ghosts to get nazi artifacts

I disagree. It is crap in any possible way. Not just taste. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But I guess thats the fascination of fiction writers with nazis...

[James McMurray]

@James McMurray

This is quite funny, because you said, that your team surrendered, because of slow. So after your experience slow made the mage invincible.

Apparently you didn't read all of my posts or you need to look up the word "invincible" in a dictionary. That mage is now dead, despite having been protected by Slow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Irion]

Apparently you didn't read all of my posts or you need to look up the word "invincible" in a dictionary. That mage is now dead, despite having been protected by Slow. rotfl.gif

Yes. As a matter of fact, because you choose to ignore the rules. A character with slow can't be run over because the car would crash in the slow field.

[James McMurray]

The presence of the moving car destroys the Slow, as per the rules of the Slow spell. Seriously, dude. What rules are being ignored and why does a trash truck crash because it bumped into a spell that it instantly annihilated? Page references would be great.

[Irion]

@James McMurray
Simple. First the engine block(or to be precise the front of it) enters the field and his movement is slowed. The rest of the car is slowed because of the reaction force. Since the car is outside the field the kinetic energie is not absorbed. Instead it is transformed in heat and transformation energie ripping the car appart.
(Like you see it in car accident going 50 mph against a wall.)
The spell fizzels the moment most of the car has entered the area (or most of the car). But at this point the car has lost most of its kinetic energy.
So the truck would probably come to a hold in front of the mage (or to be precise whats left of the truck). (If the area has a radius of 3 m or something like that)
Then the spell would have been deactivated, and the mage could have a non slow motion spit at the remains and walk away.

The spell is broken, because it is slowing everything to a said speed. No matter what forces are behind it. No matter how fast it went before.
This is the problem. You can shoot planes down with it, crash cars, protect you from bullets, restrain people and it is one of the best rescue yourself spells (if fall of a plane, I want to jump out of a car) etc. etc.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, lord. Stop trying to wedge physics into this, it's always a bad idea.

[Fatum]

Can't see that, sorry.

That's cause it was in his forum(?) post, where someone suggested using the spell for that, and the author not only agreed enthusiastically, but said he'd award a player for such inventiveness.

@James McMurray
Simple. First the engine block(or to be precise the front of it) enters the field and his movement is slowed.

Zeno, go away.

[Irion]

@Fatum

Zeno, go away.

Well, yes you could use a Zeno paradox on my example, but you really do not want to to this in intergral form, do you?

[Yerameyahu]

Are we going on the assumption that the author knows how the spell should work? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Medicineman]

Are we going on the assumption that the author knows how the spell should work? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

from what I read here his RAI was something completely different than his RAW

with 2 different Dances
Medicineman

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

One thing no one mentioned.
1- See the group of trolls running towards you after you cast slow. Cast slow on them. Now they won't be able to reach you this turn, no matter how many IP's they have. Assuming you are a magician with at least 2 IP's, cast something to disable them.
2- Next turn, they are moving out of the slow spell area. Cast another one. Cast something else to disable them.
3- If they are still going after you, go back to '2', else stop.

Now, if for some reason you don't have 2 IP's, just split your dice pool and cast slow AND something else.

Slow is broken, there is no argument for it. Because in the end, you must use physics to deal with it and it will give a headache, because yes, sending a truck over the magician could solve it, but the truck isn't a point in space worth of 1ton of mass. It has length, and the mass is distributed all over.