Is War! Really that Bad?, Fatum: I moved it here. Let's continue. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"It's not the bullet with your name that matters, it's the one addressed 'To Whom It May Concern'."

"A stray bullet that hits you is just as deadly as an aimed bullet that hits you."

"Friendly fire isn't."

That last one is particularly True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Fatum]

To be completely fair, that would have been an extremely difficult book to write and I think it's better to leave that kind of thing up to the player's imagination to come up with. How would YOU best use a tac-net in battle? How would YOU deploy drones? I feel like a single book laying out how Shadowrun warfare would be fought is too restrictive of the players. One strong part of Shadowrun is that it's a very adaptable and customizable setting that can fit virtually any player in SOMEWHERE and when you start laying out specific parts of the game as more rigid, you lose a little bit of that. I do think Bogata was focused on a bit much, but it seems to me that that was more an effort to show what one part of a war or one kind of a war would be like.

Keep in mind, warfare is not static in general and even less so in Shadowrun so sometimes you might have a fight that looks like something out of Star Trek and other times it might be a battlefield we would find more familiar and trying to lay out all that in one book and still have it be accessible is a monumental task.

The way wars were fought during the WWI, the WWII, Vietnam or, say, current Afghanistan campaign are all different, but they are based on the technologies used. It would kill noone to write a short overview of how rigging, drones, tacnets or nanites affected the tactics and strategy. That doesn't mean that every army uses them the same way, just like the modern-day armies do not use the modern-day weapons exactly the same way.

While I dont think War! was a glittering gem in the SR4 crown, I dont feel it was atrociously bad. There have definitely been worse, the most recent Way of the Adept is an excellent example.

TWotA is a book full of solid crunch, unlike War!, where most new items make you say wtf.

They're all over dumpshock.
GA with 30 dice in longarms (sniper) and 6 edge with a barret and APDS.
Anybody with one or more ITS Gonryu on full burst
A strong sammy with the Thunderstruck gauss.
If there isn't a mage build that can do this, people should stop giving them so much credit.

Against some 30 armor 30 dice are not really enough. And burst DV modifiers do not count when calculating armor penetration, too.
And even if you hit, you're still not punching through all of its health at once. Or, if you can back your words up with calculations, please show me a 400BP sammy build that downs a Stonewall in a single IP on average rolls.

[Method]

2. War could have been better organized, play-tested and maps wouldn't have hurt.

I've been mostly quiet in these debates, but as one of the few that playtested War! I have to say that I agree.

First, the playtesting pool seems to be rapidly deminishing, which is something that needs to be addressed, IMHO. More eyes on the material means more issues caught and corrected. Playtesting takes time and energy, and frankly every group has areas they don't spend that much time on. You assume that if your group doesn't use that much spellcasting (for example), some other playtest group will catch things like the Slow spell (my group spent way more time scratching our heads about Designate, which still doesn't make much sense).

I think some of those that complain most loudly about recent products should be emailing Jason and asking to playtest, because it seem to me like help is badly needed. Ditto for proofreading. Of course given the events surrounding the Late Unpleasantness (namely leaks of confidential materal) I can see why Jason might be hesitant to send playtest drafts out to a larger playtest pool.

But I think some tunes would change if people realized that: A.) its hard to evaluate rules when you have very little (if any) context, and B.) you can suggest fixes, but that doesn't mean they will listen. There are times when I've seen my group's feedback incorporated into the final print almost word-for-word (for which many would be grateful... trust me). Other times you give feedback about a potential problem and the rule makes it to print unchanged. Thats just the way it goes.

[Fatum]

I think some of those that complain most loudly about recent products should be emailing Jason and asking to playtest, because it seem to me like help is badly needed. Ditto for proofreading. Of course given the events surrounding the Late Unpleasantness (namely leaks of confidential materal) I can see why Jason might be hesitant to send playtest drafts out to a larger playtest pool.

I am sorry, I read that as "I think some of those that complain most loudly about the quality of the product they're paying their money for should be emailing Jason and asking for permission to try and do CGL's work for it for free".

But I think some tunes would change if people realized that: A.) its hard to evaluate rules when you have very little (if any) context, and B.) you can suggest fixes, but that doesn't mean they will listen. There are times when I've seen my group's feedback incorporated into the final print almost word-for-word (for which many would be grateful... trust me). Other times you give feedback about a potential problem and the rule makes it to print unchanged. Thats just the way it goes.

Game theory exists. (Btw, basic proofreading, through which War! obviously was never put, exists, too). It's kinda expected that a company which makes games is capable of competent ruleset analysis, if it wants to produce viable rulesets and stay on the market. Playtesting is in no way replacement for adequate rules writing, it's just making sure nothing's off in the results.

I understand, naturally, that writing a book is a huge collective undertaking, and War! wasn't written in the best of times; and I appreciate CGL's efforts to make their new releases better (where present). But should that really be an excuse for such a failure?

[Method]

I am sorry, I read that as "I think some of those that complain most loudly about the quality of the product they're paying their money for should be emailing Jason and asking for permission to try and do CGL's work for it for free".

If you don't like the products, you have multiple options: you can stop buying them, you can collaborate to write your own version (see alt.War! project), you can complain loudly on internet forums, you can drink yourself into a stupor. You can do anything you want. I was mearly presenting another option: I (speaking only as an individual with no official ties to CGL) think SR could use more playtesters. I think SR would benefit if some of the people who have these issues provided their feedback to the company *in a constructive way* and *before the books come out*. I appologize if that makes you mad.

Game theory exists. (Btw, basic proofreading, through which War! obviously was never put, exists, too). It's kinda expected that a company which makes games is capable of competent ruleset analysis, if it wants to produce viable rulesets and stay on the market. Playtesting is in no way replacement for adequate rules writing, it's just making sure nothing's off in the results.

100% agree. See my comments above.

I understand, naturally, that writing a book is a huge collective undertaking, and War! wasn't written in the best of times; and I appreciate CGL's efforts to make their new releases better (where present). But should that really be an excuse for such a failure?

Its interesting that you interpreted what I wrote as an attempt to make excuses. I was simply agreeing with a point Prime Mover made: namely playtesting could be better. I say this as an active playtester and you twist that into a defense of an entire process, which has problems that extend far beyond anything that playtesters have any influence over.

The irony here is that we probably agree on multiple levels, but you're just reacting out your frastrations with CGL and/or War! Ah well. Whatever.

[Irion]

Well, a problem with shadowrun is the way it is build up.
There is the core book with rules on every subject.
There is augmentation with additional rules on cyberware and medicine.
There is streetmagic with additional rules on magic, astral plane and spirits and stuff like that.
There is get arsenal with additional rules for combat, weapons, vehicles and drones.
There is Unwired with rules on hacking and technomancers.
There is emergance with some rules on technomancers.
There is runners companion with rules on Spirit, AIs, Vampires, livestyle and a lot of additional qualities.
etc. etc
In every book there are also some parts having effects on other books. (Tecnet etc.)
If you go through the manegement problems, it is quite obvious that with this kind of structure the rules will run into problems.
To many additions to consider every time.

Playtesting is in no way able to really prevent that. If you get lucky and got yourself a hell of playtest with photographic memory who is also very organized and knows all the rules it helps.
(Because he is doing your work)
The other way is to make a hell of a core book, which offers a solid ground for any kind of extension (or plan every extension up in front).
All the books are full of little glitches caused by that:
Streetmagic: Latent awakening lets you get around paying Karma for the essence/Magic loss.
Runners Companion: Vampires follow different essence rules, getting also around the essence/Magic loss problem. (Or you might look at the free spirits and the Pact selection)
Unwired: Writing your own programms is much too powerfull if you use it with the rules of augmentation etc. (Considering the fact how easy it is to get raiting 7 or higher while programms are normally restricted to 6)

And war! is just running in the problem, that there are only a few stats for weapons:
Damage, range, armor penetration, fire mode, magazine, concealability.
(Thats fine for 30-40 different weapons but wit more you start to repeat yourself)

[James McMurray]

I personally don't see the problem with the Slow spell. It's not like its hard to negate it. An enemy mage used it last night and got 4 hits (800kg). The only PCs in the area were an ork street sam and an ork mage. The NPCs (that were moving) were a materialized toxic fire spirit and a child (who also happened to be a toxic magician). Just those 4 alone (including gear) were around 400kg. There was easily enough movable terrain around that the street sam could have started a chain reaction that would have broken the spell. He didn't think to, and instead all but gave up when his bullets were useless, but that's not the fault of the spell it was a lack of understanding on the player's part about how the spell worked (which made sense as he wasn't the guy with magical knowledge). Instead the rigger rolled a stolen trash truck into the room, killing the spell, spirit, and kid practically simultaneously).

Is it powerful? Sure. Is it broken? Nah, mundanes can end its effects way too easily and it causes a major restriction on your own team's tactics.

I did make one minor change to: speed is 1m per pass instead of 1m per second, since it's easier to track when your combat is bouncing between 4 and 5 passes.

[Fatum]

If you don't like the products, you have multiple options: you can stop buying them, you can collaborate to write your own version (see alt.War! project), you can complain loudly on internet forums, you can drink yourself into a stupor. You can do anything you want. I was mearly presenting another option: I (speaking only as an individual with no official ties to CGL) think SR could use more playtesters. I think SR would benefit if some of the people who have these issues provided their feedback to the company *in a constructive way* and *before the books come out*. I appologize if that makes you mad.

Right, if I don't like the steak I payed for, I can go work as a kitchen boy for free (and offer the chef advice on the amount of salt needed, nothing else, and even that only deliberatively) until the chef learns to make better steaks. Gg. Shadowrun doesn't appear to be lacking in kitchen boys to offer advice, it appears to lack a professional chef - and without one, no amount of advice is fixing the problems.
Also, it's pretty neat how you can read my emotional state over standard TCP/IP; could you please teach me this trick, as well? :ь

I was simply agreeing with a point Prime Mover made: namely playtesting could be better. I say this as an active playtester and you twist that into a defense of an entire process, which has problems that extend far beyond anything that playtesters have any influence over.

Again, there's no arguing playtesting could be better. But there's a question whether volunteering to playtest for CGL would make things better.

The irony here is that we probably agree on multiple levels, but you're just reacting out your frastrations with CGL and/or War! Ah well. Whatever.

Well, the topic here is "Is War! Really that Bad?" You pointed out the problems in a particular area, I just noted that there's no fixing that particular area alone without changing the way things are done to begin with.
So yeah, I pretty much am. Sorry if that bothered you; but frankly, there was no way for this topic not to end in "War! drama, take n+1" from the very beginning. :ь

[Fatum]

And war! is just running in the problem, that there are only a few stats for weapons:
Damage, range, armor penetration, fire mode, magazine, concealability.
(Thats fine for 30-40 different weapons but wit more you start to repeat yourself)

Uh, War!'s problems weren't really with firearm stats...
Sure, if you want to extend such a homogeneous system as Shadowrun, you have a lot of cross-referencing to do. Luckily, SR4 doesn't have all that many books for that to become an impossible task - as you can see, the fan base is fully capable of pointing out the errors with that...

I personally don't see the problem with the Slow spell. It's not like its hard to negate it. An enemy mage used it last night and got 4 hits (800kg). The only PCs in the area were an ork street sam and an ork mage. The NPCs (that were moving) were a materialized toxic fire spirit and a child (who also happened to be a toxic magician). Just those 4 alone (including gear) were around 400kg. There was easily enough movable terrain around that the street sam could have started a chain reaction that would have broken the spell. He didn't think to, and instead all but gave up when his bullets were useless, but that's not the fault of the spell it was a lack of understanding on the player's part about how the spell worked (which made sense as he wasn't the guy with magical knowledge). Instead the rigger rolled a stolen trash truck into the room, killing the spell, spirit, and kid practically simultaneously).

Is it powerful? Sure. Is it broken? Nah, mundanes can end its effects way too easily and it causes a major restriction on your own team's tactics.

I did make one minor change to: speed is 1m per pass instead of 1m per second, since it's easier to track when your combat is bouncing between 4 and 5 passes.

Ah, I see you don't understand the problems with the spell.
Cast the spell on yourself. What's a bullet's mass? Some nine grams. Artillery shells' have masses in kilograms, actually, ones to dozens of them.
Enjoy being invincible while still being able to cast spells.

And that's even without considerations for molecular thermal movement speeds. If I recall, taking those into account rapidly drops the temperature in the spell's target area to around the absolute zero.

[James McMurray]

Ah, I see you don't understand the problems with the spell.
Cast the spell on yourself. How much does a bullet weigh? Some nine grams. Artillery shells weigh in kilograms, actually, ones to dozens of them.
Enjoy being invincible while still being able to cast spells.

If your opponent has no magical support and no way to move enough weight (or no reason to know they should) then you don't need Slow to crush them with a mage. A F10 stun spell will work just fine.

And that's even without considerations for molecular thermal movement speeds. If I recall, taking those into account rapidly drops the temperature in the spell's target area to around the absolute zero.

Ah, I see. I guess that's where we differ. I tend to assume that spells do what they're meant to do and ignore any interactions with physics that would make them more or less powerful than written. "A wizard did it" and all that. If I had to take into the account particle physics and molecular forces every time someone cast a spell I'd just ban magic altogether and save myself a massive headache.

[Irion]

Also very nice is the Technomancer Radar. I guess it meant device rating not signal raiting.

@James McMurray

If your opponent has no magical support and no way to move enough weight (or no reason to know they should) then you don't need Slow to crush them with a mage. A F10 stun spell will work just fine.

True if you cast this spell with a force of 6 or higher. But what if you just cast it with a force of 4 and you are withholding 3 dices to reduce the area of effect?
Now you stand in the middle of a "move with only one m/s field" Try to move 600 kg through that.

[Fatum]

If your opponent has no magical support and no way to move enough weight (or no reason to know they should) then you don't need Slow to crush them with a mage. A F10 stun spell will work just fine.

If your opponent has counterspelling support and is a capable sammie/adept/rigger/all of the above, there isn't much he can do against you when you're under Slow. Even if you're a low-level magician only capable of rolling one hit on the test. This makes the spell broken.

Ah, I see. I guess that's where we differ. I tend to assume that spells do what they're meant to do and ignore any interactions with physics that would make them more or less powerful than written. "A wizard did it" and all that. If I had to take into the account particle physics and molecular forces every time someone cast a spell I'd just ban magic altogether and save myself a massive headache.

The spell is meant to do the following:

This spell saps the kinetic energy of moving objects in its area of effect. Movement in the area is limited to one meter per second

Aren't molecules moving? Aren't they objects?
Or are you guessing what the spells should do by RAI, and run with that guess? That's mighty fine, but the RAW isn't any better for it.

[Demonseed Elite]

Ah, I see. I guess that's where we differ. I tend to assume that spells do what they're meant to do and ignore any interactions with physics that would make them more or less powerful than written. "A wizard did it" and all that. If I had to take into the account particle physics and molecular forces every time someone cast a spell I'd just ban magic altogether and save myself a massive headache.

Shadowrun players are a special type of gamer. You pretty much can't be too careful when writing up any sort of rules, because if you miss a niggling detail, they will break the game with it. It is pretty exhausting to write rules in SR for that reason, a lesson I learned when I wrote the ward rules in Street Magic. I spent months here and elsewhere trying to better explain my intentions and clarify the language to close loopholes. Exhausting, I tell ya!

[James McMurray]

Also very nice is the Technomancer Radar. I guess it meant device rating not signal raiting.

@James McMurray

True if you cast this spell with a force of 6 or higher. But what if you just cast it with a force of 4 and you are withholding 3 dices to reduce the area of effect?
Now you stand in the middle of a "move with only one m/s field" Try to move 600 kg through that.

The mage himself (plus gear) is probably 150kg. Me and my two buddies are another 450. We walk up next to you (easily inside your 1m radius). One of us shoves you. There you go, problem solved. Or there's two of us but we're trolls.

Better yet I roll over you with a car. Now now only is your spell squashed, but so are you.

If your opponent has counterspelling support and is a capable sammie/adept/rigger/all of the above, there isn't much he can do against you when you're under Slow. Even if you're a low-level magician only capable of rolling one hit on the test. This makes the spell broken.

I refer you to my original post. If your opponent can't defeat your magic, you don't need Slow to defeat him.

The spell is meant to do the following:
Aren't molecules moving? Aren't they objects?
Or are you guessing what the spells should do by RAI, and run with that guess? That's mighty fine, but the RAW isn't any better for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. Mixing physics and magic is a bad idea IMO. YMMV

[Fatum]

Shadowrun players are a special type of gamer. You pretty much can't be too careful when writing up any sort of rules, because if you miss a niggling detail, they will break the game with it. It is pretty exhausting to write rules in SR for that reason, a lesson I learned when I wrote the ward rules in Street Magic. I spent months here and elsewhere trying to better explain my intentions and clarify the language to close loopholes. Exhausting, I tell ya!

Pah, as if gamers in any other systems are any better.
The only thing stopping players from building Pun-Puns every time is GM's stick, nothing more.

[Fatum]

The mage himself (plus gear) is probably 150kg. Me and my two buddies are another 450. We walk up next to you (easily inside your 1m radius). One of us shoves you. There you go, problem solved. Or there's two of us but we're trolls.
Better yet I roll over you with a car. Now now only is your spell squashed, but so are you.

An average human male is around 70 kg, with carrying capacity of around 30 kg. Where are you getting those 150?
Ah, actually, it doesn't matter, cause by the time you walk up/drive up, you're not just dead, you're dead ten times - because the chances were even when you could've shot the mage.

I refer you to my original post. If your opponent can't defeat your magic, you don't need Slow to defeat him.

If you pay close attention to my previous posts (just very, very close) you'll notice that I describe a way for a low-skilled mage to be more effective than a high-skilled mage without putting any effort into it.
Finally, let me remind you that low-Magic mages' spells can be resisted with attributes alone; Slow doesn't give that chance, and gives any mage an unbeatable edge against any non-mage opposition (which may mean much for street-level games).

[Irion]

Better yet I roll over you with a car. Now now only is your spell squashed, but so are you.

Yeah. Because I will be standing there, waiting to be run over.

Physical barrier in front of me. Boom goes your car.

The mage himself (plus gear) is probably 150kg. Me and my two buddies are another 450. We walk up next to you (easily inside your 1m radius). One of us shoves you. There you go, problem solved. Or there's two of us but we're trolls.

So yeah. I hit any of you with the good old stunbolt and away you stay.

It is not a "I am invinsible spell" yes, thats true. But it protects you from a great amount of dangers.

So in the end you need 2 Trolls to even stand a chance to take me down. (Or a car)
And even considering this, you will probably fail.

[James McMurray]

An average human male is around 70 kg, with carrying capacity of around 30 kg. Where are you getting those 150?
Ah, actually, it doesn't matter, cause by the time you walk up/drive up, you're not just dead, you're dead ten times - because the chances were even when you could've shot the mage.

If you pay close attention to my previous posts (just very, very close) you'll notice that I describe a way for a low-skilled mage to be more effective than a high-skilled mage without putting any effort into it.
Finally, let me remind you that low-Magic mages' spells can be resisted with attributes alone; Slow doesn't give that chance, and gives any mage an unbeatable edge against any non-mage opposition (which may mean much for street-level games).

Sorry, I was looking at ork weights, because that's what was in the team when Slow appeared in our game. If everyone is human and there's no terrain aroundm, it'll definitely be harder. I'm not saying it's impossible to set up a scenario where the other side is screwed, I'm saying tat doesn't matter. Replace one human runner with a troll in heavy armor and the weights balance back out.

Why did you even buy War! for your street level game? Seriously, yeah, you're right. The stuff in War! is inappropriate for street level games. I don't think anyone's denying that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah. Because I will be standing there, waiting to be run over.

How are you moving away? You slowed yourself, remember?

Physical barrier in front of me. Boom goes your car.

How many prep spells does your mage have up? Of course you're going to annihilate the opposition if you've got every trick you need in place before the fight starts.

So yeah. I hit any of you with the good old stunbolt and away you stay.

How does slow change that? Stun Bolt is going to annihilate someone regardless of what other spells you have going, and will actually be better if you're not sustaining Slow.

It is not a "I am invinsible spell" yes, thats true. But it protects you from a great amount of dangers.

So in the end you need 2 Trolls to even stand a chance to take me down. (Or a car)
And even considering this, you will probably fail.

You may want to grab a calculator. 600kg is not hard to get together unless you're fighting in a featureless plain.

I'm not saying Slow is weak. I'm saying it's highly situational. It's definitely possible to arrange scenarios where someone is unavoidably dead because you have Slow. It's also possible to arrange scenarios where someone is unavoidably dead because you have Stun/Mana Bolt. It's the GM's job to ensure that those situations don't happen to the PCs without a long stream of major fuck ups happening first. It's also his job to make sure those situations don't take out important NPCs without a long stream of excellent running by the team.

If Slow ensures anyone's death it's because the GM wanted it that way. If Slow kills someone and it wasn't assured, it's because they couldn't figure out a way around it. Neither of those is a problem with Slow that can't happen with tons of other spells or gear.

[KarmaInferno]

Shadowrun players are a special type of gamer. You pretty much can't be too careful when writing up any sort of rules, because if you miss a niggling detail, they will break the game with it. It is pretty exhausting to write rules in SR for that reason, a lesson I learned when I wrote the ward rules in Street Magic. I spent months here and elsewhere trying to better explain my intentions and clarify the language to close loopholes. Exhausting, I tell ya!

It's a bit like programming.

You get one subroutine wrong, out of millions, and the whole program can crash.

Perhaps not so coincidentally, one of the first things I do when learning a new RPG system is try to create a spreadsheet character generator for it. Even if I never finish it, this lets me learn the ins and outs of the rules very well, and if there's a mechanically broken rule it's obvious pretty damn fast.

Granted, even if there's nothing mechanically wrong with a rules set, it can still be broken, but the spreadsheet thing catches a lot of problems.


-k

[Fatum]

Sorry, I was looking at ork weights, because that's what was in the team when Slow appeared in our game. If everyone is human and there's no terrain aroundm, it'll definitely be harder. I'm not saying it's impossible to set up a scenario where the other side is screwed, I'm saying tat doesn't matter. Replace one human runner with a troll in heavy armor and the weights balance back out.

Trolls in heavy armor shoot the same bullets as everyone else. Actually, only three hits on a test is enough to protect you from trolls, too - even in melee.

Why did you even buy War! for your street level game? Seriously, yeah, you're right. The stuff in War! is inappropriate for street level games. I don't think anyone's denying that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Slow is just a spell like any other. It's not like you need to go through a boot camp to learn it.

How are you moving away? You slowed yourself, remember?

You're not moving away. You're killing the other guys, because you can get them at range and they can't (and there's a good chance they're not getting you in melee, too). It's that simple.

How does slow change that? Stun Bolt is going to annihilate someone regardless of what other spells you have going, and will actually be better if you're not sustaining Slow.

Slow makes you almost invincible.

You may want to grab a calculator. 600kg is not hard to get together unless you're fighting in a featureless plain.

Oh, do tell. Say, you're fighting is a street. What are you, dropping chunks of buildings on the mage? Are you sure you have weapons capable of that, and that you're capable of hitting him with the debris?
Or are you throwing stuff at him? 600 kg is far too much to throw in a moment's notice, before you eat a stunbolt.

Slow is not in any way situational. It works every time, everywhere, under any circumstances, and it provides the benefits incomparable to the spells of similar Power. That is precisely what is wrong about it.
Okay, imagine there's an implant that gives you two points of Agility, and costs Rating x0.2 in Essence and Rating x4,000¥ in nuyen.

You can argue that Agility is highly situational. It's definitely possible to arrange scenarios where someone is unavoidably dead because you have high Agility. It's the GM's job to ensure that those situations don't happen to the PCs without a long stream of major fuck ups happening first. It's also his job to make sure those situations don't take out important NPCs without a long stream of excellent running by the team. If high Agility ensures anyone's death it's because the GM wanted it that way. If high Agility kills someone and it wasn't assured, it's because they couldn't figure out a way around it. Neither of those is a problem with high Agility that can't happen with tons of other spells or gear.

But it's still an implant that's exactly four times as good as Muscle Toner. It's game-breaking and makes for a bad addition to the options your players get.

Same goes for Slow, I'm surprised it's not obvious, especially after me pointing it out thrice.

[KarmaInferno]

Slow is pretty much an impenetrable bullet shield even if cast at low Force. Automatically, with no form of threshold or resistance check allowed to beat it.

No other anti-bullet magic comes even close. And most other options require high Force to be really effective.

If it had no effect on ballistic weapons, or at least allowed opposed tests or thresholds to beat it, it would be no problem.

As written, I could throw it up at Force 1 and ignore gunfire as long as I sustained it.

Additionally, it kinda skirts the old idea that magic can't affect time/space.



-k

[Fatum]

Slow is pretty much an impenetrable bullet shield even if cast at low Force. Automatically, with no form of threshold or resistance check allowed to beat it.

No other anti-bullet magic comes even close. And most other options require high Force to be really effective.

If it had no effect on ballistic weapons, or at least allowed opposed tests or thresholds to beat it, it would be no problem.

As written, I could throw it up at Force 1 and ignore gunfire as long as I sustained it.

Ah, but you see, it doesn't matter cause a tank can still squish you.

Additionally, it kinda skirts the old idea that magic can't affect time/space.

Well, it doesn't slow down time, it just slows down the objects' movement (which is about as skirting that line as Levitate, don't you think?).

[Stahlseele]

Yes, a Tank can squash the mage . .
But if you need a TANK TO KILL A MAGE . . something is wrong . .
An technically, as written, Slow is Entropy in it's purest Form as a Spell . .

@Topic:
No, War! is not that bad.
It's worse actually.
And why the hell would anybody say that Way of the Adepts was WORSE than War!?

Way was written by a single person, as far as i can tell.
Way was written to be exactly what it is right now and does not try to hide it either.
Way was meant to be something to give a bit more to adepts, nothing more, nothing less.

War! from the Title should let us know who in the 6th world is waging war against whom and why and HOW.
Not tell us about one single war. Not tell us there is other places where there is war going on.
Not tell us about places where war has been and crimes against humanity have happened.

[Nevermind]

Sorry, I was looking at ork weights, because that's what was in the team when Slow appeared in our game. If everyone is human and there's no terrain aroundm, it'll definitely be harder. I'm not saying it's impossible to set up a scenario where the other side is screwed, I'm saying tat doesn't matter. Replace one human runner with a troll in heavy armor and the weights balance back out.

Even with your BMI 78 Ork, your whole Team could be caught in this spell without breaking the 600 KG.
If not you should check their weight limits. Even the ork hast strenght 3 only:)
The main problem with this spell is, you have only 2 solutions to break this spell,
1. Another mage, doing counterspelling
2. Breaking the weight limit, which can be easy if u have a car at hand, or quite difficult.

A levitating mage some meters in the air with this spell aktive around him, can draw fire from an small Army without harm.

How many prep spells does your mage have up? Of course you're going to annihilate the opposition if you've got every trick you need in place before the fight starts.

Actually, most situations dont start with a car within ramming distance from the enemy mage, from my experience. So maybe the mage is casing it when he sees the car rolling in his direction, or is it a phantom car appearing directly in front of him?

How does slow change that? Stun Bolt is going to annihilate someone regardless of what other spells you have going, and will actually be better if you're not sustaining Slow.

Slow give u the time to throw some Stun Bolts, without getting shot?
From my experience, most fights start at a distance for shooting not for close combat, but may be different in your game.

You may want to grab a calculator. 600kg is not hard to get together unless you're fighting in a featureless plain.

My math tells me that 600kg is a lot if you arent a bunch of obese runners, or got some trolls at hand.

I'm not saying Slow is weak. I'm saying it's highly situational. It's definitely possible to arrange scenarios where someone is unavoidably dead because you have Slow. It's also possible to arrange scenarios where someone is unavoidably dead because you have Stun/Mana Bolt. It's the GM's job to ensure that those situations don't happen to the PCs without a long stream of major fuck ups happening first. It's also his job to make sure those situations don't take out important NPCs without a long stream of excellent running by the team.

Yes its highly situational, there we can agree. But from my experience, there are a lot of situations where slow IS a gamebreaker. Its immunity to Firearms and more. There is afaik no defensive spell with that kind of power.

If Slow ensures anyone's death it's because the GM wanted it that way. If Slow kills someone and it wasn't assured, it's because they couldn't figure out a way around it. Neither of those is a problem with Slow that can't happen with tons of other spells or gear.

So your solution is, forget about balancing at design, the GM will save the day anyway, or he is a bad GM?

[Method]

Also, it's pretty neat how you can read my emotional state over standard TCP/IP; could you please teach me this trick, as well? :ь

Well basically you look at the top of the post where the poster has included an angry face icon as if to indicate they are angry...