Is War! Really that Bad?, Fatum: I moved it here. Let's continue. Options

[KarmaInferno]

Ah, but you see, it doesn't matter cause a tank can still squish you.

That is like saying X isn't broken cos I can still kill it with a nuclear bomb.

ANYTHING that can just stop an attack cold, with no resistance or threshold allowed to defeat it, it is inherently broken.

Other bullet shields either modify the resistance test, or provide some numerical threshold that an attack must defeat to penetrate, and generally the bigger the attack the higher the rating or force of shield is needed to protect against it.

Even an armored bunker allows for some test to penetrate. Slow does not.

Slow just completely bypasses Shadowrun attack/defense mechanics. It does not fit. It is like something written for some other game system.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

That, and the snarky/angry tone *everywhere* in the thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So. I'm glad we answered this question for longbowrocks. It's his job to have every old debate replayed, because he wasn't here the first (million) times. It's good to periodically recheck our settled conventional wisdom… and to be shown that we were indeed right the last time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[jizo]

would you guys rule that it affected lasers, or HE grenades, or flamethrowers, or tear gas, or any other form of smoke if it did, as explosions generate large amounts of heat, and pressure, neither of which would necessarily be stopped, so a HE missile or grenade would likely be able to take out the hapless mage who cannot dodge because he cannot move quickly to the side. Chemicals don't have to be moving at any quick rate of speed to be effective, bullets may be utterly stopped but that just leaves alternate weapons, even if a motorcycle/car isn't available.

[Nevermind]

would you guys rule that it affected lasers, or HE grenades, or flamethrowers, or tear gas, or any other form of smoke if it did, as explosions generate large amounts of heat, and pressure, neither of which would necessarily be stopped, so a HE missile or grenade would likely be able to take out the hapless mage who cannot dodge because he cannot move quickly to the side. Chemicals don't have to be moving at any quick rate of speed to be effective, bullets may be utterly stopped but that just leaves alternate weapons, even if a motorcycle/car isn't available.

The Spelll also covers explosions iirc.

So Lasers would be an option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

To repeat words from above, 'aren't photons objects?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

… No. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Magic is magic, and bad spell ideas are bad spell ideas.

[James McMurray]

Trolls in heavy armor shoot the same bullets as everyone else. Actually, only three hits on a test is enough to protect you from trolls, too - even in melee.

I'm talking about the Troll himself, and his weight.

Slow is just a spell like any other. It's not like you need to go through a boot camp to learn it.

If the GM says "we're having a street level campaign" and then says "sure, grab stuff from War!" there'sa disconnect.

You're not moving away. You're killing the other guys, because you can get them at range and they can't (and there's a good chance they're not getting you in melee, too). It's that simple.

Can't argue with that logic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Oh wait, sure I can. They don't have to get you in melee, they just have to move stuff within the radius of your spell. If you make it incredibly tight then yes, they will get you in melee. If you make it really wide then they'll have more nearby terrain to use.

Slow makes you almost invincible.

LOL. Tell that to the dead mage from last night. She was almost invincible until the team took a moment to think and work together, then she died.

Oh, do tell. Say, you're fighting is a street. What are you, dropping chunks of buildings on the mage? Are you sure you have weapons capable of that, and that you're capable of hitting him with the debris?
Or are you throwing stuff at him? 600 kg is far too much to throw in a moment's notice, before you eat a stunbolt.

Why are we fighting in the street? Why didn't I bring magical backup or friends?

In any case, if I can't kill him, I run. If I can't run, the GM wanted me dead anyway and no amount of bitching about Slow is going to stop it from happening.

[James McMurray]

Huh, never knew there was a limit to the number of quote blocks in one post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As written, I could throw it up at Force 1 and ignore gunfire as long as I sustained it.

Until a high body ork in heavy armor with a little bit of gear walks up to you and it stops working.

Ah, but you see, it doesn't matter cause a tank can still squish you.

Yes, a Tank can squash the mage . .
But if you need a TANK TO KILL A MAGE . . something is wrong . .

A tank is waaay into the realm of overkill for combating Slow. A pickup truck (Accel 15/30, Body 14) will hit the mage for 28P (half impact).

Even with your BMI 78 Ork, your whole Team could be caught in this spell without breaking the 600 KG.

I was going by the SR4A weight table. An average ork (Body 6, Strength 5) weighs 128kg. A team of them will easily break 600kg in their underoos.

1. Another mage, doing counterspelling
2. Breaking the weight limit, which can be easy if u have a car at hand, or quite difficult.

It only takes a car if you're in a place with no usable terrain. If that's the case then either the team planned very well or the GM planned poorly.

[James McMurray]

A levitating mage some meters in the air with this spell aktive around him, can draw fire from an small Army without harm.

How does an invincible target draw fire? What sort of army continuously fires at one guy that they can't possibly hurt and ignores all other foes? And what sort of army doesn't have magical backup?

Actually, most situations dont start with a car within ramming distance from the enemy mage, from my experience. So maybe the mage is casing it when he sees the car rolling in his direction, or is it a phantom car appearing directly in front of him?

I have no idea, we're talking about a nebulous situation. Again, if the spell is unstoppable in the situation then either the GM screwed up or the players rocked out in their planning.

Slow give u the time to throw some Stun Bolts, without getting shot?

If your Stun Bolt (or better, Ball) kills me, then it doesn't matter if you know Slow or not. The turn you cast Slow you could have instead cast Stun Bolt and ended the fight.

From my experience, most fights start at a distance for shooting not for close combat, but may be different in your game.

It depends completely on who they're fighting, why they're fighting, and where the fight happens.

My math tells me that 600kg is a lot if you arent a bunch of obese runners, or got some trolls at hand.

Then your math is wrong or you aren't using the suggested weights (or maybe you're assuming nothing but humans in light armor with no riggers).

So your solution is, forget about balancing at design, the GM will save the day anyway, or he is a bad GM?

Of course not, but I'm also aware that there's no such thing as perfection, especially amongst game designers. Slow is far from the most powerful thing in the game, and it's far from the weakest. There are practically infinite situations in the game and no way for the designers and playtesters to think of them all. It falls on the group playing the game to decide what is to much.

Heck, the Ares Predator is broken if you given them to 12 guys and have them all shoot the same person in the same pass. Eventually you hit a point where every guy is doing 6+ unavoidable damage twice. Should we toss out the weapon, rewrite the combat rules, or just not design scenarios where that happens? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

would you guys rule that it affected lasers, or HE grenades, or flamethrowers, or tear gas, or any other form of smoke if it did, as explosions generate large amounts of heat, and pressure, neither of which would necessarily be stopped, so a HE missile or grenade would likely be able to take out the hapless mage who cannot dodge because he cannot move quickly to the side. Chemicals don't have to be moving at any quick rate of speed to be effective, bullets may be utterly stopped but that just leaves alternate weapons, even if a motorcycle/car isn't available.

I would definitely have it not affect energy weapons. Actually, that's exactly what was making the mage so scary in the encounter until she started rolling high on her stun balls: her force 8 toxic nuclear spirit with radiation energy attacks (though he never actually hit despite having 21 attack dice. If the team members that were facing her had owned a laser she'd have been toast.

I would have it affect tear gas, smoke, and other particulate clouds.

[KarmaInferno]

Of course not, but I'm also aware that there's no such thing as perfection, especially amongst game designers. Slow is far from the most powerful thing in the game, and it's far from the weakest. There are practically infinite situations in the game and no way for the designers and playtesters to think of them all. It falls on the group playing the game to decide what is to much.

If several dozen folks across Dumpshock, the official boards, and RPGnet within minutes of the PDF being available were able to spot and point out this problem spell, there's no good reason an editor at least should not have at least had questions about it. Then again, a lot of folks have questioned if this book underwent editing at all, given the multiple other issues in it.

If you were talking some kinda ambiguous situation where the problem would only show up under extensive testing, I could understand.

But this spell just states it protects against bullets. And then provides zero game mechanics to deal with it, so the only "as written" conclusion is that it just automatically stops all bullets cold even if cast at Force 1 by a halfwit with rating 1 Magic and Skill. That should have set off red flags just skimming over the section.

It does not follow any of the other well established rules patterns set by Shadowrun. Attack roll vs either Defense Roll or Threshold.



-k

[Jhaiisiin]

One comment from earlier about a lack of playtesters needs to be addressed. CGL isn't lacking playtesters. They're simply not tapping their resources. My group has playtested previous works, and we haven't seen any new work since the RW and DotA projects. We got hammered with playtest after playtest and then nothing. Dunno if we did something to get our funnel of opportunities stopped or not, but my GM hasn't mentioned any such feedback.

[longbowrocks]

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. Mixing physics and magic is a bad idea IMO. YMMV

Ugh. I don't like magic and anything, but I'm super-prejudiced. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ryu]

Slow works until a mass of (200kg*net hits) is moving in the area of effect. Find the appropiate density of air, calculate the volume of the area of effect, find mass, think shockwaves.

[longbowrocks]

ANYTHING that can just stop an attack cold, with no resistance or threshold allowed to defeat it, it is inherently broken.

Hence magic is broken. Although I'm talking about how it does this for a large number of tests across the board:
Easily casting spells at a force over someone's willpower.
Bending light with improved invisibility.
Recharging electronics for infinite portable laser ammo (which works against slow, oh joy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) ).
Ignoring armor.
Hitting people universally with a picture using rituals.
I shouldn't bring this up though, it's been said before.

[longbowrocks]

Slow works until a mass of (200kg*net hits) is moving in the area of effect. Find the appropiate density of air, calculate the volume of the area of effect, find mass, think shockwaves.

This is a nice balance, depending on the result. I like it.

[Mäx]

I will agree that Hi-Power chambering is kinda silly, though. It might have been better called "Increased Caliber", and do away with the silly "this ammo cannot be had in anything but standard ball". It might need to take a lot of slots since you're replacing the barrel and lower receiver, which is really the entire "gun" part of the gun. I would not put it at more than +1 DV though, the SR system does not handle granularity well.

You mean somethink like this:
Higher Caliber
Gun is modified to fire higher caliber bullets then it normally does, this gives the gun +1 to DV.
2 10 shop Weapon price + 2500¥ 10R

Thas what i wrote in to my Weapons&Equipment file about a minute after reading the Hi-power chambering and discarding it as stupid as hell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Irion]

@Ryu

Slow works until a mass of (200kg*net hits) is moving in the area of effect. Find the appropiate density of air, calculate the volume of the area of effect, find mass, think shockwaves.

Well, a double edged sword. If you do it, the mage uses the spell as offance. Dropping the temperature in a given environment down to about 10 Kelvin.
Killing everything in the prozess.

Even if you ignore that trick with the temperature. You still end up with the fact, that air has quite a low density.
Under normal circumstances one m³ of air weights about 1.2 kg.
If you take the approach for an ideal gas pV=mRT (T would be 290 K R=287 J/kg K)
So to get a mass of X kg you would need a combination of pressure (pascal) and V (m³) of at least X*83230. (If you do your calculations with bar: X*8.3)
Yes there is a point, where the area gets so big, the hits can't sustain it anymore.
Force 1: 2.09m³
Force 2: 2.09*2³= 16m³
Force 3: 2.09*3³= 56.43 m³
Force 4: 133m³
Force 5: 261m³(2hits)
Force 6: 451 m³(3 hits)
Force 7: 716 m³(5hits)
Force 8: 1070 m³(7 hits)
Force 9: 1523 m³ (10 hits)
This was for a mage standing on flat ground. If you have him levitating the figures are doubled. (So the spell would be unsuable for a Force greater 6)
(I did not take into account movement in the solid ground so.
But there is always the possibility to withhold dices to reduce the area of effect. (Yes you could try to move a lot of air, but it won't work very good, because the air would mostly move around due to the high pressure surrounding the globe.)

But like I said: If you take molecular movement into account, you open an other can of worms. (Not to mention a radius >3 is stupid to begin with. You would catch your hole team inside. Their weight breaking your spell for sure. Since it is not so common to get 4 or more hits.)

[Fauxknight]

I don't mind the power creep thats in it, most of the creep is held back with unusually high availability ratings. My problem with War is that a lot of the new rules/items don't seem to be very well defined or thought out:

Battle Rifles aren't defined what weapon category they belong in.

The MRSI grenade launcher has the software loaded on it, but isn't a smartgun, which is required to be able to use the software.

MRSI itself isn't that well explained, can it really be done with a BF weapon, or should you use SA to fire it twice in one pass, or do both ways work, tell us please?

How BF and FA firing modes work with grenade launchers isn't expained at all, but it includes launchers capable of both these firing modes.

High powered rounds give a penalty to hit because of excess recoil, but is it actually recoil and is it per round, or just in general?

Anti-Tank rounds don't define what weapons can use them, they actually use 'i.e.' to describe what weapons can use them. We don't need examples of what can use it, we need a list. Also they're cost and availability is fine for regular firearms, but the cost is way low if they really can be used in assault cannons as well, 1/3 the price of regular ammo with only a little bit higher availability and they're significanlty more effective (actually assault cannons kinda need this so they aren't sub-par to sniper rifles).

The Ballistic Mask specifically talks about being able to use 'vision enhancements as well as well as any modification a helmet can take'. It doesn't have a specific capacity listed and what mods a helmet can take isn't actually defined. Most helmets that can take mods specify vision enhancements and sensors, but its just a crap shoot, there is no official list of 'this can fit into helmets'.



There are plenty more examples. I just feel a disconnect when reading it, like the person who wrote it just wasn't very familiar with the system or they didn't have the other rule books available to them when they were writing it. The other rulesbooks like Augmentation and Arsenal are written in a much clearer and more compatible way, if they introduce a new rule on how to handle something they sit you down and say this is how the new rule interacts with the existing rules, War just doesn't do that.

[Stahlseele]

Earth is moving.
WAY more than force*200 kg.
Nowhere does it say in relation to the caster, right?

[Irion]

@Stahlseele

Nowhere does it say in relation to the caster, right?

No, in relation to earth.

The spell is simply overpowered. It is not badly designed.

[Medicineman]

@Stahlseele

No, in relation to earth.

The spell is simply overpowered. It is not badly designed.

Maybe thats the Reason why its omitted in the German Fronteinsatz !?!

With a Dance at the Front
Medicineman

[Irion]

Maybe thats the Reason why its omitted in the German Fronteinsatz !?!

Sounds silly, if you consider the german Streetmagic got the mana static of hell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Prime Mover]

Haven't used anything in War in a game yet. But I've given a few items some thought.

Slow could be dumbed down to simply subtract a number of power points from an attack equal to the force of the spell and success's. This effect can only be applied to the first attack each turn. Usable until sustain is dropped.

Full auto grenade weapons. I used this rule once and like how it works out.

Calculate damage code as you would for any full auto weapon +1 for each additional grenade. Increase area of effect by 1 meter per additional round fired. This keeps damage reasonable, increases effect and still maintains a serious salsa effect.

EDIT: Cleaned up.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Full auto grenade weapons. I used this rule once and like how it works out.

Calculate damage code as you would for any full auto weapon +1 for each additional grenade. Increase area of effect by 1 meter per additional round fired. This keeps damage reasonable, increases effect and still maintains a serious salsa effect.

I would just have the target roll for each grenade explosion he is in the AOE of. at the Damage that Grenade created. Easiest solution, And still quite deadly. The ripple effect is what makes multiple explosive packages deadly, not the combined explosive potential. Individual Explosions do not work that way. If you chose to have them all detonate together in the exact same location, then maybe (Along with the Law of Diminishing Returns that that effect would produce), but not going to happen with the Autofire Grenade Rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Earth is moving.
WAY more than force*200 kg.
Nowhere does it say in relation to the caster, right?

Even easier... The amount of Ft Pounds of Energy that a Bullet Produces could conceivably drop the Slow Spell in its tracks. Convert the energy from Ft. Pounds to Kilograms and you should see what I mean. Of course, that is WAY more information than is provided in the Game, but still a valid conclusion. Your Typical .50 BMG Sniper Round (700 Grains) imparts an Energy Equivalent of 13,971 Ft. Lbsf on Impact (That is 18,941 J)... MORE than enough to handle that Force 15 Spell in a single shot, with energy left over to spare. By comparison, a 230 Grain, HydraSHock .45 ACP (Heavy Pistol) has 414 Ft. Lbsf (561 J). Which will take care of that Force 1 Spell, if the mage is shot twice in that pass. The 7mm Remingtom Magnum (Hunting Rifle) performs better than the Heavy Pistol (Surprise) with 2837 Ft. Lbsf Energy. Enough for the Force 5 Spell.

Simple really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Yes, a Tank can squash the mage . .
But if you need a TANK TO KILL A MAGE . . something is wrong . .

That is like saying X isn't broken cos I can still kill it with a nuclear bomb.

Good job arguing a sarcastic summary :ь

Well basically you look at the top of the post where the poster has included an angry face icon as if to indicate they are angry...

There's a difference between annoyed and mad, but yeah, k, see your point :ь

would you guys rule that it affected lasers, or HE grenades, or flamethrowers, or tear gas, or any other form of smoke if it did, as explosions generate large amounts of heat, and pressure, neither of which would necessarily be stopped, so a HE missile or grenade would likely be able to take out the hapless mage who cannot dodge because he cannot move quickly to the side. Chemicals don't have to be moving at any quick rate of speed to be effective, bullets may be utterly stopped but that just leaves alternate weapons, even if a motorcycle/car isn't available.

The spell description itself says it affects explosions. Lasers, I'm not sure about, but how often do you have lasers in your games anyway?

I'm talking about the Troll himself, and his weight.

The troll's weight matters only when he's in melee range. For ranges greater than one turn's movement, that means the troll is dead meat with Slow.

If the GM says "we're having a street level campaign" and then says "sure, grab stuff from War!" there'sa disconnect.

Not at all. War!, just like any other book, just presents you a set a options. There's this stat called Availability to determine what the runners can or cannot get.

Can't argue with that logic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Oh wait, sure I can. They don't have to get you in melee, they just have to move stuff within the radius of your spell. If you make it incredibly tight then yes, they will get you in melee. If you make it really wide then they'll have more nearby terrain to use.

Nope, you actually can't. Because to move half a ton the mage's way in a moment's notice requires either a weapon powerful enough to level buildings, a vehicle prepared in advance specifically for that occasion (and then driven under a rain of spells), or someone capable of lobbing trash weighting half a ton.

LOL. Tell that to the dead mage from last night. She was almost invincible until the team took a moment to think and work together, then she died.

Right, with a whole team against a single mage you have a chance to win. Except that your team is what, some 1600 BP total, and the mage with Slow can be a pain even on 350 BP. Go-go power balance!

Why are we fighting in the street? Why didn't I bring magical backup or friends?

Because you're in a city? Why didn't the mage?

In any case, if I can't kill him, I run. If I can't run, the GM wanted me dead anyway and no amount of bitching about Slow is going to stop it from happening.

The GM has no obligation to design all the encounters around your team; you're not playing D&D 4E. The NPC mages get the spells the same way as PC mages do; and if a single spell learned turns even a shitty mage into an invincible caster of doom, it's a bad spell. This has nothing to do with GM will. What's not to understand?