Is War! Really that Bad?, Fatum: I moved it here. Let's continue. Options

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

That is 18,941 J

Thats not that easy.
I stands to reason, that the spell would still be harder to break this way. Because it would only count a bullet at a time.

If you drop something in the earth gravity field you end up with an accelaration von around 10 m/s².
So after one second you would have a kinetic energy of e= 1/2 m* v² = m*10²=1/2*200*100=10.000 J. (Minus 200*1²/2= 100J/s)

And to make things worse, you have to consider how fast the bullet is stopped.

A very easy way to do this is going the way of a force field.
The movement of every (non-living?) object is hindered with a strengh equal hits.

[Fatum]

As written, I could throw it up at Force 1 and ignore gunfire as long as I sustained it.

Until a high body ork in heavy armor with a little bit of gear walks up to you and it stops working.

>walks up to you
>walks up
Which gives you at least an additional turn, or maybe two, to turn him into a heap of ash.

It only takes a car if you're in a place with no usable terrain. If that's the case then either the team planned very well or the GM planned poorly.

I've already asked you to explain how the terrain is helping against Slow. Still waiting for the answer.
Or do you think that your GM must always give you a lift crane with lead blocks hanging over any mage's head if said mage is using Slow?

How does an invincible target draw fire? What sort of army continuously fires at one guy that they can't possibly hurt and ignores all other foes? And what sort of army doesn't have magical backup?

It does so by lobbing killy spells around, that's how. Also by being in the way for artillery fire, for example.

I have no idea, we're talking about a nebulous situation. Again, if the spell is unstoppable in the situation then either the GM screwed up or the players rocked out in their planning.

No we are not. Giving an opposing mage a single spell is not a GM's screw-up if that spells means that the runners with whatever weapons they have are fragged; it's a glaring hole in the rules. And it's not like runners know which spells the opposing mages know every time.

If your Stun Bolt (or better, Ball) kills me, then it doesn't matter if you know Slow or not. The turn you cast Slow you could have instead cast Stun Bolt and ended the fight.

Or you need several of those to drop the runner. Or there's a bunch of runners and you can't cover them all with a single Stun Ball. Slow solves those problems, all at once.

Of course not, but I'm also aware that there's no such thing as perfection, especially amongst game designers. Slow is far from the most powerful thing in the game, and it's far from the weakest. There are practically infinite situations in the game and no way for the designers and playtesters to think of them all. It falls on the group playing the game to decide what is to much.

Except firefights are kinda sorta a typical situation for Shadowrun, you know. And Slow solves firefights completely.
Also, I dare you to find anything as powerful as Slow, power-per-nuyen-wise.

Earth is moving.
WAY more than force*200 kg.
Nowhere does it say in relation to the caster, right?

It says "relative to the manasphere, which in most cases is the Earth".

Even easier... The amount of Ft Pounds of Energy that a Bullet Produces could conceivably drop the Slow Spell in its tracks. Convert the energy from Ft. Pounds to Kilograms and you should see what I mean. Of course, that is WAY more information than is provided in the Game, but still a valid conclusion. Your Typical .50 BMG Sniper Round (700 Grains) imparts an Energy Equivalent of 13,971 Ft. Lbsf on Impact (That is 18,941 J)... MORE than enough to handle that Force 15 Spell in a single shot, with energy left over to spare. By comparison, a 230 Grain, HydraSHock .45 ACP (Heavy Pistol) has 414 Ft. Lbsf (561 J). Which will take care of that Force 1 Spell, if the mage is shot twice in that pass. The 7mm Remingtom Magnum (Hunting Rifle) performs better than the Heavy Pistol (Surprise) with 2837 Ft. Lbsf Energy. Enough for the Force 5 Spell.
Simple really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good job converting energy to mass. Could you, please, now convert meters to volts, and amperes to lumens?

[Irion]

Good job converting energy to mass. Could you, please, now convert meters to volts, and amperes to lumens?

Right, now I get what he was doing.
As a matter of fact this approach is quite easy. (e=m*c² + kinetic energy)
But I guess the kinetic energy is not really important that way...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Good job converting energy to mass. Could you, please, now convert meters to volts, and amperes to lumens?

Thanks... I'll be here all week... Lets see:

Meters to Volts. Movement imparts Energy. Harvesting Energy from Human Movement is possible through Piezoelectrical principles. One footstep can provide enough electrical current to light two 60-watt bulbs for one second. That would require 60 Steps per Minute(Damn Fast Walking to be sure, and at 30" per step, that equates out to 46 Meters) to power the Bulbs for a Minute. In Dance clubs that have been used for the research into this application, initial estimates suggest an individual clubgoer could generate roughly 5 to 10 watts, and on a night where the dance floor is packed with moving bodies, the energy from the floor could supply about 60 percent of the club's total energy needs. So 46 Meters/Minute generates 5-10 Watts, at 120 Volts, and about 15-20 Amps. Done, Meters to Volts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Amps to Lumens. Well, Movement generates enough of a current to create actual electricity. This electricity has an Amperage rating of some sort (Usually 15 to 20 Amps), So, Because I can use movement to power my 23 Watt CFL, at standard Ampereage (usually 15 Amps), Each CFL generates 1200 Lumens. There you go, Amps to Lumens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Yes, I know, This is very poor (and largely inaccurate) garage-level science, with no real application in physics (at least only minimal application anyways). Some things just do not convert. Please take it as having a bit of fun, and not too serious.

Point is, everyone gets so hung up on how overpowered the SLOW spell is, and yet, few look for other ways to Impact the Spell at all. It is just a blanket statement that "It is too Powerful."

There are ways to have an effect against the user of the spell. Just like any other things magical, you need to use magic to fight Magic. Or a really heavy Troll with Combat Armor on.

I have also seen comments on the result of what happens when you sap the energy from everything around the caster. Unfortunately, the caster would be the only one truly effected by this, as nothing outside of the field is ever effected. So... Bad for the Mage.

Also sucks for the Mage to be standing anywhere near ANYTHING when this spell is cast, as Everything around him IN A SPHERE is affected by the Spell, and would (should) be included in the weight calculation. I am pretty sure that the Ground/Asphalt/Building/ Car/Whatever else enclosed within the field will instantly negate the spells utility.

Not a really well thought out spell, to be sure. Just convert the spell into an Area Effect Levitate (like it says in the text) with a Weight capacity according to the spell, and it works just fine. Ignore any effects it may have on Bullets/explosions/etc. They make no sense.

Just Sayin.

[Stahlseele]

The Mass Levitate is how the German War! takes care of THAT issue . .
The Nazi-Accountant-Scalpell and going in to fight and loot dead nazis and their victims ghosts simply got cut i think . .
And replaced by stuff that tells us a bit about military units. As would be expected of a book called War! for my sake!

[Fatum]

Not a really well thought out spell, to be sure. Just convert the spell into an Area Effect Levitate (like it says in the text) with a Weight capacity according to the spell, and it works just fine. Ignore any effects it may have on Bullets/explosions/etc. They make no sense.

Just Sayin.

Well, we're discussing just how bad War! is, remember? Sure it's possible to fix some of the stuff in it - rewrite the rules for Slow and Designate, lower those insane numbers in the howitzer damage table, etc. That all is not making the book itself any better.

[James McMurray]

Until a high body ork in heavy armor with a little bit of gear walks up to you and it stops working.
>walks up to you
>walks up
Which gives you at least an additional turn, or maybe two, to turn him into a heap of ash.

If your entire argument hangs on one word, it fall apart pretty quickly. He could also drive up, run up, or be levitated up by his friend. Slap a spirit's Movement on his motorcycle for even more fun.

I've already asked you to explain how the terrain is helping against Slow. Still waiting for the answer.
Or do you think that your GM must always give you a lift crane with lead blocks hanging over any mage's head if said mage is using Slow?

In the scene last night the terrain was a bunch of pregnant women on gurneys hooked to IVs and monitor machines. With the weight the two orks were already providing (plus the mage and her spirit), bumping one gurney into another would have bypassed the weight cap.

It does so by lobbing killy spells around, that's how. Also by being in the way for artillery fire, for example.

Again, why are they shooting at something invincible? I don't care what you're doing, an army that can't possibly touch you isn't going to waste its time shooting at you. If you're truly invincible it surrenders, flees, or dies. If you have friends they can shoot at and they have friends who can handle you, you've just divided the battle, not won it..

Here's the deal: I know for a fact (because I've seen it) that Slow is not an unstoppable force of invincibility. If you want to not use it because it's broken, that's cool. I'll stick with my knowledge, you stick with your belief, and we'll both have fun in our campaigns. However, you absolutely cannot convince me that something I've seen work well is unworkable, and I get the impression I'm not going to convince you, so I'm done debating.

[James McMurray]

The troll's weight matters only when he's in melee range. For ranges greater than one turn's movement, that means the troll is dead meat with Slow.

True. A troll that can't reach the mage and block LOS during that time is dead.

Right, with a whole team against a single mage you have a chance to win. Except that your team is what, some 1600 BP total, and the mage with Slow can be a pain even on 350 BP. Go-go power balance!

Actually, it was a singgle rigger that killed the mage. The other two guys were already down at that point.

Because you're in a city? Why didn't the mage?

Sorry, my games don't have a lot of high noon showdowns in the streets.

The GM has no obligation to design all the encounters around your team; you're not playing D&D 4E. The NPC mages get the spells the same way as PC mages do; and if a single spell learned turns even a shitty mage into an invincible caster of doom, it's a bad spell. This has nothing to do with GM will. What's not to understand?

If you set up instant death scenarios you're a douche of a GM and I don't want to play in your games. System has no bearing on that. If though, you're not a douche, then Slow is just another tool for making interesting encounters.

But, you seem like another case where I just have to agree to disagree. I know that Slow can work, you insist it can't. I'll go with my experience over someone else's theory crafting any day. Have fun! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Faelan]

A simple smoke grenade, flare combo screws the spell, or pretty much anything else which obscures the Mages vision. I don't get what the big deal is, a party without magical support going against a roughly equivalent group with magical support is, and always has been at a serious disadvantage. While the spell on paper is not very well thought out and probably better than originally intended it really is nowhere near to being an instant win.

[Irion]

@James McMurray

But, you seem like another case where I just have to agree to disagree. I know that Slow can work, you insist it can't. I'll go with my experience over someone else's theory crafting any day. Have fun!

This is quite funny, because you said, that your team surrendered, because of slow. So after your experience slow made the mage invincible.

[KarmaInferno]

The Mass Levitate is how the German War! takes care of THAT issue . .
The Nazi-Accountant-Scalpell and going in to fight and loot dead nazis and their victims ghosts simply got cut i think . .
And replaced by stuff that tells us a bit about military units. As would be expected of a book called War! for my sake!

Dammit, it sounds like I want the German version of War!

If I only understood German.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)



-k

[Mäx]

@James McMurray

This is quite funny, because you said, that your team surrendered, because of slow. So after your experience slow made the mage invincible.

No he didn't, he said his team killed the mage who had it.

[KarmaInferno]

A simple smoke grenade, flare combo screws the spell, or pretty much anything else which obscures the Mages vision. I don't get what the big deal is, a party without magical support going against a roughly equivalent group with magical support is, and always has been at a serious disadvantage. While the spell on paper is not very well thought out and probably better than originally intended it really is nowhere near to being an instant win.

Slow is significantly better than any other equivalent option, without a commiserate increase in either the difficulty of obtaining it or using it.

It also does not follow the Shadowrun rules paradigm of opposed rolls or thresholds.

In short, it's too good for what it costs, and doesn't fit the game system.

That is what makes it broken.



-k

[Stahlseele]

Dammit, it sounds like I want the German version of War!

If I only understood German.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)



-k

Learn to German! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ^^

[Yerameyahu]

Obscures the mage's vision? Are you kidding? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faelan]

Slow is significantly better than any other equivalent option, without a commiserate increase in either the difficulty of obtaining it or using it.

It also does not follow the Shadowrun rules paradigm of opposed rolls or thresholds.

In short, it's too good for what it costs, and doesn't fit the game system.

That is what makes it broken.



-k

Don't get me wrong I think it is poorly designed, overpowered, broken even, but I also think there are ways around it even if you leave it as is. For my games I reworded it to work only on things originating within the area of effect. Something new entering or crossing the area is not affected. So slow becomes more of a directed affect instead of a blanket effect. If I am shooting from outside it, it would have no effect, from within and say hello to the 1m/s bullet. Much more workable, but of course a house ruling.

[Irion]

No he didn't, he said his team killed the mage who had it.

Oh, I reread it. Yes. They gave up but the rigger killed him.

[Mäx]

Oh, I reread it. Yes. They gave up but the rigger killed him.

If you counnt going down for the count as giving up, then your correct (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fatum]

If your entire argument hangs on one word, it fall apart pretty quickly. He could also drive up, run up, or be levitated up by his friend. Slap a spirit's Movement on his motorcycle for even more fun.

And that means exchanging exactly how many actions for the one the mage spends casting his Slow?

In the scene last night the terrain was a bunch of pregnant women on gurneys hooked to IVs and monitor machines. With the weight the two orks were already providing (plus the mage and her spirit), bumping one gurney into another would have bypassed the weight cap.

Again, you have to move two orks into the melee range, and add some more weight from out there (and it's not like there's a lot of easily movable mass is available everywhere).

Again, why are they shooting at something invincible? I don't care what you're doing, an army that can't possibly touch you isn't going to waste its time shooting at you. If you're truly invincible it surrenders, flees, or dies. If you have friends they can shoot at and they have friends who can handle you, you've just divided the battle, not won it..

Because fighting back is a reflex? Because you don't know if it's invincible until you try? Because the mage might as well be floating at some chokepoint or other? Spells making mages capable of standing up to whole armies are bad.

Here's the deal: I know for a fact (because I've seen it) that Slow is not an unstoppable force of invincibility. If you want to not use it because it's broken, that's cool. I'll stick with my knowledge, you stick with your belief, and we'll both have fun in our campaigns. However, you absolutely cannot convince me that something I've seen work well is unworkable, and I get the impression I'm not going to convince you, so I'm done debating.

Noone said it's unstoppable. It's just overly, hilariously brokenly good - see my example with Muscle Toner 2.0. Again, that makes it a bad spell, and a bad tool to use in your campaigns, because it is unbalancing.

Actually, it was a singgle rigger that killed the mage. The other two guys were already down at that point.

And what exactly weighted 600 kg on that rigger? I believe our whole previous discussion has led us to conclusion that you need a whole team to take a single Slow-using mage down, so far...

Sorry, my games don't have a lot of high noon showdowns in the streets.

Oh, so, no break-ins, no getaways, no gang fights, no nothing? Sad.

If you set up instant death scenarios you're a douche of a GM and I don't want to play in your games. System has no bearing on that. If though, you're not a douche, then Slow is just another tool for making interesting encounters.

If a tool allows me to make any low-difficulty encounter into a deathtrap, it's a bad tool. If that same tool requires me to call the army on the runners to be able to do them harm, it's an awful tool that should not be used.

But, you seem like another case where I just have to agree to disagree. I know that Slow can work, you insist it can't. I'll go with my experience over someone else's theory crafting any day. Have fun! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Of course, a single case makes for better proof than comprehensive analysis.
Have fun in your games, as well.

A simple smoke grenade, flare combo screws the spell, or pretty much anything else which obscures the Mages vision. I don't get what the big deal is, a party without magical support going against a roughly equivalent group with magical support is, and always has been at a serious disadvantage. While the spell on paper is not very well thought out and probably better than originally intended it really is nowhere near to being an instant win.

Uh, visibility modifiers are bad, but not all THAT bad for mages. It's not like you can't cast still with those.
And the problem is that in a duel of two parties, exactly similar in everything but the mages' spell loadout, the one with Slow is at immense advantage.

Dammit, it sounds like I want the German version of War!
If I only understood German.

Most German SR books are better - in editing, content, and everything forever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
You have two options - hating the Germans' guts and learning German. I'm doing both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Faelan]

Obscures the mage's vision? Are you kidding? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry I may be missing something. As far as I know the spell requires line of sight to target the area. I have not seen anywhere in the books where it states that sustaining a spell suddenly creates a void in the other requirements, which is why most of the time in my games people sustain spells on themselves since they don't need to keep a visual cue on it. Now I do realize many mages will have optics and be capable of negating that solution, however if I am mistaken about LOS please direct me to where it is explained in detail.

[Yerameyahu]

Now I do realize many mages will have optics and be capable of negating that solution

Yes, and they all have Astral Perception.

[longbowrocks]

Yes, and they all have Astral Perception.

Must...Resist...Temptation...To restart this argument... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Irion]

@Mäx
Players tend to not give in any second earlier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@Faelan

Don't get me wrong I think it is poorly designed, overpowered, broken even, but I also think there are ways around it even if you leave it as is.

There are always ways around. Even the aspected mana static did not make a given mage immortal. He was just the hell better than any magic opposition.

The point is: This spell does to a mage what binky achieved for 3 BP.

The hell, if you use edge and you have a good pool you might survive a freaking thorshot. (right you would need 12 hits, but hey. Surviving a thor shot in the face is worth throwing 40 dices. Well, as a matter of fact you do not need this amount of hits. since the thor shot would enter the area and would be slowed down. Then he would slowly continue to fall, untill enough mass entered the area to break the spell. By this time most of the kinetic energy of the thorshot would be used up for deformation(or absorbed by the field) of the pole itself. So the depris will fall down from maybe 50 meters. A physical barrier should offer enough protection from that...

[Faelan]

Smoke would still obscure on the Astral since it is made up of particulates, and the act of shifting would generally indicate that LOS was interrupted unless he was doing it preemptively, but even then you just walk the grenades in (not literally, an artillery term). I don't see how Astral Perception would be a guarantee.

[Yerameyahu]

Smoke does not. That's why there's FAB.