[X] My Assistant

[Irion]

Yeah, and Mengele assassinated. Still, in the time between their apture/death and running off they did not revert to their old ways. That's the point.

One was in prison and the third reich ceased to exist.

How could they return to their old ways?

They would have, if they had the chance.

And as far as I know Mengele drowned/had a stroke. As a matter of fact I do not believe he was assassinated. (He would have been worth much more taken alive.)

[Whipstitch]

The states' definition of murder is irrelevant in any other juristiction (lots don't differ between degrees, some exempt certain motives, ect).

And precise legal terminology often means extremely little to people who aren't lawyers given that law is often concerned as to what the responsibility of the state is in a situation as opposed to what makes someone a decent person vs. a right bastard. The whole concept of provocation is a particularly thorny issue.

[CanRay]

The definition of murder depends on which side of the noose you're on, I think.

[suoq]

Yerameyahu - Your recon must work better than my recon. How do you know which gang members are punks and which are ex-marines with freaking Panthers in a secret compartment behind the all too well armored underneath bar?

[James McMurray]

Yerameyahu - Your recon must work better than my recon. How do you know which gang members are punks and which are ex-marines with freaking Panthers in a secret compartment behind the all too well armored underneath bar?

Easy. Your team Face walks in and asks "excuse me, is anyone here an ex-marine with a freaking Panther in a secret compartment behind the all too well armored underneath bar?" She then rolls her 22 dice against their 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Makki]

HE grenades cost 45 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) apiece. They can be detonated through a wireless signal. Just get them to open the door, a spirit chugs a shoebox full of them in, hacker presses a button on his commlink. Boom.

Blowing something up isn't all that hard nor is it all that expensive. A building without serious perimeter defenses is easy to destroy.

---

Brute firepower in SR is fairly cheap and fairly available. An operation without collateral damage is generally harder.

switch the HE grenades with Flash-Bangs (30 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) or Pepper Punch Gas Grenades (25 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) and everybody is down while the loot is still intact

[redwulf25]

switch the HE grenades with Flash-Bangs (30 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) or Pepper Punch Gas Grenades (25 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) and everybody is down while the loot is still intact

I'd go with neuro stun. Let them have a nice snooze.

[Ascalaphus]

But wouldn't the neurostun gas do damage every round, quickly moving into overflow?

[redwulf25]

But wouldn't the neurostun gas do damage every round, quickly moving into overflow?

This colorless and odorless knockout gas is used for emergency containment conditions. Neuro-Stun comes in different concentrations. Some become inert after only 10 minutes of contact with the air; others become inert after only 1 minute. Wind and other environmental conditions may disperse the gas more quickly.

Use a low concentration and come in with a fan. Or an air spirit.

[Wolfgar]

OP here, ready to describe in detail just what went down when my runners burned some loot. When I presented the 'Jazz' to my players, that's just what it was-- loot for their shadow runners. It was the end of the adventure, the technomancer had just finished looting a small drone from the burning biker compound, and the players we're asking what else the found. I said, "Well, there's a case full of Jazz." They said "Burn it," "Yeah," and "Whatever."

I was genuinely surprised. One of the players even noted my surprise after the session. They had instantly turned down the loot, with no discussion of possibly selling it or keeping some for themselves (I had even shown the usefulness of the drug- the bikers they had just fought had taken some). I'm not saying their is anything wrong with this- If they want to play moral characters, I'm all for it. I'm just surprised.

For one reason, in-game two of the characters have addictions themselves. The street sam Raid is addicted to BTLs, and the shaman has Focus addict. Yet neither of their characters could see themselves turning a profit on this.

For another reason, out of game, I've been playing with this group for a while, and moral characters are not the norm. Through D&D, Star Wars, nWoD Mage and Changeling, we've seen necromancers, mercenaries, racists, fanatics, thieves, greedy punks and even an executioner as characters. I'm just wondering why the picked Shadowrun to play the good guys.

As for the "Explanation to the Biker leader," there's more to that. In a later post. Gonna eat dinner first.

Anyway, Wolfgar, this is just a fun challenge for you and the group. You can tempt them with money, and put them in more desperate situations where they have to choose between survival/success and goodness. Their inevitable moral degradation will be a great theme!

Moral degradation is now first on my docket! The players didn't even kill one biker! For their next run, I had already planned for the new Ms. Johnson to be more forceful and ruthless. Seeing their no blood policy, she's gonna require proof that they'll use traditional violence- by paying them a grand right then and there to beat up some 'random' corp middle manager dancing across the club. (Course it's a rival of Ms. J, but the player's may not know that.)

[CanRay]

Yerameyahu - Your recon must work better than my recon. How do you know which gang members are punks and which are ex-marines with freaking Panthers in a secret compartment behind the all too well armored underneath bar?

They way they walk and behave.

Training never goes completely away. If you know what to look for, you can tell. Especially if you got another Marine watching.

Lack of training is also telling, and is a different form of discipline. If you know what to look for, you can tell. Especially if you got another Punk watching.

[nezumi]

This sounds like an excellent situation.

Your players had fun and got engaged.

They role-played out characters against stereotypes and worked together as a group.

They achieved their goals.

As a GM, your job isn't to get the players to play how you want. Encourage them to play 'good' characters. Your job is to take those aspects of their play that they take for granted and twist and strain them until their tiny golden hearts groan for pain, and even if they don't stab the little old lady down the street in the eyeball, they at least consider it. Don't make it a lynchpin of the campaign, but make sure there's at least one mission where 'shoot the kid' is the easy answer and they have to struggle to stay good.

Meanwhile, encourage them to be good. Let them get jobs from the community, or from organizations which (at least outwardly) are working for the better. You can play with this too. For example, set them to work clearing out a troubled neighborhood so Manus for Metahumanity can get that new church and commune running (note: Mans for Metahumanity is an Aztechnology affiliate). Invest them in the people they're working with. Encourage them to take up political causes and establish real, moral enemies and causes they can rail against. Help them start a band. This is a good way to play Shadowrun, perhaps the original way to play Shadowrun (check out SR1 and Cyberpunk 2020 for inspiration). Run with it. Invest them in it. Enjoy.

[Faelan]

They way they walk and behave.

Training never goes completely away. If you know what to look for, you can tell. Especially if you got another Marine watching.

Lack of training is also telling, and is a different form of discipline. If you know what to look for, you can tell. Especially if you got another Punk watching.

Completely true. If you pay any attention to body language, and general movement the people with training stand out. Trying to hide it is really hard, and the ones acting like they know something but don't really also stand out. If you have been trained picking people out of a crowd becomes a game to play.

[CanRay]

Completely true. If you pay any attention to body language, and general movement the people with training stand out. Trying to hide it is really hard, and the ones acting like they know something but don't really also stand out. If you have been trained picking people out of a crowd becomes a game to play.

Body language and vocal patterns are two ways that a lot of intelligence agencies are able to ID people. I've read in a few places that they can pinpoint an accent down to a few blocks in New York City. Not sure if that is hyperbole or now...

[Yerameyahu]

suoq, what are you talking about? I didn't say anything about telling if bikers are Marines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

suoq, what are you talking about? I didn't say anything about telling if bikers are Marines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

the run wasn't too difficult to stop them from choosing it

When I make that decision, I frequently don't know how difficult the run is going to be. I find the difference between pacify measures and nuke measures to not be very large. I find that the things I don't discover during recon to have a greater impact that pacify vs. nuke.

----

They way they walk and behave.

Training never goes completely away. If you know what to look for, you can tell. Especially if you got another Marine watching.

Lack of training is also telling, and is a different form of discipline. If you know what to look for, you can tell. Especially if you got another Punk watching.

Having spent too much time on the streets where most of my friends had yellow sheets and having served for four years, I have to admit that I have no clue what you're talking about. Heck, half the marines on Top Shot season 1 could have been rednecks from their behavior. Was there ANYTHING about Adam on that show that made you think he could even find the safety on the gun? Meanwhile the kid is shooting a smiley face with his rifle.

To me this sounds like Gaydar, Some people swear they can tell, but when asked which of the local rollergirls swing which way, they're not accurate.

Edit: Corrected above name to Adam. The guy who wrote "RAT FINK" on the pool table.

[CanRay]

Really? Can you also not tell when someone's a cop?

Maybe you grew up in the wrong neighborhood.

[suoq]

Really? Can you also not tell when someone's a cop?

Out of uniform, if I don't know them? No. I can't. I'd be more likely to suspect Henry Rollins of being a bad ass with a gun than any of our local cops, on or off base. Half of the local cops/guards I'd suspect of being more at ease behind a barstool than behind a firing range.

I'm mentally running a list through my head of friends and relatives who served in combat and in elite units and I'll be danged if I can think of any traits they have in common. I think unless you actually get them in that specific situation, that persona isn't the one they're using at the moment. They're using another, more appropriate, persona. (At work, we call them "hats" as in "I'm going to put my manager hat on now".)

[zend0g]

Really? Can you also not tell when someone's a cop?

Maybe you grew up in the wrong neighborhood.

Oh yeah, that must be why police undercover assignments always fail. As for the spotting a marine thing, there are more factors to consider. A marine that spent twelve years in the service, saw front line combat as infantry will stick out if he is still physically and mentally healthy. A marine that only spent fours years active, never saw combat, was in a non-infantry MoS and then went back to his previous gang lifestyle when he got out would be harder to pick out if at all.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I see your confusion, suoq. They would *find out* that their choice was bad only later, if the opposition was too strong for the selective approach. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I wasn't saying they made the decision intelligently. I was saying that they survived because the bikers were too weak.

[CanRay]

Oh yeah, that must be why police undercover assignments always fail. As for the spotting a marine thing, there are more factors to consider. A marine that spent twelve years in the service, saw front line combat as infantry will stick out if he is still physically and mentally healthy. A marine that only spent fours years active, never saw combat, was in a non-infantry MoS and then went back to his previous gang lifestyle when he got out would be harder to pick out if at all.

Lots of training goes into Undercover work, to get rid of the "Tells".

And you just described a clerk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Guess they're still a marine even if they were a desk jockey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

'Course, I should be the last one to talk, shouldn't I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

You could have a "rival" team of shadowrunners. They don't seek out fights with the PCs or so - they just see each other across the bar from time to time. And while the PCs get all the "moral" jobs, the Other Team gets better-paying, less-moral jobs.

Just as a way of tempting the players, when they see the gear the other team is stocking up on. And it's always interesting to have a rival.

[hermit]

And as far as I know Mengele drowned/had a stroke. As a matter of fact I do not believe he was assassinated. (He would have been worth much more taken alive.)

So would bin Laden. Did he die from a stroke, too?

And precise legal terminology often means extremely little to people who aren't lawyers given that law is often concerned as to what the responsibility of the state is in a situation as opposed to what makes someone a decent person vs. a right bastard. The whole concept of provocation is a particularly thorny issue.

Decency, of course, being hardly clearly defined, just as being a right bastard.

Moral degradation is now first on my docket! The players didn't even kill one biker! For their next run, I had already planned for the new Ms. Johnson to be more forceful and ruthless. Seeing their no blood policy, she's gonna require proof that they'll use traditional violence- by paying them a grand right then and there to beat up some 'random' corp middle manager dancing across the club. (Course it's a rival of Ms. J, but the player's may not know that.)

That's a pretty good reason to turn down a job, so you may want to prepare for that, just in case it happens.

[Faelan]

Having spent too much time on the streets where most of my friends had yellow sheets and having served for four years, I have to admit that I have no clue what you're talking about. Heck, half the marines on Top Shot season 1 could have been rednecks from their behavior. Was there ANYTHING about Adam on that show that made you think he could even find the safety on the gun? Meanwhile the kid is shooting a smiley face with his rifle.

To me this sounds like Gaydar, Some people swear they can tell, but when asked which of the local rollergirls swing which way, they're not accurate.

While I will never claim to be able to tell sexual orientation or occupation 100% of the time, give me 30-60 minutes of covert or not so covert surveillance and I will be able to tell you with 90% certainty whether someone is a threat or as had training. I spent 8 years in the Marine Corps and half of it was as an Instructor at the School of Infantry. Needless to say I did not pick these skills up teaching kids how to kill other people, however I did a lot of coursework and personal research into the subject, I was planning on moving into the Intelligence field when personal issues got in the way. I cannot claim you can tell where someone received training or how long ago most of the time, however assessing the degree of threat is possible, and probable training based on observing. If you cannot tell then you simply have not been paying attention to the right things.

Canray called them tells and much like in a poker game they give you away, unless you have been trained and practice hiding them they will give you away every time. Each perceived item is not going to explain anything to you however taken as a whole you can know with fair certainty whether someone is telling the truth, hiding something, or in this case trained. Things to look for off the top of my head and there are more, once you start doing this as an exercise things stick out to you that normally would not. 1) While watching the subject in question how do they hold themselves? Remember your mom giving you crap about posture, well posture is a good indicator of confidence. Confidence comes from two places, ignorance or training. I am not saying you should ignore the slouchers, but when you do surveillance you need to prioritize, the longer you have to do it the more info you get the better your assessment. 2) People with weapons always reach and touch it from time to time, just to make sure it is there. It is kind of like checking to see if your wallet is still there, you don't realize you do it, but most people do it fairly regularly. If you watch long enough you can see a pattern of behavior that tells you what is where. If you watch someone for a period of 4 hours, you should have a very good idea of where any weapons are, what they most likely are, where any comm equipment might be, and also where his wallet is. 3) How do they look at their environment. Do they move around furtively? Likely hiding something. Do they look around in sections, is there a pattern? Guarding something possibly trained to a degree. Nervous man is more dangerous he is unpredictable, of course he can be used against calm guarding man if needed. Observe how they react to loud noises, traffic, pedestrian activity. The guy who does not look like he is looking at anything in particular, has his back to the wall and seems somewhat relaxed is probably the one you are looking for. 3) How do they walk outside of their posture? I mean everything here, how do they move their arms, how do their feet hit the ground, how much knee flex, the cant of their torso, head tilt, all of these things can tell you whether this guy is going to be a problem, or if he is a push over and you will pound them into gravy if need be. 4) Watch their interactions with others and the perceived social dynamic. Who is the Alpha? If you watch for any length of time you will know their social order, and usually top dog is the toughest dog, or at least the one willing to commit to violence with real dedication. 5) If you can listen to them, do so. The way things are said, how they are said, and their content build patterns that you can find if you listen long enough.

Anyway I could keep going on about this, but really it takes a lot of practice and a lot of study, and a lot of actual recon or surveillance to make it a useful skill. Most people suck at it because they simply don't pay enough attention to their environment, and what other people are doing. Can I look at someone and say "Yup, yup, he is a Marine." No, absolutely not, I could and be dead wrong, but give me some time, and I could be spot on. Every second of additional assessment time makes a difference, how they grab drinks, do they hesitate as if they were going to field strip a cigarette, how do they light their cigarettes, what kind of idiomatic phrases do they use, "Good to go is it not?". Everything you have done or learned is expressed in your mind, and it all comes out on your face, body, and interactions for anyone who is paying attention to use. Anyway I gotta go to work.

[nezumi]

Like Faelan said, when you live certain behaviors for a while, they tend to show. I can generally tell cops from marines due to the haircut and the dominant asshole level (at least, I think!), but more broadly, you can tell the people who normally operate at code yellow/orange, trained to walk at military stride, and used to working out every day (or to eating 2,000 more calories than the normal person).

That said, as you move away from Marines into groups where individuals are permitted to be beautiful and unique flowers, that skill falls off. I (of all people!) have been confused with military because I use NATO letters and military time. I'm just sick of people mispelling my name or being late to appointments! I doubt I could pick a naval officer from a crowd if he's not in uniform, and my only clue for USAF is they oftentimes have pictures or old casings in their cubicle.