Spoofing vs Slaved Commlink |
Spoofing vs Slaved Commlink |
Jun 2 2011, 06:09 PM
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#51
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Yes, but the fact that Pilots exist and *themselves* have trouble interpreting commands ('go kill that there') overwhelmingly implies that something lacking a Pilot shouldn't be able to do what a Pilot does.
It certainly depends on the command in question, but I'm saying it's better to err on the side of 'less spoofable' for commlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It just seems more fair. After all, Issue Command is a 'tweet-sized list' at max (often, more than you need), and Spoof Command is "Each Spoof Command action applies only to a single command; multiple commands require multiple Spoof Command attempts." |
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Jun 2 2011, 06:09 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
You seem to be amazingly underestimating what a spoof command can do. You don't think that it can do three painfully simple things in one command? When commanding a drone you don't have to send thousands of commands of "move your left leg, now your right leg, now your left leg, now lift your gun, aim it at the target, pull the trigger, pull the trigger again, etc", you just send it the command of "Go there and engage enemies" Similarly you don't have to send the commands "Create account for ID X, Demaster from device B, master device X" You just say "Change master to X" Also, I'm fairly sure that the account that device B would be using is simply the "Master account" ie. whoever is listed as the master always uses that account. So it isn't that Device B has an account and happens to be the master, it is that Device B is the master, and thus is using the account that is automatically used for the master. Because if you really try, it's fairly easy to make something entirely unhackable, or a facility impossible to break into, but that really isn't in the spirit of being a game. Also, it isn't hard to imagine that the spoof program is able to bypass/defeat such a simple script. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You seem to be under the impression that there is a "master account." I'm not sure that is a thing. It's not something I can find in either the BBB or Unwired. There are only 4 types of accounts. Public, user, security and admin. If the device is slaved, then it's master has admin access and it won't receive wireless commands from other users. The slaving of it takes up a subscription slot, but that is by no means a "master account." Therefore giving the command "Change Master Account" can't be done because there is no such thing. The three things you are asking it to do aren't "painfully simple." To suggest that a device would perform multiple actions after one command is like suggesting that performing the action "Download all files with X." That is also something you can't do. You first have to find the files with Browse. Then you have to Decrypt them, then you have to download them. Similarly you can't give the command "Kick off all users that aren't me." or anything like that because that is not a Matrix action. The actions you can take are represented by the Matrix rules. Also, a System can't perform actions, it can only do things it is told to do. A Pilot program can be told "Go shoot that guy." and can interpret that info, usually after a Pilot x 2 + Adaptablility + Fuzzy Logic roll. A System has no such roll. It doesn't have a dog brain like a Pilot program. Moreover, it has no IPs, so it's can't take the multiple actions you are suggesting it do. Even if it could interpret your Command, it would first have too delete it's former enslavement on it's first action, then add your Access ID to it's data banks of acceptable users on it's next action, then slave itself to your commlink on it's third action. Thus you still couldn't do this in one action as you suggested. But, as Systems don't have actions, this is something the Spoofer has to do. A Pilot program might be able to do this if it had the necessary programs like Edit, but not a commlink. As I said, this is something that can be done, but it can't be done in one command or one action. Things are only truly un-hackable if you start creating your own Matrix actions and ignore the rules system set in place to interpret such complex systems as the 2070 Matrix. |
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Jun 2 2011, 06:50 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932 |
I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by master account. I mean an Access ID admin account which is automatically set to whoever the master happens to be.
And to suggest that a device can't perform multiple actions is ludicrous. As I explained, you only have to hit one button to install a program, despite the fact that the installation process requires (among other things): to create multiple folders, to extract files, to install files in multiple locations, to add itself to the program registry, to make a desktop shortcut, to make a start menu shortcut, possibly add itself to the 'run on startup' list. This is exactly comparable to whatever steps might be required to slave a device. Both require a single command. "Install program X" or "Make this device a slave to device X". If you want to claim that changing the master of a slaved device requires more than a single command, then you need to realize that everything you do in the matrix would require dozens or hundreds of commands. Also, I'm fairly sure there is a 'disconnect all users' action specifically spelled out in the matrix rules, though I could be wrong. Yep, there it is, p223 BBB. But that is entirely beside the point. You also don't need to decrypt a file before you download it, you just need to decrypt it before you can do much of anything with it. CODE IF (access_ID==Master_access_ID) { treat commands as admin } ELSE { block connection send access_ID to Master_access_ID } From the description, I figure this is more or less exactly how slaving works, so all you need to do is change what the master access ID is. Since you're the one complaining about actions not in the book, I'd like you to find where it says "A master requires an admin account" as opposed to "A master has admin access". Also keep in mind that when I say "send the command 'change master to X'" I don't mean that is literally what you send. I mean you send whatever the code equivalent of getting that done would be, there is no need for the commlink to interpret anything. |
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Jun 2 2011, 07:43 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by master account. I mean an Access ID admin account which is automatically set to whoever the master happens to be. Again, this isn't something I see anywhere. I don't think this is a thing in Shadowrun. It would be counter intuitive to even have such a thing. You need Admin Access to slave a node, therefore you just give it a subscription slot. Why would you make a script that would give admin access and a master subscription to another user? If such a line of code existed, and I can't find anywhere that it does, why wouldn't you delete it? And to suggest that a device can't perform multiple actions is ludicrous. As I explained, you only have to hit one button to install a program, despite the fact that the installation process requires (among other things): to create multiple folders, to extract files, to install files in multiple locations, to add itself to the program registry, to make a desktop shortcut, to make a start menu shortcut, possibly add itself to the 'run on startup' list. This is exactly comparable to whatever steps might be required to slave a device. Both require a single command. Except you aren't talking about obscure Matrix concepts, you are talking about specific Matrix actions that must run in real time with the rest of combat. Load Program can be done in one Matrix action and all the addition computer stuff is presumed to occur within that action. Changing and deleting subscriptions are very specific Matrix actions, all of which take a Complex action. Specifically they are Edit actions. One cannot perform more than one Complex action per Initiative pass. These require multiple Commands. Also, I'm fairly sure there is a 'disconnect all users' action specifically spelled out in the matrix rules, though I could be wrong. Yep, there it is, p223 BBB. But that is entirely beside the point. You also don't need to decrypt a file before you download it, you just need to decrypt it before you can do much of anything with it. If you are referring to Terminate Connection, this can only be done against one person at a time and only if they don't have a legit account. That is it's limitation and why "dissconnect all users that aren't me" isn't a Command you can give. It is too broad and doesn't take into account all the things happening in the Matrix that the rules are there to interpret. If you are referring to System Reset, then that takes more than 1 IP and does far more than dissconnect all users. In the Decrypting scenario, one is presuming the files are Encrypted. You still need to find them first, which takes multiple Matrix actions. From the description, I figure this is more or less exactly how slaving works, so all you need to do is change what the master access ID is. Since you're the one complaining about actions not in the book, I'd like you to find where it says "A master requires an admin account" as opposed to "A master has admin access". Unwired p. 53 "Admin privileges empower individuals to... assign access levels to accounts, and assign privileges to account levels." p. 98 "To add, alter, or delete an account, you would almost certainly need to spoof a command from someone with admin privileges." I think adding a subscription falls under the heading of altering an account and creating a master/slave connection certainly falls under the heading of assigning access levels. Also keep in mind that when I say "send the command 'change master to X'" I don't mean that is literally what you send. I mean you send whatever the code equivalent of getting that done would be, there is no need for the commlink to interpret anything. I understand what you are wanting to do, but you can't do it in one command. You are giving the system multiple conflicting orders with that order. Much like the command "Download all files about X" or "Give all icons that aren't me User Access only" or any other million things you can imagine. It's just like combat. You can say "I toss the guy shooting at me into the other guy shooting at me" and that is something you can do, but first you have to roll to grab the guy, then roll to throw him then roll to hit the second guy. These are doable things, but you have to follow the rules in order. The FAQs try to throw out the baby with the bath water and say you can't Spoof nodes, but not only does this contradict Unwired, it's more limiting than I think most people want to make it. In order not to throw off game balance, you have to use the Matrix rules as they stand. |
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Jun 2 2011, 07:50 PM
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#55
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
In your code example, you make it clear that the system will only accept input from the master.
If I understand your point, you are saying that you can send a single command that will edit the "slave.ini" to replace the previous access ID with your access ID. Which of the commands listed in the Shadowrun rules will do that? It seems to me you still would have to get yourself in somehow before you could edit that file. As in, you would have to spoff a command to un-slave. Then, hack the system to give yourself an admin account, then slave it to yourself. Your idea only works if that file were a text based .ini that you could use your one command to copy on to the system (which I also don't think would work, but let's not worry about that right now). As apposed to an encrypted hex file that you would need to steal, decrypt, and pick through line by line til you found the line, in hex, that contains the Access ID. Edit that line. Re-encrypt using the same software and key, then copy the file back to the target, and telling it to over-write the origonal. Right? Now, even if the file is an unencrypted ASCII .ini file, how do you, with one spoofed command, edit it? |
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Jun 2 2011, 07:53 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
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Jun 2 2011, 08:15 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932 |
You're extrapolating a ton of stuff. Read through the book, there is no action at all, of any kind, that causes a device to become the slave to another device. There are no listed requirements for a device to be a slave to another device. Any requirement or action you come up with is just as much 'not a thing in shadowrun' as my idea that you can spoof 'change master to X'. I say again that if you'd like to show me where it says the requirements of making a device a slave, or the actions required to do so, I'd love to see it. Because until then, by your own arguments, making a slave is in fact impossible because it isn't listed as an action. Sure, it says that you can make a device a slave, but it never says how, and since it doesn't say how, it isn't an action in shadowrun, just like changing the master isn't an action.
In your code example, you make it clear that the system will only accept input from the master. If I understand your point, you are saying that you can send a single command that will edit the "slave.ini" to replace the previous access ID with your access ID. Which of the commands listed in the Shadowrun rules will do that? It seems to me you still would have to get yourself in somehow before you could edit that file. As in, you would have to spoff a command to un-slave. Then, hack the system to give yourself an admin account, then slave it to yourself. Your idea only works if that file were a text based .ini that you could use your one command to copy on to the system (which I also don't think would work, but let's not worry about that right now). As apposed to an encrypted hex file that you would need to steal, decrypt, and pick through line by line til you found the line, in hex, that contains the Access ID. Edit that line. Re-encrypt using the same software and key, then copy the file back to the target, and telling it to over-write the origonal. Right? Now, even if the file is an unencrypted ASCII .ini file, how do you, with one spoofed command, edit it? No, it is pulling the variable of the master_access_ID, which is something that you would generally be able to easily change with a single command. There is no need to edit any kind of .ini file any more than there is a need to edit a .ini file to do anything at all on a computer. As I've said a dozen times before, you just have to send the command that changes the master's access ID to whatever you want it to be. Let me say it this way: Somehow it is possible to make a device a slave to another device. We don't know the exact processes involved in this, just like we don't know the exact processes involved in running a program or installing a program. We do however know that it is possible. And just like installing a program, it is likely done (since everything is geared towards user friendliness) in a fairly quick format that requires as little input from the user as possible, just like installing a program is done by double clicking the .exe file and hitting yes a few times. Thus there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to send a single spoofed command to run that same setup process to change the master to something else, just like you should be able to send a single spoofed command to install a program. |
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Jun 2 2011, 08:57 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 |
I say again that if you'd like to show me where it says the requirements of making a device a slave, or the actions required to do so, I'd love to see it. PG 59 Unwired. QUOTE Perhaps the easiest way to secure a PAN is to slave each subnode to the commlink (see Slaving, p. 55). That's the action, slaving the node. Don't ask me where Bearclaw (or anyone else) is getting his idea that the slave action can't be spoofed. I don't get it either. As far as I'm concerned the easiest thing to do if that happens to one of your devices is physically turn the device off. From a programmer standpoint, I need to be able to move slave nodes to other nodes and it makes life a LOT easier if the master node can do that. Now if someone wants to write on their character sheet that the only way to deslave a node is (for example) to reboot it, sure. However I've found people tend to regret excessive security measures. Make a device secure enough and eventually it will lock you out. That's why most security isn't secure. No one puts up with being locked out of their car or home and discovering a locksmith can't unlock it in under a minute. They want security that a locksmith can bypass but criminals can't. For fun, sell people those lug nuts that can't be removed except by the unique tool that (I guarantee you) they'll be unable to find when they have a flat tire. Oh man, those people get mad... |
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Jun 2 2011, 09:10 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932 |
Right, but my point is that it is something you can do, not an action. It isn't a simple action, isn't a free action, isn't complex or extended. It doesn't list what if any kind of roll is required to do so, or what kind of access is required to make it happen on a device. All it says is that slaving a device is possible, which by all rights means that changing the master of a slaved device should also be possible, but similarly lists no exact actions, conditions, or requirement for doing so.
So, Fortinbras' constant argument that changing the master isn't an action spelled out in the book applies equally to making anything a slave in the first place. It also means that his insistence that being a master requires an access id admin account equally untrue, as that is also not listed as a requirement. It also means that any steps he lists as being required to change the master are entirely of his own fabrication. |
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Jun 2 2011, 09:17 PM
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#60
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I didn't read everything yet, but *any* change on a device should be assumed to be at minimum a Change Linked Device Mode (Free action), or something like it. Obviously.
It's pretty reasonable to assume that slaving requires an admin account, though. The alternative is just incredibly bad computer security, and would instantly be changed if it were the case. |
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Jun 2 2011, 09:19 PM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 |
similarly lists no exact actions, conditions, or requirement for doing so. Take a deep breath. It's Shadowrun. If you do find an exact action, condition, or requirement in the rules, treasure it, especially if you look and you can't find a conflicting action, condition, or requirement somewhere else in the rules. Eyeball it. Wing it. Roll with it. It's not neurosurgery. It's a role playing game in a world that fractally doesn't make sense*. *anything that doesn't make sense is supported by other things that also turn out not to make sense which are supported by other things that.... |
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Jun 2 2011, 09:25 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
You're extrapolating a ton of stuff. Read through the book, there is no action at all, of any kind, that causes a device to become the slave to another device. There are no listed requirements for a device to be a slave to another device. Slaving requires a Subscription.(Unwired p.55) A slave may only be subscribed to one master(same) Subscribing to a node is a Complex action(SR4a p.224 & 231) Unsubscribing to a node is a Simple Action action(SR4a p. 229) When one subscribes to a node, one does so at a particual access level, from public to admin(SR4a p. 225) To slave a node requires Admin Access(Unwired p. 53 & 98) One must terminate the ongoing subscription by spoofing that simple action. Then one must create or hack a subscription at Admin access, at least one complex action. Then one must make that subscription slaved. This is most likely a Spoof Command Complex action if one is still spoofing or a Change Linked Device Free Action if you are hacked in. Even if you sent this as a script for the System to execute, it couldn't be done in one turn. Just because you can't find the rule, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. |
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Jun 2 2011, 09:40 PM
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#63
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 |
Unless said methods involve clustering at which point I start to work on a way to feed them to ghouls. Why? Clustering allows you to run a whole bunch of IC. My combat medic mage has 13 independent pieces of 'ware. If they were all alphaware, then I could run 26 rating 4 programs on the resulting Node. That would be the following:
This would be multiplied 5 times (4 Attackers and 1 Medic), so when your NPC hacker comes in he gets a VERY rude surprise. This also doesn't take into account what IC is running on my 'Link... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) |
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Jun 2 2011, 09:48 PM
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#64
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
That all seems pretty clear, Fortinbras. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Because doing it with *cyberware* is pure evil, KCKitsune. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hehe. Clustering *real* nodes in order to run more IC is fine (although you could also just run them on those nodes and link in, which is the usual method with spiders). |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:05 PM
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#65
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 |
This would be multiplied 5 times (4 Attackers and 1 Medic), so when your NPC hacker comes in he gets a VERY rude surprise. This also doesn't take into account what IC is running on my 'Link... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) Yes, but you'd scream bloody murder if the corps did that by comparison. Every single player I have had use clustering on me at a con that i've gotten time to reverse the roles has flipped their lid. Clustering was obviously written by someone with only a passing understanding of computers or even electronics in general. This notion that there is all this extra CPU cycles on your ware or your toaster to make it comparable to a dedidicated computer device is patently rediculous. It's like someonje read about seti at home and suddenly thought it was a viable project in microcosm. It's not clever it's just bad rules. |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:17 PM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So wait... You're saying players don't want to be turned to paste by their own ideas? Then why do they keep coming up with such nasty stuff? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jun 2 2011, 10:23 PM
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#67
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 |
I might even give a little bit of credit if it was something that was obscure or difficult, but nope, it's "slap a bunch of ware together, get infinite response". Idiocy. Ok i'm better now.
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Jun 2 2011, 10:28 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
That all seems pretty clear, Fortinbras. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Because doing it with *cyberware* is pure evil, KCKitsune. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hehe. Clustering *real* nodes in order to run more IC is fine (although you could also just run them on those nodes and link in, which is the usual method with spiders). Thank you. I ruled that if you are clustering cyberware, then that cyberwaer now "plays an important part in the adventure" not "a passing role" and is no longer subject to being a simple device rating. I just use the sample peripheral devices from Unwired as a base to give it a full compliment of Matrix stats. Same System, lowered Response, like a credstick. This way no one is running around with single cybereyes in their pockets with Responses of 6. Does that seem fair or Draconic? |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:50 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932 |
Take a deep breath. It's Shadowrun. If you do find an exact action, condition, or requirement in the rules, treasure it, especially if you look and you can't find a conflicting action, condition, or requirement somewhere else in the rules. Eyeball it. Wing it. Roll with it. It's not neurosurgery. It's a role playing game in a world that fractally doesn't make sense*. *anything that doesn't make sense is supported by other things that also turn out not to make sense which are supported by other things that.... I understand that, I wasn't directing those comments at you, I was directing them at Fortinbras as he was the one saying that if something wasn't an explicit action it couldn't be done. QUOTE Slaving requires a Subscription.(Unwired p.55) Read again. It says that the slave is linked to the master, it does not say that a subscription, active or otherwise, is required. QUOTE A slave may only be subscribed to one master(same) Also not stated, it says that it doesn't accept any connections that aren't from the master. Presumably if there was more than one master, it would accept connections from more than one master.QUOTE Subscribing to a node is a Complex action(SR4a p.224 & 231) Irrelevant, as a subscription is not required.Unsubscribing to a node is a Simple Action action(SR4a p. 229) When one subscribes to a node, one does so at a particual access level, from public to admin(SR4a p. 225) QUOTE To slave a node requires Admin Access(Unwired p. 53 & 98) p53 makes no mention of slaving, and page 98 indicates that you need security access, not admin access, to slave a node to something, but does not say that the ID that you are slaving it to requires any sort of account at all. It says quite plainly that you can use a riggers account (Presumably security since the section is talking about what different levels of accounts can do, and the rigger account portion is between the basic and admin descriptions) to slave that drone to your commlink. There is no mention of 'slave it to your commlink after booting off the rigger and hacking yourself an admin account'. No, it says that by spoofing a security access ID you can slave the device to your commlink, period. No other requirements. So, thank you for providing that page reference that I'd missed to prove my point. |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:53 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932 |
I ruled that if you are clustering cyberware, then that cyberwaer now "plays an important part in the adventure" not "a passing role" and is no longer subject to being a simple device rating. I just use the sample peripheral devices from Unwired as a base to give it a full compliment of Matrix stats. Same System, lowered Response, like a credstick. This way no one is running around with single cybereyes in their pockets with Responses of 6. Does that seem fair or Draconic? Seems fair to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Although system can't be higher than response as I recall, so that would make a high system/low response device fairly pointless. Unless maybe it is optimized... can you optimize system? |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:57 PM
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#71
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I understand that, I wasn't directing those comments at you, I was directing them at Fortinbras as he was the one saying that if something wasn't an explicit action it couldn't be done. Read again. It says that the slave is linked to the master, it does not say that a subscription, active or otherwise, is required. Also not stated, it says that it doesn't accept any connections that aren't from the master. Presumably if there was more than one master, it would accept connections from more than one master. Irrelevant, as a subscription is not required. From pg. 55 Unwired QUOTE When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept
any Matrix connections from any other node but the master and instantly forwards any connection attempts to the master. |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:58 PM
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#72
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
It can, for peripheral devices. So it'll be okay right up until you cluster. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Slaving should obviously require a subscription. If it's true that the book says it doesn't (or, perhaps, doesn't say it *does*), then it's just one more erroneous Broken Rule to ignore. The fact that it's *the* master seems pretty clear; one master. |
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Jun 2 2011, 10:59 PM
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#73
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
It can, for peripheral devices. So it'll be okay right up until you cluster. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Slaving should obviously require a subscription. If it's true that the book says it doesn't (or, perhaps, doesn't say it *does*), then it's just one more erroneous Broken Rule to ignore. The fact that it's *the* master seems pretty clear; one master. Don't you need a subscription to execute ANY commands on a node? |
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Jun 2 2011, 11:04 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
Read again. It says that the slave is linked to the master, it does not say that a subscription, active or otherwise, is required. You read again. It's the big box in the middle of the page under "Actions Needing Subscription." Also not stated, it says that it doesn't accept any connections that aren't from the master. Presumably if there was more than one master, it would accept connections from more than one master. You said it yourself "the master" not "a master." That means one and only one master. p53 makes no mention of slaving, and page 98 indicates that you need security access, not admin access, to slave a node to something, but does not say that the ID that you are slaving it to requires any sort of account at all. It says quite plainly that you can use a riggers account (Presumably security since the section is talking about what different levels of accounts can do, and the rigger account portion is between the basic and admin descriptions) to slave that drone to your commlink. There is no mention of 'slave it to your commlink after booting off the rigger and hacking yourself an admin account'. No, it says that by spoofing a security access ID you can slave the device to your commlink, period. No other requirements. So, thank you for providing that page reference that I'd missed to prove my point. p. 53 makes note of what admin access can do and what security access can't do. p. 93 says to in order to add, alter or delete accounts(altering being the key one as you must alter it to give it a subscription to a separate node) you need admin access. Nothing is mentioned about security access. I'll ignore that the page is referencing drones and not commlinks, and simply say that the text states it can be done. I've never claimed it can't be done. It simply can't be done with a single action. As much fun as it would be to simply say "I do this." you run into the old Cowboys & Indians problems of having the other guy say "you missed me." That is why the rules are there. To regulate actions accordingly. They have to be followed, else Matrix actions become a series of escalating arguments between people who know computers really well while the rest of us who don't simply throw that aspect out of the game. Then Hacking becomes Decking. And Rule #1 is the decker always dies. |
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Jun 3 2011, 12:48 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932 |
Slaving should obviously require a subscription. If it's true that the book says it doesn't (or, perhaps, doesn't say it *does*), then it's just one more erroneous Broken Rule to ignore. Why? Device A only accepts connections and commands from Device B, why does either device need an active subscription for this to happen? That's like saying a password is only needed if someone else is already logged onto an account. QUOTE p. 93 says to in order to add, alter or delete accounts(altering being the key one as you must alter it to give it a subscription to a separate node) you need admin access. Nothing is mentioned about security access. And I'll say for the millionth time that nowhere does it say that slaving requires an account of any kind. I'll also repeat myself that it says very clearly that a rigger's grade account access via spoofing (security by virtues already explained) can slave a device. You continue to fail utterly to provide a single line from the entire book that says that slaving a device takes more than one action, or requires any kind of account. I've provided evidence directly from the book that says: Security access is good enough to slave a device (drone is the specific example, but a drone is simply a type of device as far as the matrix is concerned). Since security level access can't add/remove/adjust accounts (as you've gone through great pains to point out), this directly indicates that an account is not required for master/slave relationship. You've failed to show where a subscription is required for the master/slave relationship. I'll concede that a subscription is required to do much of anything besides send single commands, but it isn't necessarily required for the relationship to exist. QUOTE As much fun as it would be to simply say "I do this." you run into the old Cowboys & Indians problems of having the other guy say "you missed me." And as much fun as it is to simply say "This is totally required even though there is no evidence for it book, and evidence to the contrary" you run into the old Lack of Evidence problem. That is why the rules are there. To regulate actions accordingly. They have to be followed, else Matrix actions become a series of escalating arguments between people who know computers really well while the rest of you who don't simply throw that aspect out of the game.Then Hacking becomes Decking. And Rule #1 is the decker always dies. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th February 2025 - 08:07 PM |
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