[X] My Assistant

[Bushw4cker]

Are there any rules on multiple remote fired vehicle weapons? Example, a car with 2 front mounted concealed LMG weapon mounts.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

I'd imagine it uses the normal rules on firing multiple weapons or using multiple attacks in general. DP is split, then modifiers (such as visibility) are applied to each DP separately.

[Headshot_Joe]

Hmmm, but if they are fixed position, both aimed the same direction, and both fired by the same control, what then? Are they considered a "weapon system" and the damage stacks? Obviously, in this case they could only shoot something the car was aligned with, so the uses would be sort of limited to chase combat or death race scenarios, but it would be useful in those cases. If there's a rule for this, I'm coating a GMC Bulldog in MGs all facing forward, loaded with HE Explosive, and setting them all up on the same trigger. Paint it red and get a custom plate that says "MO DAKA". And use it to delete corp security cars from existence.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Well, if they're fixed position then only one is generally going to be hitting unless the target is fairly big. Would be limited to narrow bursts though (Well, suppose you could shoot during a turn, but it'd make keeping up more difficult). Honestly I'm not even sure what you would roll to hit if you couldn't track with the guns at all, it wouldn't really be gunnery as you wouldn't be aiming with the guns, you'd be aiming with your ability to drive the car.

Hmm, maybe you could have each net hit equal 2 extra damage instead of 1 to represent all the extra bullets flying around?

Really, despite the fixed, I think the rules would still technically treat it as two separate weapons that need to use a split DP. Kind of like how you need to when using two guns, even if you keep your hands together so that both guns should be tracking exactly the same.

Hmm, suddenly had a thought of someone actually taping two guns together and setting them up to fire at the same time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

There really aren't rules for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

There really aren't rules for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sure there is, just not in Shadowrun. It's called "Car Wars". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Well, yes. Go play Car Wars, it's great!

[Epicedion]

Treat them like drones.

[Yerameyahu]

In what way? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unrelated: to what extent *do* parallel guns aim at the same thing? I mean, anti-aircraft guns are one thing, but… inherent wide bursts?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

In what way? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unrelated: to what extent *do* parallel guns aim at the same thing? I mean, anti-aircraft guns are one thing, but… inherent wide bursts?

Depends on how they are set up and how big the target is. If they are perfectly parallel, they hit however far apart they are physically placed, which means a target smaller than the distance between the two guns might actually be harder to hit because you have to aim off-center for one gun or the other to actually hit anything. For targets larger than the distance between the two guns, you are basically just throwing out twice as many bullets, perhaps giving the benefit of both narrow and wide burst.

It really brings up the same question as "What happens if I tape two guns side by side, and set them to both fire on a single trigger pull" which the game really isn't equipped to deal with, sort of like it isn't equipped to deal with someone wearing shock gloves and punching someone, or mixing ammo types in a clip.

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I figured. It just doesn't seem like a good idea. *Maybe* some kind of Wide Burst effect, at large enough ranges.

So, let's assume flex mounts instead. We're in the realm of house rules, of course. To me, that'd be two guns individually aiming at the same target; right? Just like a humanoid with 2 SMGs, as you mentioned at the beginning. What about more than 2? Keep splitting the pool, I'd assume.

Any other fun, simple, and balanced options?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yes, just like someone with more than 2 hands splits their DP into more than 2 new DP when using multiple weapons.

As for the original setup, I think if I was GMing I'd have the setup impose a -2 penalty to firing at targets smaller than the difference between the guns (to represent having to aim off-center) and give an extra point of damage for every 2 net hits (Maybe 1 net hit, would have to see how 2 worked out first).

[Yerameyahu]

Do you mean firing effectively larger bursts? Double burst is 5 Base DV + 2 burst + 3 burst = 10 DV (not for beating armor, as normal)? So a double full would be 5 + 9 + 10 = 24. That's… almost reasonable, with a little aiming penalty, sure. Assuming we're talking Narrow, of course. Wide would almost instantly drop their dodge to 0, so who cares. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The really powerful thing would be Wide+Narrow, which is why it wouldn't be allowed.

I have a feeling this would get used against barriers a lot, which is probably fine. Just count all the bullets.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

No, I mean instead of getting 1 extra DV per net hit as normal, you'd get 1.5 (or possibly 2) DV per net hit to represent the extra bullets. I think simply treating it as a burst with twice as many shots being fired gets too large too fast, it's far too much incentive to set up a system like this. I might also impose some sort of cap on the DP based on the driving ability of the driver, or an outright penalty for not being able to aim, or base the attack test purely on the driver's driving skill.

And no, you couldn't do wide + narrow because whatever you did with one gun would happen with the other gun.

[Yerameyahu]

Mine's simpler, no one likes 3/2 systems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) What are we comparing against, though? Against a single attack, it's stronger, but *less* than twice as strong, even at Full Burst. HV or minigun rates get closer to double, but still don't hit it. Against 2 attacks, it's actually weaker (although the dynamics of pool-splitting and all that are complicated).

With 3+ guns, it does get different real fast, though. :/ Still, it's only doing (tons) of stun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yeah, I know fractions confuse people (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) but it is how I'd do it, with halves rounding down in this case. And yeah, I think we're comparing against a single attack or a split pool for two guns, in which case it is stronger than either one. It is superior to the single attack because it does more damage (obviously) and it is roughly even with a split pool because you don't suffer negative modifiers twice, which may or may not negate the lost 5 or so DV, not to mention you have a smaller chance of missing outright.

So yeah, guess your system works, but it seems a bit too good for having fixed guns. I think I'd use your system for damage, but add in penalties or some other oddities for the difficulty of aiming due to being fixed.

[Bushw4cker]

I think the easiest thing to do would just make one attack, add +2 dice to hit, for firing 2 LMGs and target gets -2 to dodge.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, I mean instead of getting 1 extra DV per net hit as normal, you'd get 1.5 (or possibly 2) DV per net hit to represent the extra bullets. I think simply treating it as a burst with twice as many shots being fired gets too large too fast, it's far too much incentive to set up a system like this. I might also impose some sort of cap on the DP based on the driving ability of the driver, or an outright penalty for not being able to aim, or base the attack test purely on the driver's driving skill.

And no, you couldn't do wide + narrow because whatever you did with one gun would happen with the other gun.

Just use them like a Minigun. Simple, and the rules are already in place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[sabs]

With 2 extra mod points, you could mount them as flexible mounts, giving yuo a 90 degree field of fire (horizontal, and some give vertically)

[CanRay]

Or just fire one MG until it's dry, then fire the other one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or just fire one MG until it's dry, then fire the other one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Radical Concept there Canray, absolutely radical... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

Or load different ammo into each MG. Standard ammo in one when someone cuts you off, AV Ammo in the other for when someone SLOTS you off.

[Mäx]

So now that we have seen some options for handling 2 burst fire weapons, ill have to ask about handling multiple non burst weapons.
Like for example a fighter bomber with 11 fixed gauss cannons firing them all with the same trigger pull (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[hobgoblin]

just add up the rounds fired, subtract 1, apply that as the recoil modifier for the attack...

as long as your not mixing weapons or ammo types, it will just be a very long burst.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

just add up the rounds fired, subtract 1, apply that as the recoil modifier for the attack...

as long as your not mixing weapons or ammo types, it will just be a very long burst.

Indeed. Multiple weapons firing simultaneously really shouldn't be any different mechanically than one weapon firing multiple times in rapid succession.