Adept Metamagic Options

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Instead of derailing another thread, I figured I'd take my response here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

On the other hand, I also don't see the problem with the 'initiation gives PP instead of metamagic' option since there are only about 5 metamagics even available to adepts, much less actually useful ones, and the cost of a PP otherwise is beyond reason.

I really do not get Why people continue to perpetuate this myth...

I count 15 Applicable Adept Metamagics, Two of which may be taken multiple times....

Basic Metamagics:
Adept Centering
Attunement - Animals (Multiple Times)
Attunement - Items (Multiple Times)
Centering
Cognition
Divining (If Adept has Astral Perception)
Flexible Signature
Masking
Psychometry (If Adept has Astral Perception)
Sensing
Somatic Control

Advanced Metamagics:
Empower Animals
Extended Masking (Weapon Foci only, obviously)
Flux
Infusion

Okay, so maybe it isn't five with a few good ones, maybe it is five good ones. Or maybe I shouldn't say good, but that don't require a narrow specialty.

I'll certainly give you adept centering as being useful to nearly any adept, and masking as useful to many.

Centering hardly affects anything, as the only time an adept has to deal with drain is from using attribute boost, which in all honesty would take concentrated effort to actually cause enough drain to not be automatically resisted, much less make an adept think of getting centering. I would barely consider that available to an adept, much less actually useful.

Extended masking might be useful to the adept if they happen to use a weapon focus, but that is a minority of adepts I think.

Animal Attunement and Empowered Animals are both exceedingly niche metamagics. Infusion is actually quite good now that I notice the part where you get 0.5 per initiation grade. Flux can be useful in limited circumstances (more limited for an adept than a magician, because they don't have as many foci and don't need to worry about their wards and similar things).

Item attunement can certinaly be useful to a number of adepts.

Cognition is another fairly limited market sort of metamagic (especially with the 2 CT prep time). Somatic control is also limited, but likely less so than Cognition, though it does still suffer from the long set-up time.

Divining and Psychometry are both about as niche as the animal based metamagics.

Sensing is another highly niche ability.

Flexibile signatures only apply to signatures, which adepts don't leave, so it isn't something that an adept would actually take.

So, of your 15 there are:
2 useless metamagics (Centering, Flexible signature)
6 extreme niche metamagics (Divining, Psychometry, Sensing, Animal Attunement, Empowered Animal, Flux)
2 fairly limited metamagics (Cognition, Extended Masking)
3 somewhat limited metamagics (Somatic Control, Item Attunement, Masking)
2 generally universally good metamagics (Adept Centering, Infusion)

So yeah, I'll give you maybe 5ish metamagics that a normal adept would actually want, depending on their build. I'm not saying any of them are useless (except for the useless ones), and niche ones like animal attunement can be very desirable if you happen to be playing a particular kind of adept. Mages on the other hand have tons of (honestly, more useful) metamagics to pick from, yet initiation costs the same amount. Mages generally get initiation purely for the metamagic, while adepts generally get initiation purely so that they can get another point of magic for another PP to spend. I also figure PP is an adept's main form of advancement, just like cyber is a sammy's main form of advancement, except that for a sammy, they have to spend nuyen and can still spend karma on increasing skills and such, while an adept is stuck choosing between another PP and a swath of skills.

I suppose the counter to that is that adepts can cyber themselves out with the spare nuyen, but it is a much more costly experience due to the loss of magic (and thus PP) accompanied by doing so.

[BishopMcQ]

Ghost--I've played several adepts and GM'd for dozens more. I think that the perception of what is "useful" versus "limited" depends on the campaign setting, as much as the character build. I've seen several combat adepts pick up metamagics from your Severe Niche category because they wanted to be involved in more than just the ass-kicking. They wanted to be involved with the investigation and legwork stages. Flexible Signature was a common one used by a Stealth Adept who wanted to change her signature when she used Distance Strike--she got good enough that she started leaving a trail to an enemy by forging the signature.

If you feel that Adepts are underpowered and need some love, by all means use the Optional Rule to allow for Power Points at initiation instead of metamagics. The Way of the Adept also has a slew of new options to push the power level of Adepts up a notch.

I think it comes down to the player--if they believe that a metamagic is useless or not, they're right. The way they play their character will determine what makes abilities useful to them.

[Machiavelli]

I cannot point it out more that Bishop already did. If an adept is nothing more for you than a combat character, you listing is correct. But because adepts are way more than that....

I play a mystic adept with focus on magic and the next time i buy a power-point will not be for things like "combat sense", "critical strike" or "increased skill (automatics)". I will buy things like "linguistics", "photographic memory" etc. This is not about efficiency, it is about filling the char. with life. Some things simply fit better....

[Irion]

Well, to the core question:
There is no problem with the "powerpoint for initiation" rules as long as you do not allow to directly purchuse powerpoints for 15 Karma.
Since this would be just a too good.

This would finally lead to adepts having powerpoints far beyond the essence of the sam.
And a lot of things would be much cheaper to buy with powerpoints than with Karma.

Getting a skill from 4 to 5 is 10 Karma or 0,25 Power points. If a powerpoint is worth 15 Karma, you might see the problem.

(With way of the adept is there any reason not to take a mystic adept, put 0 points for magic just in order to get counterspelling+ improved ability counterspelling+ shielding?)

[Dez384]

Well, to the core question:
There is no problem with the "powerpoint for initiation" rules as long as you do not allow to directly purchuse powerpoints for 15 Karma.
Since this would be just a too good.

This would finally lead to adepts having powerpoints far beyond the essence of the sam.
And a lot of things would be much cheaper to buy with powerpoints than with Karma.

Getting a skill from 4 to 5 is 10 Karma or 0,25 Power points. If a powerpoint is worth 15 Karma, you might see the problem.

(With way of the adept is there any reason not to take a mystic adept, put 0 points for magic just in order to get counterspelling+ improved ability counterspelling+ shielding?)

You are speaking of learning additional metamagic for 15 karma, yes? That is not the case for powerpoint initiation. With powerpoint intiation, you gain a powerpoint rather than a metamagic feat in that instance only, not every case in which you would gain a metamagic. Even with powerpoint initiation, the cost of a powerpoint doesn't become too cheapened, since you have to increase your magic as well, eventually.

With your mystic adept question, it could be possible to game the system by being a mystic adept with 0 magic. However, if i recall correctly, the mystic adept quality says that the quality should only be taken if the character is intended to be played as a mystic adept.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Youy know, Ghost_in_the_System, I really have nothing else to add to BisopMcQ's and Machiavelli's thoughts that they have not stated already. A Metamagic is only as useful as the Character makes it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, those niche ones are exactly that. It doesn't mean no one would ever take them, it means they don't have general appeal.

[Makki]

if you have Astral Sight, you want Psychometry. So this metamagic is as niche as the adept power. Note: "wanting" doesn't necessarily mean "getting"

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Nah, those niche ones are exactly that. It doesn't mean no one would ever take them, it means they don't have general appeal.

Yes, thank you, which is exactly what I said in my OP. Yes, some adepts will take them, and some adepts will really like them, but the number that will look at them and go "Why would I ever want that?" is significantly greater than the number that go "Oh man, that is exactly what I need to give my character the boost/flavor." I'm looking for.

And FYI, I wasn't basing adepts purely on combat when I was reviewing the metamagics. I was evaluating them based on the majority of the adepts being one of the following: Unarmed Combat, Armed Melee Combat, Ranged Combat, Face, Technical, Stealth, Driver or Athelete.

Any of them are going to want adept centering because it reduces penalties, and infusion because it lets them give significant temporary boosts to their powers. Most may want either cognition or somatic control (though not likely both) so long as they don't mind the 2 CT activation time. About half could make good use of the Item Attunement. Any could make use of masking, but you may not particularly care if people can assence you or not. Extended masking is really only good for the armed melee combat, and perhaps those that use item attunement (don't know if those show up or not), so is an even more limited field than either of those metamagics.

After that everything has potential use, but is, exactly as I said, a niche. Yes, some adepts might get it, but the vast majority aren't going to be interested. I wasn't aware that adept powers of any kind created a signature (and can't find any reference for it), but if so, I suppose flexible signature should be upgraded from useless to extreme niche.

I still stand by my original statement that there are roughly 5 metamagics that any particular adept is likely to want. That's not to say there aren't adepts who might want more, just like there are adepts that may want niche metamagics, but for the large majority, that is the case, and that is what considerations need to be focused on.

[BishopMcQ]

I wasn't aware that adept powers of any kind created a signature (and can't find any reference for it),

It is on p. 192, SR4A. The very first line under Astral Signatures "Magical Skills and Abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected by them..." Improved Reflexes, only affects the character, but Elemental Strike, Distance Strike, Commanding Voice etc all affect others, leaving a signature.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wasn't aware that adept powers of any kind created a signature (and can't find any reference for it), but if so, I suppose flexible signature should be upgraded from useless to extreme niche.

In fact, this quote implies that use of ANY MAgical Ability leaves a Signature.

ASTRAL SIGNATURES
Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, which is detectable using assensing. An astral signature is the magical "fingerprint" of the Awakened creature who created it. A signature lasts for a number of hours equal to a magical efect's Force after the effect ends. Foci and other magical items (like magical lodges) always contain the astral signature of their owner (or owners).

In this case, I would equate Force = Magic Attribute for the Adept. And Any Effect affects (whether you or a target) something.

EDIT... DAMN, Ninja'd by BishopMcQ.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Hmm, it also says magical skills create signatures, so that means when you look at an object and try and determine its magical significance through the arcana skill, you create a signature. Still, I'll accept that things like distance strike certainly could leave a signature, but you're still looking at it being a extremely niche metamagic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hmm, it also says magical skills create signatures, so that means when you look at an object and try and determine its magical significance through the arcana skill, you create a signature. Still, I'll accept that things like distance strike certainly could leave a signature, but you're still looking at it being a extremely niche metamagic.

Arcana is not a Magical Skill, per se, in that it does not use the Magic Attribute at all.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

True, but it does fall under the listing of 'magical skills' and thus would be defined (as far as I can imagine) as a magical skill.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

True, but it does fall under the listing of 'magical skills' and thus would be defined (as far as I can imagine) as a magical skill.

Gray Area, but possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Especially since you can get Arcana as a Skill, and Not have any Magical Ability at all. How do you leave a signature when you are not even awakened?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Gray Area, but possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Especially since you can get Arcana as a Skill, and Not have any Magical Ability at all. How do you leave a signature when you are not even awakened?

Exactly. So while it says magical skills and abilities leave a signature, what it means is that some magical skills and abilities leave a trace. Assenssing is perhaps an even better example. Do you leave a signature on someone when you try and assense them? I don't really think so, but it obviously contradicts what the rules say. So do adept powers leave signatures? Who knows, it is up to each group to decide that really, and anything other than that isn't going to be something you can reach a consensus on via the forums because there isn't anything that specifically says otherwise. The best 'yes' has is the line you quoted, and the best 'no' has is along the lines of the points I brought up.

Still, as I've said, I'll concede for the sake of argument that adept powers might leave signatures, and if so, flexible signature has a niche for some adepts, but it is far from a generally useful metamagic.