Improving Cyberware, Because ware shouldn't become obsolete Options

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Well, you still have touch spells. Also, can you cast through eyes of the pack?

[HunterHerne]

Same goes for mages actually.
Since there is NO WAY to stop a mage from casting, he either gets a bullet to the back of the head or he gets drugged into oblivion and kept in a coma.

Not quite true. Magemanacles do exist. When the mage starts shaping mana it gives them an electric shock that disrupts the casting. It also has some natural earth within so the mage can't freely Astral Project (As everyone knows, the Earth has a astral form, and while it can be pushed through, the mage would take time to do that. Time the guards can use to actively notice the attempt.) I've also heard of practices involving implanting ware into mages who commit heinous crimes to reduce, or eliminate their magical ability.

[Stahlseele]

Magemasks are pretty good at stopping casting... can't cast at what you can't see...

Would Astral Perception not get around this?

Not quite true. Magemanacles do exist. When the mage starts shaping mana it gives them an electric shock that disrupts the casting. It also has some natural earth within so the mage can't freely Astral Project (As everyone knows, the Earth has a astral form, and while it can be pushed through, the mage would take time to do that. Time the guards can use to actively notice the attempt.) I've also heard of practices involving implanting ware into mages who commit heinous crimes to reduce, or eliminate their magical ability.

Furthermore, they don't really stop the casting or disrupt it, because there is no way to do that . .
So if the mage can take the shock without too much trouble, he will still be able to cast spells . . .
And just for the sake of argument, if the spell casting is stopped, he usually still can summon something to eat you.
Or to possess himself.

Also, yes, implanting something into the mage to get rid of his magic . . sure . . uhuh . . yeah . . no . . right . .
"he tried to escape, we had to shoot him" < = easier and MUCH cheaper!
And if the mage has no sin, then nobody will complain anyway . .
You are getting assigned a criminal SIN by lonestar.
Lonestar "forgets" to do so and you never existed, so they can not have killed you.

[HunterHerne]

Well, you still have touch spells. Also, can you cast through eyes of the pack?

Assuming your GM reads/enacts the fluff, I believe I read somewhere that the only sense that actually creates a magical link is sight (well, astral sight too, but that's an awakened characteristic anyway) even touch doesn't create the link, but is necessary only to the spell. It sounds odd to me, yeah, and I prefer to allow touch to create said link, but that's how I understand it.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Not quite true. Magemanacles do exist. When the mage starts shaping mana it gives them an electric shock that disrupts the casting. It also has some natural earth within so the mage can't freely Astral Project (As everyone knows, the Earth has a astral form, and while it can be pushed through, the mage would take time to do that. Time the guards can use to actively notice the attempt.) I've also heard of practices involving implanting ware into mages who commit heinous crimes to reduce, or eliminate their magical ability.

I'm fairly sure those only prevent astral projection, not casting of spells. I'll double check though...

And to my knowledge, none of those things prevent summoning.

Would Astral Perception not get around this?

No, astral perception can't go through solid objects, so would be stopped by the mask. You might be able to see an aura if someone puts their hand against the front of your mask though, but unless they were dual natured, you wouldn't be able to cast a spell since you only have an astral LoS to them, not a physical one.

Edit: Hmm, looks like the magecuffs kind of go back and forth. The fluff seems to indicate projection and perception only, but the rules say that any magic activates them, so they certainly should work on spell casting and even summoning. The mage mask doesn't prevent summoning or astral projection beyond forcing a Willpower + Intuition (4) test. But since it lists no penalty for failure, there isn't much reason a mage couldn't attempt it every IP and eventually succeed.

[Stahlseele]

Assuming your GM reads/enacts the fluff, I believe I read somewhere that the only sense that actually creates a magical link is sight (well, astral sight too, but that's an awakened characteristic anyway) even touch doesn't create the link, but is necessary only to the spell. It sounds odd to me, yeah, and I prefer to allow touch to create said link, but that's how I understand it.

Touch spells work because you cast them on yourself and you always have a magical connection to yourself.
So cast at yourself, then touch someone to get the spell to go zapity.

[HunterHerne]

Would Astral Perception not get around this?

No. Physical objects appear as washed out, but discernable objects that don't impede movement, but do block visibility on the astral.

Furthermore, they don't really stop the casting or disrupt it, because there is no way to do that . .
So if the mage can take the shock without too much trouble, he will still be able to cast spells . . .
And just for the sake of argument, if the spell casting is stopped, he usually still can summon something to eat you.
Or to possess himself.

Also, yes, implanting something into the mage to get rid of his magic . . sure . . uhuh . . yeah . . no . . right . .
"he tried to escape, we had to shoot him" < = easier and MUCH cheaper!
And if the mage has no sin, then nobody will complain anyway . .
You are getting assigned a criminal SIN by lonestar.
Lonestar "forgets" to do so and you never existed, so they can not have killed you.

You're right. It would be easier. And unless it's a really upstanding officer, I doubt a SINless, and dangerous, runner would make it to lock up. Unless, of course, said runner was involved, and could be proven (even illegally) to have been involved, in a high profile case. Besides, I didn't necessarily mean Lonestar, or expensive ware (Not that there is much that isn't expensive...). There is also the possibility of the mage going into volunteered lab assistant status, as well.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Oh, and keep in mind that the shock on the cuffs is 12S(e) which is going to put just about anything except a dwarf/troll hybrid on the ground.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, you still have touch spells. Also, can you cast through eyes of the pack?

And assuming you are in a Mage Mask, who are you exactly touching?
What Eyes of the Pack? If you refer to a Spell, you must still be able to see the "Pack" that you are effecting, if I remember correctly (or at least be able to touch them). And no, you still could not cast through their senses.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Would Astral Perception not get around this?

Nope, becasue you cannot pierce the MageMask even in the Astral, as it blocks LOS.

Furthermore, they don't really stop the casting or disrupt it, because there is no way to do that . .
So if the mage can take the shock without too much trouble, he will still be able to cast spells . . .
And just for the sake of argument, if the spell casting is stopped, he usually still can summon something to eat you.
Or to possess himself.

Also, yes, implanting something into the mage to get rid of his magic . . sure . . uhuh . . yeah . . no . . right . .
"he tried to escape, we had to shoot him" < = easier and MUCH cheaper!
And if the mage has no sin, then nobody will complain anyway . .
You are getting assigned a criminal SIN by lonestar.
Lonestar "forgets" to do so and you never existed, so they can not have killed you.

Yes, all viable possible angles. Put the Mage in a Ward, though, and it is possible he cannot summon anything viable, and MageManacles would tend to stop such things anyways. Are you not going to put the mage in a warded location, likely underground? The Prison Systems I would design for mages would include such things.

And yes, if the Mage is without SIN, he may find himself quite dead, though that would be a waste of a perfectly good deniable asset that you could coerce into your service.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

And assuming you are in a Mage Mask, who are you exactly touching?

That son of a slitch that put you in the mask (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

What Eyes of the Pack? If you refer to a Spell, you must still be able to see the "Pack" that you are effecting, if I remember correctly (or at least be able to touch them). And no, you still could not cast through their senses.

Yes, I mean the spell which is touch range and so does not require you to see your pack at all. You just need to touch them for the initial casting and then maintain it. But yeah, found the line, no targeting through the sense, ah well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That son of a slitch that put you in the mask (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ahh, I see, you actually thought you were awake when he masked and manacled you... Hmmm.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I still don't think it's reasonable for a professional criminal mercenary to not keep track of PAN devices unexpectedly removed, but okay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It isn't *impossible*.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I still don't think it's reasonable for a professional criminal mercenary to not keep track of PAN devices unexpected removed, but okay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It isn't *impossible*.

Agreed... After all, a Shadowrunner lives by his Equipment. To assume that he just doesn't care is a BIG assumption. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Or more like he maybe forgot something from his list of 500 things that he always apparently does when he got his new commlink after having to ditch his old one.

I mean, if you think about it, there are a ton of things that every shadowrunner likely should do for various reasons, so I don't think it is too unreasonable that some of the things can occasionally be forgotten, or simply be too obscure or irrelevant to be used yet. For example, before the first time a runner loses a piece of equipment unknowingly, they likely wouldn't consider how handy it would be to have a really big popup when something goes missing from the PAN unexpectedly.

And also, as I said, something could have been taken, but still be connected to the PAN thanks to routing happening automatically.

[HunterHerne]

It is possible that it could be in your PAN once it is removed, but the idea is that when putting Skinlink on it, you disabled the wireless transmitter. If it isn't transmitting, it won't be in your PAN. I appreciate that you are trying to help my argument, but that doesn't seem to work to me. How I see things isn't necessarily how other people see them. It is ultimately up to the GM to decide, and the player to react to.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Oh yeah, good point, forgot we were talking about skinlinked devices for a moment. In that case they most likely would drop from the PAN right away.

[suoq]

Just wanted to apologize for earlier. Realized that I cared to much about trying to get people to understand and that's not something under my control.

[LurkerOutThere]

Just an inference based partly on how society is going already, and the little fiction I've read. That, of course is general, and more likely in upper class society, but it's always been that way.

Really, because I've seen the opposite trend, maybe i go to better clubs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For what it's worth if my read on skinlink is correct my guestimation is it's somehow modulating your bodies bioelectic to send the necessary signals. If that is the case it should actually work in exactly the opposite way from what's described as we're talking about an electric field that doesn't really have an appreciable power source and is literally too low to measure. Now imagine what happens when that field is exposed to even other casual electric fields in the enviroment, it would be disrupted. Lets not even mind what happens when sucha field would be exposed to a field whose intention o create jamming.

But let's table that for a moment and presume that science has bypassed those hurdles as well as the air, skin, skull, fluid, interface barrier necessary to make trodes work on the same level as a physical connection. My question is once we've gone with that assumption we can start to look at what else could science do logically rather then just making sure the mage and the adept doesn't suffer any downsides from their career choices. Effectively what trodes and smartlink do under 4E is a fiber optic pipe connection over wireless. My question is within the realm of that engineering what would the fiber optic pipe now be carrying. For me that makes me think that the fiber optic pipe (datajack) should be twice as effective, essentially moving twice as fast. Since making them move literally twice as fast would be hard to reconcile without doing funny things with IP's i feel the best fix is to give them essentially double the actions. Most matrix actions eat up a complex action anyway.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

You still run into the problem of that giving a huge advantage over matrix entities such as sprites, though I suppose you could give this bonus to all matrix entities as well, but there might be some trouble reconciling with physical interactions through the matrix (A pilot would give a drone 6 complex and 6 free actions a turn, a skilled enough rigger could give it 10 and 10. A skilled enough TM... is scary x.x)

[LurkerOutThere]

You still run into the problem of that giving a huge advantage over matrix entities such as sprites, though I suppose you could give this bonus to all matrix entities as well, but there might be some trouble reconciling with physical interactions through the matrix (A pilot would give a drone 6 complex and 6 free actions a turn, a skilled enough rigger could give it 10 and 10. A skilled enough TM... is scary x.x)

Only if you see that as a problem, personally i believe that a dedicated hacker should be better then a sprite, just having a datajack won't make you better then a sprite without the skills to back it up. At the high end for AI's and free sprites it might be a problem.

[redwulf25]

Let me give it a try, Yerameyahu...

How about a Smartlink
Glasses with Skinlink, Smartlink, and an Image Link in the Glasses, Linked to a Skinlinked Smartpistol.
vs.
Internal Smartlink/Imagelinks in Natural or Cybereyes, Datajack with Skinlink (Maynot be necessary if you skinlink the CyberEyes), and a Skinlinked Smartpistol...

Cost variance is significant between the External Mods and the Internal Mods. External Mods can be lost, taken, while internal ones cannot. Seems balanced to me, but maybe Suoq disagrees?

Also, as pointed out in another thread a while back, the skinlinked version lacks DNI and thus can't eject your clip as a free action.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

It makes IC a total joke though.

[redwulf25]

Anyone who can take away your external mod can take away your internal mod. It's MUCH more beneficial to the character to have the mod taken away be external. I'd rather it be taken away than removed with an ice cream scoop.

It's a damn good pick pocket who can scoop my implanted comlink out of my head without me noticing.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Also, as pointed out in another thread a while back, the skinlinked version lacks DNI and thus can't eject your clip as a free action.

It lacks DNI unless you also have a skinlinked trode.