[X] My Assistant

[Irion]

@Mäx
So why are you making one order mandatory?
Why can't I get muscle augmentation 3 (used), a pair of cybereys, a muscle augmentation 3 (used) and after that get myself the adept quality for a magic of 1?
Is there any rule which says I can't? Because it is stated perfectly clear, that I may pick qualities at any time I choose.

[Dakka Dakka]

@Mäx
So why are you making one order mandatory?
Why can't I get muscle augmentation 3 (used), a pair of cybereys, a muscle augmentation 3 (used) and after that get myself the adept quality for a magic of 1?
Is there any rule which says I can't? Because it is stated perfectly clear, that I may pick qualities at any time I choose.

I'm pretty sure that even in KarmaGen all your final stats are calculated at the end. So you bought(with the quality) MAG 1. You lost at least 1.54 Essence due to ware. The finished character has an Essence of 5.4 and MAG 0 and is burned out.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Are you also now using cybereyes instead of skinlinked goggles?

Actually, Yes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Actually, Yes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's weird, since there's no compelling mechanic to make that choice sufficiently attractive, which translates into no compelling IC reason to make it.

Cybereyes and ears stopped working as an option when cheap equivalents were introduced. You've always been able to replicate some of their functions with gear, but always at some functional penalty. Equivalent functionality means the cheaper option wins. Go against simple economics if you want, but don't pretend that it's pragmatic.

Now the only reason to take them is as replacements if you can't get cloned parts.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's weird, since there's no compelling mechanic to make that choice sufficiently attractive, which translates into no compelling IC reason to make it.

Cybereyes and ears stopped working as an option when cheap equivalents were introduced. You've always been able to replicate some of their functions with gear, but always at some functional penalty. Equivalent functionality means the cheaper option wins. Go against simple economics if you want, but don't pretend that it's pragmatic.

Now the only reason to take them is as replacements if you can't get cloned parts.

And yet, as a Mage, I can now have multiple Forms of Visual sense (IR, Lowlight, etc) with my eyes that I may now cast spells through, which you cannot use Glasses or goggles for...
And yet, as a Mundane, I can now have multiple Forms of Visual sense (IR, Lowlight, etc) with my eyes that I cannot easily be deprived of.

So what if it costs an insignificant amount essence and a bit more money. Big deal. Many Character's will not care about such insignificant things.

And as a Note, They are not equivalent. Glasses and earbuds can be easily removed, damaged or destroyed, while the implanted versions are much more robust, may be indistinguishable from the Normal parts, and no one will care it they set of a Scanner. They are Ubiquitous. Cheaper rarely means better.

Simple Economics? Please... Are you going to buy a poroduct Once per year for half the Cost of the Expensive One, or are you going to buy the more Expensive one that will last 10 Times as long? I know which route I will take. I do not like purchasing something multiple times, just because it is a cheap piEce of crap. Give me durability every time.

[Irion]

Cybereyes are quite a no brainer for mages since google do not work for casting and astral perception is great but has a rats tail of disadvantages.
Still would need a google to read a sign in the dark but you would need to but the googles down to cast a spell. Fucked up.

Then they are just dirt cheap.

[Ascalaphus]

For some tools, keeping them as gear makes fair sense - all manner of scanners are just fine as handhelds. But I'm not too happy about trodes being basically a better way to do the same as a datajack, or goggles making cybereyes obsolete.

So what would be good IG reasons for cyberware to be good? Then we can translate those IG reasons to OOC rules.

* Trodes could fall off, or get torn off in combat; someone could smear out the pattern on your nanopaste trodes. Maybe they need to be reapplied every couple of hours if you're sweating a lot?

* Maybe trode-DNI could be vulnerable to jamming? They're transmitting and receiving very faint electromagnetic signals from your brain. I think that could be jammed, or even burnt out with an EMP. (I hold that radio antennas, being electromagnetic-based, should always be somewhat vulnerable to EMP; particularly if they're small).

The big draw of a datajack over trodes would simply be reliability in field conditions. Trodes are fine at home, but if you're infiltrating in the wild, a datajack is just less likely to fail when you need it.

Cybereyes:
* If iris ID is more prevalent, then that mod that allows you to fake irises would come into play often enough, and I don't think contacts or glasses can really fake that one.
* Maybe zooming in with Image Magnification would be slower with glasses, because you need to actually access some sort of controls, while a cybereye moves really really fast (like real eyesight)?

Cyberlimbs/Torso
* If a significant part of your body isn't organic anymore, maybe all kinds of splash poison weapons have a reduced chance to penetrate into your metabolism?
* Maybe cyberlimbs should have custom armor options to protect yourself against various elemental damage types? Such as getting fireproof arms, letting you actually reach into a flame without injury?
* More elegant rules for combining cyberlimbs with a CCU would be nice..

[Irion]

* If a significant part of your body isn't organic anymore, maybe all kinds of splash poison weapons have a reduced chance to penetrate into your metabolism?

Why not just roll a W6. If the number is smaller than the present cyberparts, the poison does not affect you?

[Dakka Dakka]

If you start there you should continue with worse results, when the poison hits. There is a lot less mass for the same dose of poison.

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka
This would lead to far. (There are poisons which scale very good with mass and there are some which don't)
Your general resistance to poison is body.
(Yes, this is kind of silly with cyberware)
But the question was: Making cyber better and not making the system realistic.

[Epicedion]

And yet, as a Mage, I can now have multiple Forms of Visual sense (IR, Lowlight, etc) with my eyes that I may now cast spells through, which you cannot use Glasses or goggles for...
And yet, as a Mundane, I can now have multiple Forms of Visual sense (IR, Lowlight, etc) with my eyes that I cannot easily be deprived of.

So what if it costs an insignificant amount essence and a bit more money. Big deal. Many Character's will not care about such insignificant things.

And as a Note, They are not equivalent. Glasses and earbuds can be easily removed, damaged or destroyed, while the implanted versions are much more robust, may be indistinguishable from the Normal parts, and no one will care it they set of a Scanner. They are Ubiquitous. Cheaper rarely means better.

Simple Economics? Please... Are you going to buy a poroduct Once per year for half the Cost of the Expensive One, or are you going to buy the more Expensive one that will last 10 Times as long? I know which route I will take. I do not like purchasing something multiple times, just because it is a cheap piEce of crap. Give me durability every time.

And cybereyes can get damaged, too. There's just no longer an explicit system for losing body part functionality. Basing a rant on 'cheap flimsy crap' is disingenuous. There's no reason to expect to lose eyewear (much of which can be handled optically instead of electronically) at a much higher rate than cybereyes, especially with the materials strength of things in SR.

As a mage, 'insignificant' essence loss is still essence loss. It's not a renewable resource.

[Vuron]

I'm not sure why you couldn't get optical subsystems in your goggles rather than electronic systems. If the technology exists for optical cybereyes you'd definitely have the ability to make optical goggles.

I think part of the power issue is that while cost of cyber has gone down to the point where adepts and mages can field critical cyber if needed many of the critical items for a mundane build are still extremely expensive from an essence perspective even if you go with alpha or betaware. Qualities can help reduce the cost but many of the cool qualities are roughly as expensive as being an adept and being an adept can net you some nice toys.

In my mind cyber IP boosters are the major culprit with cyberlimbs close behind. Even at betaware essence discounts wired reflexes are still incredibly costly in terms of your essence pool and going with synaptic booster 2 will eat up a large percentage of your starting nuyen. Combat drugs or the various awakened IP boosters (spells and adept powers) can negate much of that speed advantage and awakened have the benefit of having no effective cap on their potential power level. Most samurai don't really have that luxury unless they get rebuilt as a cyberzombie in a deltaware clinic.

[Ascalaphus]

How often does that theoretical unlimited power growth of mages vs. the finite growth of others really happen? I mean, it's interesting in theory, but how often does the Sammie player complain that he's got nothing interesting to spend karma on?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

How often does that theoretical unlimited power growth of mages vs. the finite growth of others really happen? I mean, it's interesting in theory, but how often does the Sammie player complain that he's got nothing interesting to spend karma on?

Right out of chargen when the sammie already has 6 points in her weapon skill of choice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But lets try and avoid the mage comparisons again as we've already gotten side tracked with that when the topic here is more along the lines of making cyber better than their gear equivalents than making cyber comparable to magic.

Also, someone mentioned a mod for cybereyes to deal with retinal scanners. I'm fairly sure that is already in augmentation somewhere, possibly under nanoware.

[Dakka Dakka]

But the question was: Making cyber better and not making the system realistic.

Just thought about quick and dirty fix: Invent a quality similar to Type O System but for Cyberware.

I'm not sure why you couldn't get optical subsystems in your goggles rather than electronic systems. If the technology exists for optical cybereyes you'd definitely have the ability to make optical goggles.

The point is not that cybereyes for mages are optical but that they are paid for with essence and thus integral part of the character. Even electronic enhancements work for spell targetting, if they are paid for with essence. (Un)fortunately this is only the case with Eyeware.

@optical goggles. There are only a few enhancements that can be done optically IRL: vision magnification, microscopic vision. The interesting stuff lowlight vision and thermographic vision cannot. I doubt that the physics will change a lot between now and 2070.

[Yerameyahu]

That's a rules change that should be made, yes. (If reducing non-implant options for mages is your goal, but I'm assuming it is in this thread.)

I think a Type O cyberware (ignoring the fluff problem) is a little *too* quick and dirty, though. There are some pretty crazy builds out there already.

What aspect of cyber specifically are we hoping to improve here? Reducing Essence cost/increasing effect Essence on Wires and limbs sounds like a terrible idea, on the face of it. So, are we saying those are both much too weak already? While Wires is a very popular (vital) upgrade, there are so many other implants to talk about as well. What about bioware? It's basically the same power as cyber, at vastly inflated prices—does it 'need' to be buffed, too?

[Dakka Dakka]

Also, someone mentioned a mod for cybereyes to deal with retinal scanners. I'm fairly sure that is already in augmentation somewhere, possibly under nanoware.

It's in the main book. Retinal Duplication SR4A p. 340. It does not work well however.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Hmm, yeah, with a max DP of 6, it is hard to beat anything in an opposed roll.

[Epicedion]

Just thought about quick and dirty fix: Invent a quality similar to Type O System but for Cyberware.

The point is not that cybereyes for mages are optical but that they are paid for with essence and thus integral part of the character. Even electronic enhancements work for spell targetting, if they are paid for with essence. (Un)fortunately this is only the case with Eyeware.

@optical goggles. There are only a few enhancements that can be done optically IRL: vision magnification, microscopic vision. The interesting stuff lowlight vision and thermographic vision cannot. I doubt that the physics will change a lot between now and 2070.

The you-paid-essence loophole on magic targeting is lame. I can't imagine an archetype that needs fewer concessions than mages. Especially since they can pop stimpatches and take major wounds without fear of magic loss now.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Removing cybereyes for Awakened would be a huge change in the SR canon, and it would affect everything from wagemages to ghouls. I thought we were talking about making cyber better, not mages worse?

[Vuron]

Just thought about quick and dirty fix: Invent a quality similar to Type O System but for Cyberware.

The point is not that cybereyes for mages are optical but that they are paid for with essence and thus integral part of the character. Even electronic enhancements work for spell targetting, if they are paid for with essence. (Un)fortunately this is only the case with Eyeware.

@optical goggles. There are only a few enhancements that can be done optically IRL: vision magnification, microscopic vision. The interesting stuff lowlight vision and thermographic vision cannot. I doubt that the physics will change a lot between now and 2070.

The optical goggles could just have transparent layers with electronic data super-imposed over it, just like AR data is superimposed when seen through AR Goggles. You could still see through the regular goggles. Night Vision can be accomplished through optical rather than electronic means (although it is bulkier), thermographic would still be problematic but I think most mages can make due with low-light vision.

[Epicedion]

*shrug* Removing cybereyes for Awakened would be a huge change in the SR canon, and it would affect everything from wagemages to ghouls. I thought we were talking about making cyber better, not mages worse?

And no longer having to be deathly afraid of Magic loss isn't a huge change in SR canon? The dynamic changed when involuntary Magic loss became rare to nonexistent, making minor essence trades relatively safe.

But yes, back to cyberimprovement.

[Vuron]

I think you could do something like limit the speed with which skinlinked gear reacts. One of the key advantages of cyber is the DNI + the relative speed of transmission between the brain and the internal/external gear. Simply put light or electrical signals over super-conductive wires should move way faster than data transmitted over the normal nervous system or skin-link. When you are talking targeting data transmitted to goggles for instance that speed differential should be tangible.

In previous editions it was a smaller boost because smart goggles were less efficient. For 4e you could make it so that smartgun + smart goggles + skin-link can only be used on the first IP or maybe 2 IPs maximum. That way if you want the benefit for high IP characters you need to go full DNI, likely with a cybereye and smartgun with a external wire leading to a datajack.

The gunbunny adept is thus forced to invest at least minimally in cyber to keep up with the gunbunny wired dude.

[Mäx]

@Mäx
So why are you making one order mandatory?
Why can't I get muscle augmentation 3 (used), a pair of cybereys, a muscle augmentation 3 (used) and after that get myself the adept quality for a magic of 1?
Is there any rule which says I can't? Because it is stated perfectly clear, that I may pick qualities at any time I choose.

You just dont get it, the order doesn't matter one bit, the magic loss happens no matter what order you do think in chargen.
If you take a bunch of ware and then desice to be an awekened, then if you don't buy more magic you start the game as burn-out as you magic gets reduces below zero at the end of chargen.

[HunterHerne]

The fear of magic loss is largely up to the GM, I would say. In my games I use the Augmentation mass damage rules, and wouldn't rule out magic/essence loss as a result, though it wouldn't be my first choice, either. There is also addiction, and focus addiction. If magic is getting out of hand in your campaigns, and the mages are too heavily relying on things that can cause those, then enforce it. Focus addiction, in particular, makes mages weaker, and if they risk reaching the burn out stage, they can be pretty well neutered.