[X] My Assistant

[Epicedion]

Introducing a restriction to balance a removed restriction isn't wrong in the same direction.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm just saying they're not related. If your problem is not enough danger from drugs or wounds, add more danger from drugs or wounds! Don't break another component of the canon. Besides, those cybereyes cost them at least a point of Magic, which isn't nothing. Is it often a good deal for desperate men? Sure. So?

One solution I've seen proposed (if not actually used) is just doubling awakened characters' Essence loss from 'ware (or, sometimes just from cyber), like the Eagle followers (IIRC).

[Irion]

No it doesn't, magic loss in chargen happens based on your final essence.

From where do you get that?
I do not arguee, that it is the most reasonable solution.
But it is nowhere written. As a matter of fact it works the other way around, anywhere you look.

From raising magic in game to latend awakening. It is a dirt cheap trick. Granted. But I can't find anything in the book telling it is illegal.

[Yerameyahu]

'If it doesn't say I can't, I can'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oy. But yes, presumably they knew the GM would just slap people.

[Dakka Dakka]

One solution I've seen proposed (if not actually used) is just doubling awakened characters' Essence loss from 'ware (or, sometimes just from cyber), like the Eagle followers (IIRC).

So basically you just make all awakened qualities 15 BP more expensive. Sensitive system does exactly that for cyberware. Not my cup of tea, but then I don't believe cyberware is underpowered, not unique enough etc.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not a rule I particularly advocate either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just know I've heard it before. Applying it to bioware is the more novel aspect, though I personally don't find it very 'fair'. It's not really equivalent to a 15BP surcharge, because they can't get rid of it. If they take 'ware, they lose more Magic than currently, and they can't get as much 'ware. Again, not my personal solution, but undeniably a direct counter to the 'augmented mage problem' that Epicedion was focused on.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu

Oy. But yes, presumably they knew the GM would just slap people.

I guess thats why the introduced essence rules for the infected, which let them do exactly that.

The rules for essence lost are just not quite thought through.

[Wakshaani]

From where do you get that?
I do not arguee, that it is the most reasonable solution.
But it is nowhere written. As a matter of fact it works the other way around, anywhere you look.

From raising magic in game to latend awakening. It is a dirt cheap trick. Granted. But I can't find anything in the book telling it is illegal.

Well, you have to take a gander at the whole shebang. Your first method, buying attributes and skills, then qualities once the first group are in a chargen "airlock", for example, points and laughs at both Exceptional Attribute and Exceptional SKill. Your human character paid 25 BP to raise his Agility from 5 to 6, then you bought the Exceptional quality, and now you don't get a refund of 15 BP from your attribute not being the max. You also can't go back and boost it to a 7, since, you know ... Airlock.

Ditto for skills.

And then you get an interaction with cyberware that hurts! For instance, you bought all your cyberware, put it into the Chargen Airlock, then bought qualities ... like teh ones that allow you to implant cyberware at a lowered essence cost. D'oh! Sorry Augmentation! You just printed a ton of sucky rules!

So, yeah, CHargen is a bit loosegoosey in terms of when you do things. There's no real 'step' method... heck, if there was, it might well be that you have to get qualities *first*, since they can adjust changes of gear and statlines!

So, yeah, trying to stuff your cyberware into an airlock so that you can buy magic in the cheap? Not valid, unless you invalidate a *ton* of qualities. The proper way would be RAW, which says that your Magic is reduced the same level as your essence was.

Now, personally?

In order to encourage the Burned-Out Mage archtype (Which I adore!) and to bring up the notion that there's a consequence to hacking your body apart, I lower the maximum magic that you can have, rather than your current magic, in a way similar to one poster up above limits Initiating to your Essence. This involves a "Magic Attribute Cap", just like all the other attributes have.

...

But this is getting off topic, isn't it?

New post, about cyberware, NEXT!

[Vuron]

2x essence costs for Awakened would probably work.

That way you'd still probably invest in some minimal upgrades (cybereyes, smart-link, possibly datajack) but for the most part you'd rely on spells or adept powers for the greater part of your schtick.

You could reduce the penalty for bioware options vis a vis the wired options but I think you'd have to increase the penalty for Bioware at least a little unless you want every awakened character to invest exclusively in bio options.

[Wakshaani]

As for cyberware, once it starts getting outmoded, you need to give it the ol' one-two punch ... it gets easier to find (Lower availability) and drop the cost.

For example, have you gone back and looked at CYberlimbs in, say, second edition? HUGE cost, low benefits, but so essential to the genre that you wanted to see more of them? Thus, the cost dropped by 90% (!) and the utility went WAY up.

Start fiddling with other cyberware for similar effects.

For instance, who wants buclky ol' Vat-grown muscle replacement when bioware muscle augmentation/toners are sooo much sexier and softer on your essence? As everyone bails on your product, you need to slash prices to drive sales! 5000 per rating is just too high! How about 1000 Nuyen per rating, with an availability of X3, right out of the gate? Yeah, the essence cost is huge, but now the street grunts can muscle up on the cheap.

Nobody wants cyberweapons anymore aside from the scary old guy with a Wolverine fetish? Those availabilities have gotta go! Every backalley clinic in the sprawl has a pile of old cyber-implants, just lookin' for a new home! Retractable spurs? Availability 8! Retractable razors? How about a 4? NON-retractable razors? Availability - and only 500 Nuyen ... we're practically GIVING them away!

That's not even talking about new gear. I heard that Johnny Edge was testing the new Smartlin V system from Ares. Designed to link up to the Predator V (It's in alpha testing!), but it'll spread out from there. Turns out that it needs the neural connection that cybereyes grant, instead of the weaker link that goggles give. Maybe they'll clear it up in beta, maybe not, but ol' Johnny got the nod since he's got eyes that can handle it. They're rated as a +3, instead of the normal +2, but we don't know what the cost will be yet. Probably need to get some more field tests done, see what the feedback is, before they can start selling them for reals. Don't you wish you'd gone ahead and gotten chrome orbs now? Hey, I know a guy that's doing implants on the cheap right now...

[Stahlseele]

Flat out double essence loss for anything that causes essence loss, if the loser is awakened.
Will take care of most of these problems and make adepts pretty much a fluff choice too . .

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I think the best options were already stated, and I'll just reiterate them:

Deduct essence loss from casting rolls (beneficial and hostile), AND from summoning rolls. That both makes mundanes stronger and makes taking anything above 1 essence loss quite unattractive for a mage, because now when casting on yourself you are losing 4 dice. Doesn't affect adepts so much, which is also good, because they are hampered without a bit of ware. REALLY nerfs mysads, because they already have so few casting dice, and mostly use them for buffing.

Give cyber (and bio) a flat +1 to DPs over gear options, and for each element involved in a roll. For example, implanted vision magnification and smartlink grant +2, total, to rolls involving both. You are also giving that option to essence 5 or 4 mages, but then it doesn't boost their primary skills. It does, however, make adepts better.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, Wakshaani: cyberware already exhibits that feature. It's vastly cheaper than bio equivalents, with the tradeoff being Essence. That's what cyber is, and what it should be, in 2070. Are you saying 'go further'?

[squee_nabob]

I’m a late comer, but I’ll start off with more useful ware. One problem is you can cap out on useful ware in character creation, and have to go with B list ware after that.

[Yerameyahu]

That might be a point: is there simply not enough cool cyber for it to be a long-term advancement path?

[Wakshaani]

I agree, Wakshaani: cyberware already exhibits that feature. It's vastly cheaper than bio equivalents, with the tradeoff being Essence. That's what cyber is, and what it should be, in 2070. Are you saying 'go further'?

For certain aspects, yes, but only if you have the same view as the original poster... cyberware is 'dead' and so on. Giving cyber-eye'd smartlinks an extra +1 beyond what goggles can give falls under the 'improving cyberware' approach.

As for current stuff, 5000 for vatmuscles vs 15,000 for biomuscles isn't a huge difference, but the 1.0 essence vs 0.2 essence is massive. Alphamuscles won't close that gap ... heck, even delta muscles won't come close, but cost *way* more. The price difference sn't enough to seduce people very often ... when's the last PC you had with vat specials instead of bio? So, a little improvement, or at least cost reduction, would seem to be in order.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

From where do you get that?
I do not arguee, that it is the most reasonable solution.
But it is nowhere written. As a matter of fact it works the other way around, anywhere you look.

From raising magic in game to latend awakening. It is a dirt cheap trick. Granted. But I can't find anything in the book telling it is illegal.

From the book:
Step 1: Metatype
Step 2: Qualities
Step 3: Attributes
Step 4: Skills
Step 5: Karma to Nuyen conversion
Step 6: Gear
Step 7: Contacts
Step 8: Make sure all your karma has been spent
Step 9: Apply modifiers to stats from implants and other sources, calculate derived stats such as init
Step 10: Roll for starting cash

So you can't do an essence drop/magic raise trick during chargen because your essence doesn't get lowered till step 9, which means your magic doesn't get changed till step 9.

Thank you for playing "Munchkin Tactics" but I'm afraid your method doesn't work.

[Vuron]

I think there are cool options it's just that they aren't really available without pulling out really optional rules.

For instance I think there is a demand for full body conversions, both obvious and life-like like a Major Motoko from GitS but once you start doing 4 cyberlimbs, a cyber torso, a cyber skull and the required IP boosters (wired 2+) you are way way into needing bleeding edge cyberware + qualities and even then you aren't really that awesome.

Cyberzombies have significant playability issues that make them unworkable in most groups and borgs are pretty much clearly children trapped in a brain in the jar scenario. Plus rigging a body just seems like such a kludged solution.

Increasing essence cost helps tone down the cyber-mage and let's be honest the mages don't need the help and thus you really only have issues with the relative power level of adepts (pure adepts are pretty gimped in 4a and cybered adepts are maybe too good). However I think that could be solved by reducing the cost of various adept powers. Another solution would be to allow the adept to swap out adept powers like a skillwired person can change out active skills. That way if the adept centers himself for 15 minutes he can become a ninja type character and if he centers again he could be a gun bunny or a face or whatever. You'd want to limit the number of adept power known but he could choose freely among that pool to a certain value.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Another solution would be to allow the adept to swap out adept powers like a skillwired person can change out active skills. That way if the adept centers himself for 15 minutes he can become a ninja type character and if he centers again he could be a gun bunny or a face or whatever. You'd want to limit the number of adept power known but he could choose freely among that pool to a certain value.

Hmm, that sounds like a cool solution. Let the adept take maybe 2x as many powers as normal, but can only have half the total PP worth active at any one time and be able to switch your powers with some extended thing. Maybe an extended willpower test with 1 minute intervals. That makes it possible to change stuff out in the middle of a run if you have prep time, but doesn't let you go from stealth build to combat build if the dreck hits the air circulator without warning.

[LurkerOutThere]

That might be a point: is there simply not enough cool cyber for it to be a long-term advancement path?

This tends to be my feeling. They are some things that steel should just do better then flesh even vat grown flesh. One of the other changes I was looking at making was making cyberlimbs better out of the box, up to and including starting one stat at racial max. Otherwise I just don't see a lot of folks taking cyberlimbs.

[Vuron]

For certain aspects, yes, but only if you have the same view as the original poster... cyberware is 'dead' and so on. Giving cyber-eye'd smartlinks an extra +1 beyond what goggles can give falls under the 'improving cyberware' approach.

As for current stuff, 5000 for vatmuscles vs 15,000 for biomuscles isn't a huge difference, but the 1.0 essence vs 0.2 essence is massive. Alphamuscles won't close that gap ... heck, even delta muscles won't come close, but cost *way* more. The price difference sn't enough to seduce people very often ... when's the last PC you had with vat specials instead of bio? So, a little improvement, or at least cost reduction, would seem to be in order.

I hardly ever see a PC take anything other than Muscle Augmentation/Toner. It has better essence efficiency than replacement and many characters want to augment either strength or agility at different rates. Finally because it comes out of the bioware pool (even though it does impact essence) you can further reduce the actual essence cost because you bioware pool will likely be smaller than your cyberware pool.

Other than cheapo vatjob thugs as extras muscle replacement just doesn't really enter into common usage anymore.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

The question is, just how cheap would you need to make it for people to seriously consider getting it? I think you could make it free and people still wouldn't bother with it (grades aside). Now, if you halved the essence to 0.5 and kept the cost the same it would look tempting to some people, but I still think you'd see people leaning towards bioware because not too many are going to be as worried about str as agi, and so will still want the toner.

Still, at least it makes it into a serious consideration instead purely an NPC thing.

[Dakka Dakka]

The problem with cyberlimbs isn't the stats of one limb but the fact that realistically you should nearly always have to use the average across all limbs. Moreover you should also include the head and the torso, whose cyber equivalents neither are intended to have augmented attributes nor come with the capacity to carry them.
So besides spending lots of ¥ and essence on the limbs you also need more Karma and ¥ to raise the attributes of the rest of your body to the value of your cyberlimbs.

To be remotely viable the character either just has only tow options either take a partial limb with goodies or go full "borg". The middle ground is very inefficient.

[KCKitsune]

I don't like crippling mages with losing double the Essence of an implant. I mean if you have that big of a bat to the head then WHY would any mage get 'ware? My method makes it so that a mage can get ware, but it limits his future growth... you know the old "You can have power now, but you will be weaker in the future" trope.

[LurkerOutThere]

One option that has occured to me is just giving non magical folks bonus essence which would make some of those high essence options more attractive especially at character creation. Say we raised essence to 8 for example but made adept, mage and resonant all have a essence rating hit.