[X] My Assistant

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

More essence would help, but you're still balancing cyber with magic which isn't the point here, it is balancing cyber with devices.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I don't like crippling mages with losing double the Essence of an implant. I mean if you have that big of a bat to the head then WHY would any mage get 'ware? My method makes it so that a mage can get ware, but it limits his future growth... you know the old "You can have power now, but you will be weaker in the future" trope.

That has never worked. Seriously, in D&D it might, but not SR, where POWER, NOW is pretty much it, because it usually means more power, later. Look at it this way: The character will play for the first 100 karma as an ubermensch, and then some other ubermensch might overtake him, but... firstly, if that's an NPC, then you are either de-protagonising, or likely provoking a TPK, or if it's another PC, then that's only fair, but that player was still overshadowed for a LONG time.

So any fix that sacrifices on the long has to really really think about the middle-run, too, because that's the only motivation. I don't even know whether my character will live to 100 karma, why worry? I'll be having good fun with my POWER, NOW character, and in the end, there's ALWAYS someone better, that's simply probabilities at work.

On Topic:

Seriously a perfect option to make cyber more attractive is give even less starting cash. I guess that's what the designers wanted, really, but they didn't go far enough. If you only have 150K to spend, then you simply won't have the money for too much bio, and suddenly that cheap cyber is looking good again.

It's actually pretty amazing what you can do with just 60-70k nuyen (without lifestyles and vehicles). Sure you won't have any essence left worth mentioning, but...

Well, I'm not really advocating this route. But short of writing up simply different, new cyber that does interesting things that bioware can't do, you're not going to change any of the basic premises.

[Chance359]

What about splitting muscle replacement up?

Muscle Replacement (Str mod
4000 and .5 essence per point
Muscle Enhancement (agil mod
6000 and .5 essence per point

[Yerameyahu]

Honestly, I love Muscle Replacement. I get it on almost any character I make. You can always take it out later and swap in higher-grade stuff, after all. I assume a bioware-style cyber mod would be just like the bioware in play: everyone gets just the Toner, saves Essence and money, and is therefore more powerful. I guess that's mission accomplished, but it doesn't really feel like it's making cyber 'better'.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Indeed, why would I get the cyber here for 6k and .5 essence when the bio is 8k and .2 essence? Now if you made it... 2k and .4 essence or somewhere in there, you might have something.

The real problem is that bio is suppose to be significantly more expensive, but significantly more essence friendly, almost like adding another 4 grades to cyber. You go: Basic Cyber, Alpha Cyber, Beta Cyber, Delta Cyber, Basic Bio, Alpha Bio, Beta Bio, Delta Bio. There is usually actually a bit of overlap in there in that delta cyber tends to be above bio, and even beta is usually right around there. Now, on to the actual problem: Muscle toner and Muscle enhancement are already really cheap, like almost as cheap as the alpha cyber, but better in essence than the delta cyber. This is a huge gap from what we see in things like synaptic boosters vs wired reflexes. In that case you can nearly get delta cyber for the cost of basic bio (Which ultimately makes delta wired reflexes useless, but that's a very minor problem). Same goes for the skin and bone mods, both of which feature somewhere between a beta and delta cost difference.

So yeah, if you only want agi, then the cost is less than the alpha difference, and if you want both, it is barely above alpha difference, but still more effective than delta.

Yeram does have a point about you can always replace them, but if you're planning on replacing them, why blow the 5k nuyen? And then the problem crops up of 'if your going to blow the 5k anyway, why not make it 8k?'.

The other solution to fixing the problem is to make toner/enhancement more expensive, instead of cyber cheaper.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Ok, I'm going to try to tack on some quick homebrew to make Cyber actually more INTERESTING:

Get rid of realism where Cyber-weapons are concerned, and most certainly don't make them worse than detached guns. Give them a fat bonus to concealment. Make it cool to suddenly break a sub-gun out of a cyberlimb and blaze away.

Let Cyber, but NOT bio, surpass the racial augmented limit. Yes, that actually makes sense, because you are changing so much of the body that it shouldn't really matter what the biological limitations are - the huge essence cost says so. Or at least make cyber suites that do, for instance, a combination of Titanium Bone Lacing and Muscle Replacement 4.

Make the MBW a real viable option compared to wired reflexes or the adept power. Let it surpass racial limits, too. Basically reduce availability for MBW3 to within reach of Restricted Gear. Give it Rating 6 skillwires just like the Stirrup.

Make some interesting options for cyberlimbs - implanted toolkits, etc. These might partly exist already. Arguably cyberlimbs aren't the issue, here, because they are reasonably attractive in 4th edition.

Make moddable Borg kits that are available at chargen, let's say for around 100K nuyen, as a viable alternative to a meat body, with stats that can compete.

Make cyber cool in the world: Essentially, put the Punk back in cyberpunk. Make it the rage to have crome sticking out of your body, rather than the icky-factor it has right now.

Make cyber armour better. Seriously, make (potentially hardened) armour available in ranges that can compete with gear - at least 10 points should be possible without sacrificing too much else. Of course, it has to be exclusive, then, and not stack with worn armour, i.e. it has to be included in encumbrance calculations.

For instance:

Exo-skin
This suit of obvious interlocking plates of armour covers the entire body. It has capacity like an armour suit with a helmet, and encumbers as one. It provides one point of ballistic and impact armour per rating, and has a minimum rating of 4, and a maximum rating of 2x the user's body attribute. Exo-skin grants 2 bonus dice for social skill tests, because it looks totally cool. It also has cyberlimb capacity of 1 per rating, and can accept most mods with the exceptions of attribute enhancements and cyberlimb armour.
Exo-skin can be upgraded.

Essence cost: 0.1 per rating
Nuyen cost: 3000 per rating
Avail: 2+1/rating R

Militiary Exo-skin
This suit of high-grade implanded armour works like Exo Skin, but is additionally hardened to withstand even the most devastating impacts. It provides hardened armour of 1 point per rating, with a minimum rating of 6, and a maximum rating of 3x the user's body attribute. It has cyberlimb capacity equal to 2x its rating, and can accept most mods with the exception of attribute enhancements and cyberlimb armour.

Essence cost: 0.1 per rating
Nuyen: 5000/rating
Avail: 10+1/rating R

---
These would enable you to make Robocop, at least, and should be versatile enough to be actually interesting. Both are available at chargen up to to 10 points for normal (without restricted gear), or 10 points of milspec (with restricted gear).

[Ascalaphus]

I really don't think you need to raise Essence costs on implants for the Awakened; I think it's good that even for them, it seems more efficient to give up some "purity".

"Awakened would just get implants like the rest, and be better!" you say? I don't think so - I doubt any serious Awakened character would sacrifice that third point of Essence, because Magic 3 just doesn't cut it.

So you just need to have enough desirable implants that you can easily fill up 5 points of Essence with "I WANT IT" stuff at CharGen. That way, the mages go all hand-wringing because they can't take everything they want, and other people come a lot closer to that.

I do agree that the continuum from cyberlimbs to cyborgs needs to be developed more. It was cool in Ghost in the Shell; it would be feasible in SR.
=> the CCU needs to be redefined a bit: it's a brain in a jar, but the "directly to 0.1 Essence" is troubling, because that prevents you from taking stuff like Cerebral Boosters or a Math SPU, which make sense for a brain in a jar.
=> Do you put your brain in a cyberbody, or do you rig your cyberbody remotely? It's a big choice, because keeping your brain in a vault somewhere is safer, but you become vulnerable to people screwing with your connection. Inside the body is better if you need radio silence, but you're also "in the field".

I like the idea of a "cyberlimb shell" that still uses the normal rules for people with bodies, rather than being piloted like a rigger rigging a drone.

---

Another idea for Cyberware:

Null Bones (Rating 1-4)
Availability: (Rating * 6)R, Cost: Rating * 20.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Essence: Rating * 0.5
Null Bones are a recent manatech discovery by S-K. Oricalchum rods are treated in a secret procedure to really muddle the mana flow of any body they're implanted in. They grant their host an (involuntary) Object Resistance equal to their Rating. (The host still gets normal resistance to magic.) These things are absolute horror to spellcasters however, because they subtract their Rating from their host's effective Magic rating.

Other ideas: an implant that converts CO2 back into oxygen, allowing indefinite holding of breath. Or perhaps altogether removing the lungs, which actually increases capacity to put in other implants because it rees up a lot of space.

[Epicedion]

Full cyber bodies aren't really Shadowrunny. Shadowrun has always sided on the man side of the man-machine line, with things going too far becoming twisted abominations. They are very Ghost in the Shell, but I don't think those two need to get any closer than they already are.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree. I'm tired of hearing how it's a problem that people can't replace their whole body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree. I'm tired of hearing how it's a problem that people can't replace their whole body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, you can. It is just very costly, hard to rationalize why you are now on the street without a support network, and not very Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Well, you can. It is just very costly, hard to rationalize why you are now on the street without a support network, and not very Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is when that Corporate Sammi you cut down a dozen games ago comes back as one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is when that Corporate Sammi you cut down a dozen games ago comes back as one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Sure, Sure... I can see that... Heh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

It is when that Corporate Sammi you cut down a dozen games ago comes back as one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

There's a reason GiTS isn't a story about freelancers. Still... I think full borgs should be more possible. Maybe don't think GiTS, think Gunnmu (Battle Angel Alita). More punk.

[sabs]

Second hand cyberware opens up a world of cyberware for very very cheap. Sure it makes it even more essence intensive. But it's well worth it.

If you want Bioware to be less common, double or triple all the prices for bioware. If you really want to be mean, get rid of the 1/2 essence for which ever is lower thing.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yeah, but you also have second hand bio, which is more attractive than second hand cyber because it gives you a smaller essence penalty and a larger nuyen reduction.

I don't think you'd need to increase the price of all bioware. Some things seem quite nicely balanced like synaptic boosters and orthoskin. It is just a few specific examples such as muscle toner that cause problems, though that could really have more to do with agi being the most useful stat and str being the least than problems with the options themselves.

[sabs]

My problem with Muscle TOner is that if you're an ADEPT,you're an idiot if you don't take them, vs taking agility boosting adept powers.

Muscle Toners should probably cost much more, like maybe as much as 5x more.

[Epicedion]

There's a reason GiTS isn't a story about freelancers. Still... I think full borgs should be more possible. Maybe don't think GiTS, think Gunnmu (Battle Angel Alita). More punk.

Shadowrun isn't anime. It follows more Western sci-fi and fantasy literature conventions. Making it more like GitS, etc, is contrary to its theme.

[sabs]

Cyborgs and Cyberzombies should be what you /fight/ when you accidentally break into the wrong zero-zone lab.

Not who you are.

[squee_nabob]

This tends to be my feeling. They are some things that steel should just do better then flesh even vat grown flesh. One of the other changes I was looking at making was making cyberlimbs better out of the box, up to and including starting one stat at racial max. Otherwise I just don't see a lot of folks taking cyberlimbs.

Cyberlimbs are actually quite good for some concepts. In fact most street samurai builds I see rely on a “cyberarm of awesome” where you use restricted gear to get availability 20 Obvious Full Cyberarm. Max the arm’s body and agility with customization and enhancements, and then use an SMG. SMGs are one handed, so you use the cyberarm’s agility (I expect this to be 9), and wearing armor is a “full body” activity, so you average the cyberarm’s body (I expect this also to be 9) with your own to wear more armor. Add in a comlink, shock hands, etc to taste. Also the cyber limb gyromount is very good, as it is +3 RC that stacks with stocks, gas-vents, & personalized grip (amongst other things). This allows you to get to the magic 11RC quite easily.

One option that has occured to me is just giving non magical folks bonus essence which would make some of those high essence options more attractive especially at character creation. Say we raised essence to 8 for example but made adept, mage and resonant all have a essence rating hit.

The problem is not enough good cyber ware. Most cyberware is +number to a one or two rolls. You need broad, role-oriented cyberware. Think Tailored Pheremones. When did you see a face without Tailored Pheremones (or Kinesics, or both)? You want more stuff like that, less stuff like Math SPU, or Grapple Gun.

[HunterHerne]

Shadowrun isn't anime. It follows more Western sci-fi and fantasy literature conventions. Making it more like GitS, etc, is contrary to its theme.

It may not be anime, itself, but it does borrow a lot from Japanese culture, especially where Japanese economics is assumed to have taken the overhead (with the global nuyen, and three of the megacorps being japanese (Renraku, Shiawase, and MCT)

[Epicedion]

It may not be anime, itself, but it does borrow a lot from Japanese culture, especially where Japanese economics is assumed to have taken the overhead (with the global nuyen, and three of the megacorps being japanese (Renraku, Shiawase, and MCT)

Japanese culture of the 80s and early 90s. Back when anime was called "Japanimation" and only available by mail order on late-night TV.

GitS (etc) were based on stuff like Blade Runner and Neuromancer. We don't need to do some Babelfish English to Japanese to English retranslation.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Shadowrun isn't anime. It follows more Western sci-fi and fantasy literature conventions. Making it more like GitS, etc, is contrary to its theme.

Of course it's not, but actually many of the tech aspects ARE very anime-like, while the magic stuff is western fantasy. And we're talking about the tech, here.

Also, theme is very much a consequence of play-style, and I would say that SR doesn't actually have a common theme outside of "Freelancers do dirty work". Everything else is rather up to interpretation, and ranges from extreme stealth+mirror-shades to good old 80s pink mohawk, where full borgs easily have a place.

[Stahlseele]

Cyborgs and Cyberzombies should be what you /fight/ when you accidentally break into the wrong zero-zone lab.

Not who you are.

Robocop and Terminator are western Trademarks of Cyberpunk.
Well, ED-209 may have been a step too far but otherwise my point still stands . .

[sabs]

Robocop is a solo character.
Terminator is also a solo character.

Solo characters tend to break the molds, because you can be arbitrarily more powerful, because who cares if you're balanced with the other pcs.

Look at Robocop, and tell me who the other 3 people in his gaming group are playing.

[Epicedion]

Of course it's not, but actually many of the tech aspects ARE very anime-like, while the magic stuff is western fantasy. And we're talking about the tech, here.

Also, theme is very much a consequence of play-style, and I would say that SR doesn't actually have a common theme outside of "Freelancers do dirty work". Everything else is rather up to interpretation, and ranges from extreme stealth+mirror-shades to good old 80s pink mohawk, where full borgs easily have a place.

The tech aspects are anime-like now, but that's probably due to the rise of anime slightly predating the SR4 design period. I think it throws the theme off, since body-replacement tech pre-anime plunged into the inhuman, whereas now tech tends to be spiffy and clean. Fancy cultured bioware, etc. It's far removed from its origins.