[X] My Assistant

[KCKitsune]

A mage might get their hands and feet cut off for the armor, but they don’t need the agility for shooting people.

I had my Combat Medic Mage with both his hands and his lower right leg replaced for gear, not armor. There are so many pieces of wiz gear that IMHO "wasting" slots on armor is kind of pointless. Sure you can get 1 or 2 points of B/I armor, but you can't get anything else. I very much like my RADAR sensor and datajack in my character's left hand and the cyber safety and shock hand in my right. Goes well with the smartlink in the eyes.

@Hida Tsuzua: Mages would all get cybereyes because with 16 capacity, they would take the Essence hit to get ALL of the vision enhancements. My Combat Mage went with Cybereyes rating 3 just so I could get Lowlight, Thermo, Vision mag, AND smartlink.

Given how powerful IPs are, I think the bioware should be more expensive. Making the cyberware cheaper would be pretty major power creep.

Bioware is already pretty darn expensive. It's just the Essence cost of WR 3 is too high (like what was said before)

[Spanky_Harrison]

Given how powerful IPs are, I think the bioware should be more expensive. Making the cyberware cheaper would be pretty major power creep.

I agree for the most part.

I would kind of like to see Wires/MbW 3 go down to 4E, or maybe even 3.5E, but honestly I think that boosters just need to be 1E per rating, instead of .5.

[UmaroVI]

Why would the Reaction Enhancement not stack with Synaptic Accellerator?

Wired reflexes "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."

Synaptic boosters "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement."

[KCKitsune]

I agree for the most part.

I would kind of like to see Wires/MbW 3 go down to 4E, or maybe even 3.5E, but honestly I think that boosters just need to be 1E per rating, instead of .5.

Excuse me? Rating 3 Synaptic Booster would be 3 Essence and Rating 3 Wired Reflexes would be 3.5? Why get the Booster when you can spend a little more Essence, but a whole lot less money for WR? Just lower the Essence cost of WR 2 and 3 to more sane levels and be done with it.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Honestly, I'm really feeling like Wired Reflexes, and Move-by-Wire to a lesser extent, are suffering from the same problems as Muscle Replacement. It doesn't really matter that they are cheaper in money, their essence cost is so crippling compared to the bioware equivalent, that they just aren't worth it.

What do you folks think?

I think wired reflexes, MBW and Synaptic Accelerators aren't too bad. A large factor in that is that IPs suffer from diminishing returns. The vast majority of fights are decided by IP:2 and then finished in IP:3. Getting the second IP is really important and the third is really nice. But getting the fourth IP is just okay. If you really must act on IP:4 you can just spend a point of edge. Also in general, going first is more important than how often you act.

The most common rating is the rating 2 versions because it's also the best level you can easily get at creation without significant cost. At lower ratings, you can just take cram or burn edge because you're clearly not a combat character and can use the resources elsewhere. Wired Reflexes 2 is 3 essence and 32000Y. Synaptic Accelerators 2 is 1 essence and 160,000Y. MBW2 is 3 essence and 85000Y along with essence free Skillwires 4 (8000Y and .8 essence value) and Reaction Enhancer 2 (20,000Y and .6 essence value). Wired Reflexes are for the cheap. MBW2 is worthwhile package deal. Synaptic Accelerators are a huge nuyen sink for noteworthy essence saving. I can see arguments for different ones depending on the rest of the character and their goals. Used MBW2 is an amazing deal (4.4 essence and 60000Y worth of excellent ware for 3.6 essence and 42500Y) assuming the GM doesn't shaft you over.

As for higher levels, I agree. The cost of MBW3 and Wired Reflexes 3 is just too expensive in terms of essence. While you can make essence go a long way, 5 is just too much and the only worthwhile option is Synaptic Accelerator 3 for 240,000Y. However that's really really expensive. If you make 15,000Y net profit per run (which is average to nice pay in my experience) that's 16 runs worth of saving. I could see starting with Wired Reflexes 2 and saving for the accelerators, but that's a really long time to wait for +1 reaction and +1 IP. If your pay is much better (40,000Y profit per run takes only 6 runs), then I can see going that way.

Edit- Style

[Spanky_Harrison]

Excuse me? Rating 3 Synaptic Booster would be 3 Essence and Rating 3 Wired Reflexes would be 3.5? Why get the Booster when you can spend a little more Essence, but a whole lot less money for WR? Just lower the Essence cost of WR 2 and 3 to more sane levels and be done with it.

Heheh, I wouldn't advocate both. That would be silly.

I could maybe see lowering Wires 3 to 4E and raising Boosters to 1ExR, so that basic boosters would still be a full essence cheaper than basic wires for about 3x the cost, (you pay an extra 100k or so for the difficulty in detection) and Betaware wires would cost about twice as much as basic boosters for a savings of .2E, and delta Wires would cost about 4x basic boosters for a savings of 1 point of essence.

Maybe make boosters .8E per rating.

hmm... Im going to whip up a comparison table to see what it would really look like...

[Hida Tsuzua]

I had my Combat Medic Mage with both his hands and his lower right leg replaced for gear, not armor. There are so many pieces of wiz gear that IMHO "wasting" slots on armor is kind of pointless. Sure you can get 1 or 2 points of B/I armor, but you can't get anything else. I very much like my RADAR sensor and datajack in my character's left hand and the cyber safety and shock hand in my right. Goes well with the smartlink in the eyes.

@Hida Tsuzua: Mages would all get cybereyes because with 16 capacity, they would take the Essence hit to get ALL of the vision enhancements. My Combat Mage went with Cybereyes rating 3 just so I could get Lowlight, Thermo, Vision mag, AND smartlink.

Radar, datajack, safety and shock takes up 7 slots. Put it all an obvious bulky lower arm and that's 5 slots left over. Then replace your other hand with a bulky hand and your non-bulky foot with armor. That's 7 armor right there, 1 less than you would have gotten otherwise. If you really need space, you can cyberdiabetus with alphaware lower limbs for not that much more. There's some great accessories out there, but when they're out, there's armor. If you don't need the mods, there's armor.

As for eyes, right now you could just buy a set of glasses and contact lens that does all that (and more!) and take your .4 essence for somewhere else. Heck with the money you save, buy a spare set for when your first set is stolen (if ever). Really the changes is just removing ratings from cybereyes, because if the eyes only cost .2 essence regardless of rating, they need to cost a lot more (1000Y difference is nothing) or you'll just buy the highest rank you can. Since they're still competing with a set of goggles, they can't be made too much more expensive.

[Stahlseele]

Wired reflexes "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."

Synaptic boosters "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement."

Reaction Enhancers give reaction though, and not initiative, right? O.o
(yes, i realize we have had this discussion several dozend times already ^^)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yes, but enhancing reaction (or intuition) enhances initiative.

[Stahlseele]

indirectly, but so do things that improve on intelligence and quickness right?
so is it incompatible with muscle stuff too?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

No, only Reaction and Intuition improve initiative, both of which have very few things that actually change them, the main of which are reaction enhancers and the IP boosters and a few drugs.

[Stahlseele]

I still say, it is compatible.
Because it does not, as stated, improve initiative, but one of the attributes initiative is being derived from . .
And under SR3, reaction enhancers and synaptic accellerators worked together just fine, because ini and rea had little to do with each other . .

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

What happened in previous editions has no bearing on the actual RAW in this edition.

Personally when I see "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers." I take that to mean Reaction Enhancers are defined as a form of Initiative enhancement. Otherwise that's like saying 'cannot be combined with any form of Initiative Enhnacement, except poodles' which makes no sense at all.

[Stahlseele]

says that on the wired reflexes right?
because that was copied 1:1 from 3rd ed.
in there, it was not compatible with MBW or Synaptic Accellerator or improved reflexes.
Because each of those gave +dice on initiative, which reaction enhancers did not.
thus they were compatible with the wired reflexes. Hell, Reaction enhancers were compatible with basically ANYTHING . . aside from one other implant, i think . .
edit: which was move by wire . .

So: MBW was compatible with NOTHING anything else.
Reaction enhancers were compatible WITH anything else EXCEPTION being MBW.
Wired Reflexes were compatible with NOTHING BUT Reaction Enhancers
Improved Reflexes were compatible with Synaptic Accellerator and Reaction Enhancers and nothing else
Synaptic Accelerators were compatible with improved reflexes and reaction enhancers but not anything else.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Like I said, what was and wasn't the case in 3rd edition doesn't really have much bearing on 4th edition as far as what the rules say.

Rules imply about as strongly as it is possible to without directly stating it, that reaction enhancers are an initiative enhancer. Their compatibility with anything in previous editions irrelevant.

[Stahlseele]

This is a simple fuck up/bad wording.
They are and always have been compatible.
Nothing that adds ini passes may be combined with something else that adds ini passes, aside from drugs. The higher always applies, the lower gets ignored.
Reaction is a purely physical not special attribute which, in combination with intuition are used to derive something called initiative, which has NOTHING to do with the ini passes themselves . .
After your reading, nothing that enhances intuition in any kind or way is compatible with synaptic accellerators either . .

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Hey, they've had 2 erratas, a new rulebook, and a FAQ to fix the mistake. I figure if it is still in at this point, there is a reasonable chance it was intentional.

And yeah, sure, that is a possible extension of my reading, but there is nothing in the game that increases intuition except the attribute spell (and maybe a couple drugs), and the only things that increase reaction are the three IP boosters, the adept IP booster, the adept attribute boost and improved attribute, the increase attribute spell, lightning reflexes, and of course reaction enhancers (and some drugs).

Most of those specifically say they're incompatible. So yeah, I have no problem with the interpretation that anything that increases reaction or intuition is an initiative enhancer.

[Irion]

It funny that most players won't settle for something less than the maximum. (You have to have 4 IPs)
Even if the last IP is much to expensive and useless for the price to pay.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

It really depends on who you're fighting. If all you fight are 1 IP goons, then 4 IP is fairly overkill. If you're going up against enemies with 2-3 IP however, having that extra IP can be very useful.

[KCKitsune]

As for eyes, right now you could just buy a set of glasses and contact lens that does all that (and more!) and take your .4 essence for somewhere else.

Except you can't cast through glasses and contacts. I wanted to be able to cast in almost any condition.

[Irion]

It really depends on who you're fighting. If all you fight are 1 IP goons, then 4 IP is fairly overkill. If you're going up against enemies with 2-3 IP however, having that extra IP can be very useful.

Not really.
How to win a difficult fight in SR.
As a mage:
Spend edge to go first.
Powerbolt your target (maybe spend edge to get certainty).

As a sam:
Spend Edge to go first.
Take your assault rifle and fire a small burst (so you can fire two in one round).
If your target is likely to doge fire a wide if not narrow.
If the target is still up after the first, fire second on target. If target is down, fire second on other target.

(If the enemy get one shot at you, you might be dead.)

[Stahlseele]

Hey, they've had 2 erratas, a new rulebook, and a FAQ to fix the mistake. I figure if it is still in at this point, there is a reasonable chance it was intentional.

And yeah, sure, that is a possible extension of my reading, but there is nothing in the game that increases intuition except the attribute spell (and maybe a couple drugs), and the only things that increase reaction are the three IP boosters, the adept IP booster, the adept attribute boost and improved attribute, the increase attribute spell, lightning reflexes, and of course reaction enhancers (and some drugs).

Most of those specifically say they're incompatible. So yeah, I have no problem with the interpretation that anything that increases reaction or intuition is an initiative enhancer.

So, let me see if i got this right:
you are saying the following:
"The Rules state that A is incompatible with the complete rest of the alphabet with the explicitly stated exception of B. This must mean that C is not compatible with B because the rules clearly state that A is explicitly only compatible with B and thus IMPLY that C can't be compatible with B!"
You can see the error in that reasoning right?
Please tell me you can . .
Because the exclusion of EVERYTHING ELSE IS NOT IN B BUT IN A!
Furthermore, there not being any errata which clears up stupid shit like this as of yet is NOT a valid argument, because this IS still CGL we are talking about here . .
Who do NOT release Errata that they already have and which they okayed to be included in the german books for printing because . . well . . yes, simply because . .

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

And suppose you're fighting more than one person as happens in 99% of encounters? Or lets say you don't have 6 edge or fight more than a couple of times?

You're basically describing how to take out very small numbers of mooks at a huge resource expenditure.

[Irion]

@Ghost_in_the_System
Well, it depends.
It works the same way. The differance to be said is: It is harder.

Even with four IPs you will get shot at.
(The last IP just lets you take down a guy who might be still standing)

If you get shot at, there are other things to consider.
First:
Are you hit and can you soak the damage. Because it does not matter if you get shot at 5 times if you do not take any damage.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

So, let me see if i got this right:
you are saying the following:
"The Rules state that A is incompatible with the complete rest of the alphabet with the explicitly stated exception of B. This must mean that C is not compatible with B because the rules clearly state that A is explicitly only compatible with B and thus IMPLY that C can't be compatible with B!"
You can see the error in that reasoning right?
Please tell me you can . .
Because the exclusion of EVERYTHING ELSE IS NOT IN B BUT IN A!
Furthermore, there not being any errata which clears up stupid shit like this as of yet is NOT a valid argument, because this IS still CGL we are talking about here . .
Who do NOT release Errata that they already have and which they okayed to be included in the german books for printing because . . well . . yes, simply because . .

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that (1) claims to be incompatible with all letters except B and (2) claims to be incompatible with all letters. Thus (2) is incompatible with B because B is a letter. There is no implying here at all because (2) says it is incompatible with letters. That's something very important that you left out in your example which completely changed the scenario.

I'll go one better.

If A says that it is incompatible with all wefas except kurgles, and B says that it is incompatible with all wefas, then I can work out through simple logic that B is incompatible with a kurgle, despite having no idea what a wefa or kurgle is.

Edit: And I'm not going to get into a discussion about the quality of erratas, it is irrelevant, the rule is the rule until it is changed, and right now the rule is exactly as I described above.