[X] My Assistant

[Vuron]

Wired should be essence costly for the first level as it's invasive surgery, with discounts for each additional upgrade as presumably most of the upgrade is accomplished with upgrading the neural interface. Yes some part of levels 2-3 probably involves upgrades of the transmission fibers/superconductors driving the system but honestly the big cost should be upfront.

If you went with a declining scale you would do something like

Wired 1 - Essence 1.5
Wired 2 - Essence 2.5
Wired 3 - Essence 3.25

In addition I'd give wired reflexes the + rating to dodge rating because honestly if you are moving hella fast you should be harder to hit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Further I'd probably make Move By Wire be a modular upgrade for Wired Reflexes as it could easily use the same pathways established by the wired reflexes enhancement. Skill wires would be at reduced essence cost and the whole combo would have a cyberware suite discount.

MBW 1 (Wired 1 = 1.5, SkillWires 2 = .2, Reaction Enhancer 1 = .3) x0.9 = 1.8
MBW 2 (Wired 2 = 2.5, SkillWires 4 = .4, Reaction Enhancer 2 = .6) x0.9 = 3.15
MBW 3 (Wired 3 = 3.25 SkillWires 5 =.5, Reaction Enhancer 3 = .9) x0.9 = 4.185

It's a slight downgrade from by the book because it's incompatible with further levels of reaction enhancer but honestly that's not that big of a deal. The essence discount still makes it worthwhile. Furthermore since you don't have to yank out your wired reflexes but are in effect upgrading a previous investment the upgrade process from Wired to MBW is much less costly in terms of monetary resources.

I'd also give the dodge boost to other forms of IP enhancers (Synaptic, Adept Powers, etc) I'm not sure about giving it for stuff like drugs.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Wired should be essence costly for the first level as it's invasive surgery, with discounts for each additional upgrade as presumably most of the upgrade is accomplished with upgrading the neural interface. Yes some part of levels 2-3 probably involves upgrades of the transmission fibers/superconductors driving the system but honestly the big cost should be upfront.

That makes an assumption that essence loss is based on how much you replace, which isn't the case as seen by bone replacement.

In addition I'd give wired reflexes the + rating to dodge rating because honestly if you are moving hella fast you should be harder to hit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Which is already accomplished by an increase to reaction. All that does is devalue MBW, especially if you give it to other IP enhancements as well.

All you're really doing is making low IP characters less and less viable.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Given that everyone will have IP enhancement, and the huge power of that in combat, will it help to also give them Dodge dice? Maybe make that another component of the MBW suite. Making cyber better shouldn't be the same as 'power creep'. It's a big problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I already addressed the consumer camera (2010) versus sensor camera (2070) question. Still, since you ask, no; you're not looking through the sensor, even with an SLR. I hardly see how it's on me to say what the handeheld sensors look like. What the book certainly doesn't say they look like is binoculars. You could construct something like that, but as I said, there's no reason to assume that opinion is better.

--
*shrug* I get all my recording needs from the trivially-cheap simrig anyway, so it literally doesn't matter to me at all.

Never said my opinion was better, all I said was that it was an option that can be used, Since a Standard Pair of Binoculars cannot support a Camera. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

As for the Simrig... Yes, it is a trivially cheap option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Vuron]

That makes an assumption that essence loss is based on how much you replace, which isn't the case as seen by bone replacement.

Granted essence loss exists mainly as a balancing mechanism but each additional IP gives a diminishing rate of return already. Wired 1 is a 100% improvement over unenhanced, Wired 2 is a 50% improvement over Wired 1. Wired 3 is a 33% improvement over Wired 2. It's not like Wired 3 gives you additional passes at the beginning (like Shadowrun has worked in the past), IP 4 comes at the end.

Bone lacing is also fairly invasive surgery, I personally think it's been over-costed across all editions of the game but even if you assume nanites depositing the latticework all over the body, that's a ton of foreign material for the system to deal with. If it's more traditional surgical implantation that's a ton of freaking cutting to implant all that lacing.

Which is already accomplished by an increase to reaction. All that does is devalue MBW, especially if you give it to other IP enhancements as well.

All you're really doing is making low IP characters less and less viable.

Personally I'd prefer the dodge bonus be jettisoned entirely, as I don't really like the reasoning behind it, but if you must have it I don't see why other IP enhancers don't offer a similar advantage because basically we are talking about moving fast enough that a shooter has a hard to drawing a bead on your position. I don't really see why MBW should be a special case.

Beyond that my main goal is to make the higher levels of Wired more reasonable. At current there really is no reason for including Wired 3 because it's cost-benefit vs stuff like MBW simply make it uncompetitive. This modification reduces the costs overall and makes the upgrade process for mundanes less resource intensive.

As to the low IP character viability, I already feel like 2 IPs pretty much is the minimum for being "decent" in live fire situations. Mages can get by with being slow because they can somewhat reliably generate a one hit kill/disable spell even if it means they are taking a bunch of drain. Single IP mundanes should leap for cover when the bullets start flying and the bodies hit the floor.

As a concession though I wonder how problematic it would be to allow Drugs based IP boosts to stack with augmentations if you included an overstress mechanism. That way a Wired 1 NPC could boost to +2 IPs, Wired 2 to +3 IPs etc. I kinda like the idea of having an overdrive button (yes edge can function as an overdrive as well) that allows PCs and NPCs to upgrade their threat level.

[Vuron]

*shrug* Given that everyone will have IP enhancement, and the huge power of that in combat, will it help to also give them Dodge dice? Maybe make that another component of the MBW suite. Making cyber better shouldn't be the same as 'power creep'. It's a big problem.

Honestly I didn't want to come up with a half assed guess of what an additional dodge dice should cost essence-wise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Re: bone lacing, Essence cost is usually about neurological integration, not gross 'invasiveness'.

[Irion]

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

Adepts get 4IPs, with a fairly hefty investment, and can compensate for the overspecialisation with some ware.
Mages get 4IPs, with a moderate investment (sustaining focus 3, and cast with edge)
Mysads get 4IPs (with two possible ways), moderate to hefty investment.
Hackers/TMs... well, they get VR IPs, and can rig. Even so, the second best hackers are again adepts.

For adepts it depends on how much optional rules you are using. With WotA and Geas(spelling might be off) you may have it for 2 Points right on Chargen. (Which I would not call a hefty investment.

Mages on the other hand, you are just mistaken. First of all you would need a force 4 sustaining foci to get the 4 hits needed in order to get 4 IP.
(Yes it just adds two but thats ok, because you pay double for the first one)
And every point of BC will drop your IPs by one. So to be safe you would need about a force of 5 to 6. Which would transalte in 60.000 cash and 12 Karma and naturally 5 Karma for the spell. (Or if you get it at chargen it would cost you 12+6+5+3=26 BP

As a mundane you might just take the move by wire 3 and be done with it. (5+20=25BP)


@Vuron

Granted essence loss exists mainly as a balancing mechanism but each additional IP gives a diminishing rate of return already. Wired 1 is a 100% improvement over unenhanced, Wired 2 is a 50% improvement over Wired 1. Wired 3 is a 33% improvement over Wired 2. It's not like Wired 3 gives you additional passes at the beginning (like Shadowrun has worked in the past), IP 4 comes at the end.

Well, but increasing something further should always be more expensive for the same step (one IP) than the first one. It is the sam with skills.
From one to two doubles your skill but still from 5 to 6 is more expensive.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

I think MBW's bonus comes from the fact that you can move much more randomly, change direction much more quickly than what is allowed by simply moving faster because it operates off you being in constant seizure.

And diminishing returns are questionable at best. Just because you've already been given 1 million dollars doesn't mean being given another 1 million dollars is any less. Similarly just because you've been given 1 bonus IP already doesn't make another bonus IP any less of an extra IP. And you're right, they aren't as valuable since they don't come at the start of an IP, but after the first turn of combat that is entirely irrelevant.

[Irion]

@Ghost_in_the_System
As a matter of fact, I do not care a bit, honestly.
The idea to keep the first two cheap is to give the avarage sam a hint on what to take.
Yes linear cost like the synaptic booster would have been nice, but anyway.

As a matter of fact, the increase stays the same. It is one additional IP.

And diminishing returns are questionable at best. Just because you've already been given 1 million dollars doesn't mean being given another 1 million dollars is any less.

Of course only after a certain threshold.

[suoq]

Re: bone lacing, Essence cost is usually about neurological integration, not gross 'invasiveness'.

My impression was that it was random.

If it was about neurological integration, a datajack for .1 essence compared to 1 point of dermal plating at .5 essence makes no sense. On the other hand I can't see how an internal air tank isn't "gross invasiveness" and that's only .25. Even a datajack and a internal air tank combined don't even come close to the control rig (.5) so heaven only knows how that works.

[Dakka Dakka]

Essence is based on the value of the implant, as Ess is mainly a balancing tool

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

For adepts it depends on how much optional rules you are using. With WotA and Geas(spelling might be off) you may have it for 2 Points right on Chargen. (Which I would not call a hefty investment.

True enough, not hefty, however, both are officially optional, so... YMMV. And, they are just as vulnerable to BC, unless you have other powers to disable.

Mages on the other hand, you are just mistaken. First of all you would need a force 4 sustaining foci to get the 4 hits needed in order to get 4 IP.
(Yes it just adds two but thats ok, because you pay double for the first one)
And every point of BC will drop your IPs by one. So to be safe you would need about a force of 5 to 6. Which would transalte in 60.000 cash and 12 Karma and naturally 5 Karma for the spell. (Or if you get it at chargen it would cost you 12+6+5+3=26 BP

This is not correct. The sustaining focus only allows a force 3 spell, but if you cast the spell with edge, the net hits from edge dice aren't included in that limit. Hence, it is easily possible to get 4IPs simply by casting the spell into the focus at some point and just leaving it in there. You might spend some additional edge until you get it right... (With special care to not walk through barriers, etc, and hopefully taking care not to be attacked from the astral.)
And there are still the other options mages get: Spirit of Man trick, etc. At some point you can simply dump 10+ karma into a quickened spell and be fairly certain that it will always win against barriers and dispellers.

As a mundane you might just take the move by wire 3 and be done with it. (5+20=25BP)

Except you can't, because it's got availability 25 (and F!), whereas restricted gear only works until 20. This is the whole problem of mundanes. They simply cannot get that 4th IP without Synaptic Boosters at chargen - even with high-power chargen options such as 750karma.

[Epicedion]

That Force 3 plus Edge exploit is purely awful.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except you can't, because it's got availability 25 (and F!), whereas restricted gear only works until 20. This is the whole problem of mundanes. They simply cannot get that 4th IP without Synaptic Boosters at chargen - even with high-power chargen options such as 750karma.

But you can get Wired 3 at Chargen... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Vuron]

I think MBW's bonus comes from the fact that you can move much more randomly, change direction much more quickly than what is allowed by simply moving faster because it operates off you being in constant seizure.

The fluff description has consistently suggested that MBW users are exceedingly graceful and smooth moving because the MBW is constantly correcting for instability. That grace and speed probably mean that you can dodge more effectively both by avoiding relatively slow moving objects like melee weapons and by juking and jiving like crazy to avoid getting hit by fast moving projectiles (I assume that even at 4 IPs nobody is doing Neo style bullet dodging antics- of course YMMV).

And diminishing returns are questionable at best. Just because you've already been given 1 million dollars doesn't mean being given another 1 million dollars is any less. Similarly just because you've been given 1 bonus IP already doesn't make another bonus IP any less of an extra IP. And you're right, they aren't as valuable since they don't come at the start of an IP, but after the first turn of combat that is entirely irrelevant.

Diminishing Marginal Utility is a real concept though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway the point is that wired as they currently exist are priced incorrectly. Because Wired 3 is such a bad deal in terms of it's essence cost and physical cost in combat utility it's simply not in the game in any meaningful way. The solution is to either discount the essence cost thereby increasing marginal utility in comparison to other options, or decrease physical costs so that it's more attractive as an initial investment. My thought is that -5 Essence is simple too expensive in terms of the limited number of choices open to a PC at chargen and thus you need to bring the essence more in line with it's utility.

[sabs]

So here's something interesting:

Wired Reflexes 2: 3 essence
Skillwires 4 (.8 essence)
Move by Wire 2: 3 essence

Move by Wire is the same essence cost as Wired Reflexes, and gives you for free: +2 reaction +1 dodge, and skillwires = 2, 4, or 5 depending on the level of move by wire.

Wired Reflexes gives you +1 reaction

[Dakka Dakka]

I think it has already been established that the MBW is the more advanced form of Initiative Enhancement.

[sabs]

Wired reflexes 3 is available at chargen for 100k
But I can get MBW 2 for 3.6 and 42K

It really seems liked Wired Reflexes needs either a serious cost reduction, or a slight essence reduction.

lets say down to 1/2/4
Which means that with second hand I can get them for 1.2/2.4/4.8 and as low as 50k

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Anyway the point is that wired as they currently exist are priced incorrectly. Because Wired 3 is such a bad deal in terms of it's essence cost and physical cost in combat utility it's simply not in the game in any meaningful way.

There is alot of stuff that falls into this category, just because something is an option doesn't mean you have to take it or that the option has to be optimal. If every choice is optimal, there is no point in making choices.

[Vuron]

So here's something interesting:

Wired Reflexes 2: 3 essence
Skillwires 4 (.8 essence)
Move by Wire 2: 3 essence

Move by Wire is the same essence cost as Wired Reflexes, and gives you for free: +2 reaction +1 dodge, and skillwires = 2, 4, or 5 depending on the level of move by wire.

Wired Reflexes gives you +1 reaction

In effect MBW is Wired + Reaction Enhancers (plus you can get up to 3 more) + skillwires + dodge bonus. It's a pretty significant package deal.

MBW 1 is paying a premium for the essence discount. Purchased separately the systems would cost 2.7 essence and 25k if we ignore the dodge cost (which is hard to guesstimate). Basically a 25k mark up. In many ways the value of +2 IPs makes MBW 1 inferior to Wired 2 at chargen.

MBW 2 purchased separately would cost 4.4 essence and 60k. So an essence discount of 1.4 for a markup of 25k (same as the MBW markup). Really makes the MBW shine.

MBW 3 purchased seperately would cost 6.9 essence and 140k. Essence discount of 1.9 (which is huge) for a markup of 35k. MBW 3 is the upgrade of choice. Of course it's not available at chargen.

Factor in second hand discounts and the relative value of MBW vs Wired really makes Wired seem lackluster. Wired 2 isn't horribad but it's an early trade-in.

[Vuron]

There is alot of stuff that falls into this category, just because something is an option doesn't mean you have to take it or that the option has to be optimal. If every choice is optimal, there is no point in making choices.

From a game balance perspective this isn't really a great design though.

If a PC has a finite pool of resources (money, essence, etc) the non-optimal options will simply put them at a competitive disadvantage vs other players or the opposition. I'm not saying that everyone has to play char op characters all the time and indeed the game seems to break down around the edges when everyone is fielding ridiculous dice pools for every combat action, but that in order to make the game accessible designers should avoid incorporating trap options.

Options that don't measure up should either be eliminated like cyberware phones from 1e (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) or should be reduced in cost so that they are priced according to their utility.

Wired's cost in relation to the other options is simply too high. The essence cost vs the utility of the MBW system is too high and while the bioware option is incredibly costly the utility of low essence impact especially on awakened characters shouldn't be underestimated.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wired reflexes 3 is available at chargen for 100k
But I can get MBW 2 for 3.6 and 42K

It really seems liked Wired Reflexes needs either a serious cost reduction, or a slight essence reduction.

lets say down to 1/2/4
Which means that with second hand I can get them for 1.2/2.4/4.8 and as low as 50k

And I can get Wired 3 Second Hand for 3.6 Essence and 50K. And Wired 2 Second Hand is 2.4 Essence and 16K.
Not sure what your point is.

[sabs]

How are you getting Wired 3 second hand for 3.6 essence.. ?

Right now 2nd hand Wired 3, would be 6 essence for 50k. (ie not possible)

[Stahlseele]

Alpha it? O.o
Or maybe even Beta?
Beta Used Wired 3 for 200k?