[X] My Assistant

[sabs]

Alpha it? O.o
Or maybe even Beta?
Beta Used Wired 3 for 200k?

1) You can't do used and beta.
2) That's not 50K
3) Alpha Used Wired 3 would be 4.8 essence, and 100k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

You can't combine used and beta.

[Spanky_Harrison]

There is alot of stuff that falls into this category, just because something is an option doesn't mean you have to take it or that the option has to be optimal. If every choice is optimal, there is no point in making choices.

That is absolutely wrong.

Having one option be clearly better than the other (Boosters vs any other initiative enhancement) is what eliminates choices.

If your choice is between "The good thing, and the crappy thing" then you have no choice.

Ideally, all options will be optimal, but in different ways. Synaptic boosters are essence friendly, but cost a mountain of cash. Alternatively, Wires only cost a few months salary, but cost you an actual arm and a leg. (so to speak) Assuming that these costs are balanced against each other, they both become valid choices, but are still different.

As it stands, it almost doesn't matter how cheap the wires are, 5 essence is just too much. Deltaware makes wires workable, but then they cost too much money, because basic boosters are just as good for 1/4th the cost in nuyen, and still save you a whole point of essence.

Currently, the balance between the nuyen and essence costs between Wires, MbW, and Synaptic Boosters are completely out of whack, and that reduces choices. If you want 4 IP's, then there is no choice, you take boosters.


As for why MbW gives dodge, I view it as more of a specific function of that system. As we know, MbW mimics the Fly-by-Wire system used in aircraft by putting your body into a state of constant seizure (an unstable airframe) and then regulating those seizures to create extremely quick, smooth motion.

However, another important aspect of that is that it fundamentally changes the way your nervous system works. Wires and boosters make your nervous system faster, MbW actually changes the way you move.

Essentially, when you flinch away from something with wires/boosters, you just do it faster. When you flinch away from something using MbW, the system translates it into a smooth evasion.

[Mäx]

3) Alpha Used Wired 3 would be 4.8 essence, and 100k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually 5 essence and 100K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Having one option be clearly better than the other (Boosters vs any other initiative enhancement) is what eliminates choices.

If your choice is between "The good thing, and the crappy thing" then you have no choice.

Well luckily thats not really the case.
Yes 5 essence is almost all you have, but 240K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is also pretty much all of your cash in chargen.
Alpha wired 3 are "only" 4 essence and are still 40K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) cheaper then the booster.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Actually 5 essence and 100K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Sadly no, Used Alpha gives an essence discount for no nuyen cost and is perhaps one of the stupidest things I've ever seen added to a system since the book actually points out that this is how it works.

[Mäx]

Sadly no, Used Alpha gives an essence discount for no nuyen cost and is perhaps one of the stupidest things I've ever seen added to a system since the book actually points out that this is how it works.

Thats is actually a mistake in the book, the modifiers should be added together before applying them to the base cost.

[sabs]

Nicola is looking for some high-class muscle replacement
for her character Clutterbone, but since she’s short
on nuyen, she decides to defy the bad reputation of secondhand
cyberware and tries to acquire a Rating 2 alphaware
muscle replacement implant.
The base Essence cost of the implant would be 1.92
(the original 2 Essence cost for Rating 2 muscle replacement
x 0.8 for alphaware grade x 1.2 for the second-hand
state of the implant), while the Availability would be 9R
(10R for the original implant,–1 for being second-hand)
and the cost 10,000¥ (10,000¥ x 2 x 0.5).

Stupid Augmentation book

[Spanky_Harrison]

Well luckily thats not really the case.
Yes 5 essence is almost all you have, but 240K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is also pretty much all of your cash in chargen.
Alpha wired 3 are "only" 4 essence and are still 40K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) cheaper then the booster.

The difference there is that while 240k is pretty much all of your starting cash, 5 essence is most of what you have forever.

Sure you can recover some of that essence by upgrading to higher grades of 'ware. But the problem here is that you are, at that point, much better off just upgrading to basic synaptic boosters, cause its vastly cheaper in both nuyen and essence compared to beta grade wires.

[Spanky_Harrison]

Thats is actually a mistake in the book, the modifiers should be added together before applying them to the base cost.

Ok, seriously, is there an official errata or something on this? Because I keep hearing it both ways, and I have no idea how this is supposed to work.

[Mäx]

Ok, seriously, is there an official errata or something on this? Because I keep hearing it both ways, and I have no idea how this is supposed to work.

Sadly the English version of the errata have never been released and is apparently missing currently after the resent troubles.
But if you care to search these forums, you can find multiple mentions of what i said to be in it from top devs, of that time.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

But you can get Wired 3 at Chargen... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now.... how did I miss that. Maybe I just looked at 5 essence and though, crap, not worth it.

Nicola is looking for some high-class muscle replacement
for her character Clutterbone, but since she’s short
on nuyen, she decides to defy the bad reputation of secondhand
cyberware and tries to acquire a Rating 2 alphaware
muscle replacement implant.
The base Essence cost of the implant would be 1.92
(the original 2 Essence cost for Rating 2 muscle replacement
x 0.8 for alphaware grade x 1.2 for the second-hand
state of the implant), while the Availability would be 9R
(10R for the original implant,–1 for being second-hand)
and the cost 10,000¥ (10,000¥ x 2 x 0.5).

Stupid Augmentation book

Well... I don't see why it shouldn't work like that. It makes sense, and without this having used alpha makes no sense. With this normal cyber makes no sense. What you need to do is not change that rule, it's change the multipliers to actually differ. (So that used alpha is a little more expensive and a little better than regular, not just a little better.)

[Vuron]

Ok, seriously, is there an official errata or something on this? Because I keep hearing it both ways, and I have no idea how this is supposed to work.

I'd be curious as well. Augmentation leaves a pretty clear example of how it should be done.

Augmentation uses Base Cost x .8 (alpha) x 1.2 (used). Yes a 0.04 essence discount for no cost differential is stupid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) Personally I think second hand should be limited to base ware instead of custom cyberware (which should be custom for each user) but oh well.

Currently there is absolutely no reason to no start with used alpha for everything but cultured bioware.

[Dakka Dakka]

The reason may be that standard ware is simply obsolete. Even with having been in another body before Alphaware is still better. As to why it isn't more expensive than bnew standard ware, this may be because people are put off by the fact that the implants have been in another person before, possibly one that died. What I really don't get is the fact that used ware is more readily available.

Don't forget that standard as well as alphaware are off the rack. Theys are not designed for a certain individual, except for cultured Bioware.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How are you getting Wired 3 second hand for 3.6 essence.. ?

Right now 2nd hand Wired 3, would be 6 essence for 50k. (ie not possible)

Duh... Yep, Brain Fart, not sure what I was thinking there... Sorry.
But if you were Biocompatible, it would be less than 6 Essence... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

MBW 2 purchased separately would cost 4.4 essence and 60k. So an essence discount of 1.4 for a markup of 25k (same as the MBW markup). Really makes the MBW shine.

Just to be clear, you can get Wired Reflexes II at alpha and Reaction Enhancers 2 for the exact same essence as MBW2, slightly less nuyen, and no Restricted Gear.

Since the dodge bonus isn't much of a bonus if you're going the Athletics/CloseCombat route, you end up buying Restricted Gear for a free skillwires 2. For me the limitations on skillwires 2 don't make them worth it, even at that cheap price. I'd rather spend a point of edge, add my edge dice and let 6's explode then load the activesoft for (at most) 3 more dice (because you can't edge the skillwires - best you can do is buy the skillwire expert system to allow edge to be spent on a reroll).

Note: If you're playing a smuggler ignore the above. The skillwires as a replacement for Mechanical skills alone make a decent trade off, even after buying the activesofts. But for people whose primary interest is in reaction and IP's, MBW isn't all that shiny.

[KCKitsune]

Suoq, MBW 2 gives Skillwires at rating 4. If you customize it for yourself, you can get 5 dice for the skill in question.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Suoq, MBW 2 gives Skillwires at rating 4. If you customize it for yourself, you can get 5 dice for the skill in question.

Indeed... Skillwires 4 is pretty good. Especially with the Skillwire Expert System, and Customized Chips. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Vuron]

Just to be clear, you can get Wired Reflexes II at alpha and Reaction Enhancers 2 for the exact same essence as MBW2, slightly less nuyen, and no Restricted Gear.

Since the dodge bonus isn't much of a bonus if you're going the Athletics/CloseCombat route, you end up buying Restricted Gear for a free skillwires 2. For me the limitations on skillwires 2 don't make them worth it, even at that cheap price. I'd rather spend a point of edge, add my edge dice and let 6's explode then load the activesoft for (at most) 3 more dice (because you can't edge the skillwires - best you can do is buy the skillwire expert system to allow edge to be spent on a reroll).

Note: If you're playing a smuggler ignore the above. The skillwires as a replacement for Mechanical skills alone make a decent trade off, even after buying the activesofts. But for people whose primary interest is in reaction and IP's, MBW isn't all that shiny.

Alpha Wired 2 = 64,000 Essence 2.4
Reaction 2 = 20,000 Essence .6

1k discount and you don't have skillwire 4 (not skillwire 2). Now activesofts do cost a decent amount of money but the ability to chip rating 4 active skill is pretty nice. Need to be a wheelman for run, or need a specialized skill, an active soft plus a decent attribute score can net you a decent dice pool instead of being forced to default. I suspect for many people that flexibility is worth the slight increase in costs.

Of course when you compare used alpha Wired 2 + used alpha Reaction Enhancer vs used alpha MBW the costs shift in favor of the Used Alpha MBW

Used Alpha Wired 2 = 32,000 Essence 2.88
Used Alpha Reaction 2 = 20,000 Essence .576

Used Alpha MBW 2 = 50,000 Essence 2.88

So for less money and less essence you get the same +2 IP and +4 Reaction plus free alpha skillwires 4 + dodge boost.

Granted this merely illustrates why Used Alpha is a wonky addition to the game.

[suoq]

My bad on the skillwires being 4 instead of 2. Still not impressed. It makes it more of a decent trade off, but I don't think it "shines". A rating 4 activesoft is 40 grand so being a wheelman by using a pilot groundcar 4 chip for a run simply isn't cost effective unless you're pirating your softs.

Even with the correction, I'd still prefer the Wired Reflexes II at alpha and Reaction Enhancers 2 over the MBW2 unless:
1) I had a specific 2 skills I want to use but not improve or ever use edge on. (Cost = 21 BP (5 extra MBW, 8 BP each for the activesoft) vs 32 BP for actual skills that can be edged and improved)
2) It's not going to put me past the 250,000 limit. (MBW 2 & 2 skills @ 4 = 165,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) total.) I'm not buying Born Rich to pay for this because then #1 is a losing deal.

I'm even more likely to bite the essence cost and get them both at standard until I need the essence for something.

For a smuggler, I can see it. For roleplaying purposes I can see it. Maybe you have a specific character concept that it works for just as well, but otherwise I see it as an expensive that isn't going to be recovered.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

It does seem like a bummer that skillsofts are so expensive... takes away all the advantages, IMHO.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yeah, it balances out a bit better on chargen BP costs, but it doesn't take into account much the fact that it does require skillwires and eats up a huge chunk of your available resources and are virtually impossible to afford outside of chargen.

[Wakshaani]

It would just be nice if there were reasonable tradeoffs, I'm sure everyone agrees. Cost, Essence, power, and then minor perks like concealability, or the ability to be removed. Cyber is meant to be the cheap/dirty corner of the triangle, bio's the costly/clean, … and no, we don't really have the rest of that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, there're a few legs in that stool.

GEAR: Cheapest, easily broken or lost, no essence.
CYBER: Cheap, durable, easy to spot, heavy essence.
BIO: Medium, limited, nigh-invisible, low essence.
NANO: Pricey, rare, weird, low essence.
GENE: Priciest, rare, non-diverse, lowest essence.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah. There are also lots of gaps and holes, which isn't inherently bad. What's bad is the places where bio's cheaper than cyber, etc.

[PoliteMan]

It does seem like a bummer that skillsofts are so expensive... takes away all the advantages, IMHO.

Skillsofts, pirated software, seems to work ok but the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1000 a month to keep it up is painful.

[LurkerOutThere]

It does seem like a bummer that skillsofts are so expensive... takes away all the advantages, IMHO.

It's like being SR4 and SR4A they sat down and said "WOA! Something that cyber does well, lets throw an artificial price inflation at it so a piece of software to drive a car costs more then the car itself.