[X] My Assistant

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

It's like being SR4 and SR4A they sat down and said "WOA! Something that cyber does well, lets throw an artificial price inflation at it so a piece of software to drive a car costs more then the car itself.

Yeah, it does kind of diminish the 'cheap skilled labor' aspect a bit if a decent skillsoft costs more than you expect the employee to make in a year. Of course I suppose corps don't really have to pay for individual skillsofts so long as they make them themselves.

1k a month to keep up a pirated skillsoft is a bit much, but if you're a hacker you can spoof your lifestyle and take it out of that. Makes skillsoft somewhat more reasonable.

I think they'd have been better off leaving the price alone and saying you can't pirate skillsofts, as I think that is where the real problem kicked in when people were getting skills for 300 nuyen/rating, especially if they only needed them for one off things (No pilot in the group for the once in a campaign air mission? No problem.) I figure that is what caused the kneejerk reaction with the cost increase. They're actually fairly reasonable (5k to pirate then 1k a month to maintain isn't bad for a 5 skill) when pirating, but are basically out of anyone's reach otherwise.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, it's literally zero cost for the software for the corps, and yeah, skillware was (hell, is) being abused pretty badly. Unless that's what you want the world to look like. *shrug* It should be capped lower, for one thing: people can get effectively a 5, after all. In addition, they work for all skills (physical, mental, whatever), which is a problem to me fluff-wise, but it's also a missed opportunity balance-wise.

[Hida Tsuzua]

SR4's price was too low, SR4A's is too high. My off of the guess is Rating x 5000. That's 20,000Y per rating 4 skillsoft. That's a skill every 2-4 adventures which is about the same rate (or slightly faster) for buying up your skills with karma. Basically you're just doubling your skill gain rate at that point with a modest initial investment.

If you can pirate, skillsofts are really nice especially since you can then copy to your teammates.

As for Wired Reflexes 3 and MBW3, I'll reduce their essence cost to 4. You can fit most of the stuff you'll care about in the remaining 2 essence with biocompatibility, alphaware, and adapsin. I'll reduce the price of MBW3 mainly because +6 reaction is likely going to waste (unless you had 3 reaction which is an odd value to start for a guy who's getting MBW3). Also skillsoft 5 isn't as good as going from skillwires 2 from 4.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

5k/rating is what I've put in my personal 'if I ever GM' ruleset, along with them being unable to be copied, cracked, or pirated (Moving is still an option)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

5k/rating is what I've put in my personal 'if I ever GM' ruleset, along with them being unable to be copied, cracked, or pirated (Moving is still an option)

I don't think making a software "not piratable" is the solution, here.

I think the best way would be to make a distinction between "generic" skillsofts, which give a max of 3 dice and are incompatible with expert systems, and then have adapted special softs that have a max limit of 6. Generic softs are cheap and can be copied, they are what is used for semi-skilled labour, but should also be sufficient for simple tasks a runner might not want to hire someone for. Adapted softs are taylored, or calibrated, to the user, and hence its no use to copy them, and they are also more expensive as they need special facilities to be created. A copied special soft can only give 3 dice to just anyone.

Basic skillsofts should cost 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating, and adapted softs 10000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating as SR4A.

That way low skill ratings are easily obtainable, but true skills still makes one an expert in his field. However, with enough cash, high skill ratings are possible from softs. (The special customization option to get one more dice remains available.)

[Teulisch]

i suspect the increase in skillsoft cost may be a response to the software piracy rules. if you can get skillsofts for 10%, those activesofts get a lot more affordable, even if they do degrade.

with the drop in cost for improved reflexes (which have always mirrored the cost of wired reflexes in the past), i think it would be balanced to give the same price-break to the essence cost for wired reflexes. A lot of the essence costs we have now have been grandfathered in from the old editions, and have not seen any re-balancing as 20 years of technology improvement march by.

[sabs]

skillsofts have a limit of 4.. not 6..
Skillsofts can be optimized to give a +1 diepool bonus, effectively being rating 5 (except for things that count rating)

You can never ever have a rating 6 skillsoft.

A Pirated Skillsoft could have all sorts of horrible horrible things in it that would scare the crap out of me.
Psychotropics, limitations, tracers..

[Mäx]

A lot of the essence costs we have now have been grandfathered in from the old editions, and have not seen any re-balancing as 20 years of technology improvement march by.

Essence cost might have styed the same, but the price has gone down a whole lot, you can now get betaware wired 3 for 25% cheaper then standard rating ones 20 years ago and that only has an essence cost 0f 3,5.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

You can also only get 25% of the max starting cash, so I think SR might have just gone through deflation.

[Dakka Dakka]

And maximum starting resources have been reduced to 25% of what was allowed in SR3, I don't know about older editions.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

skillsofts have a limit of 4.

Another thing I missed... but you are right, of course.

So what do I need rating 5 skillwires for, then? (Yes, I know I can then slot more lower rating skillsofts...)

[Yerameyahu]

… That's the answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If that horrible +1 option is being used, though, they're all 5. That's just too high. Best to remove it, or limit them all to 3.

[LurkerOutThere]

The thing is skillwires already have a downside(s), they require essence costing cyberware, you can't spend edge they have lower caps etc etc. I'm not sure why folks felt they needed further nerfing but it seems pretty sufficient to me.

[Yerameyahu]

That's kind of the point. Rating 5 (4+1, but same thing) isn't a significantly lower cap, except for the 2 skills that an expert might have that high, and you can spend Edge (not that you need to) using 2 different options. Either skillwires should be much worse than real skill, or they should be very expensive. Obviously. So they tried making them very expensive. It doesn't help that they can be pirated, copied, etc.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

My list of rules is getting long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

That's kind of the point. Rating 5 (4+1, but same thing) isn't a significantly lower cap, except for the 2 skills that an expert might have that high, and you can spend Edge (not that you need to) using 2 different options. Either skillwires should be much worse than real skill, or they should be very expensive. Obviously. So they tried making them very expensive. It doesn't help that they can be pirated, copied, etc.

I'm actually kind of curious why you feel this way. I'll agree letting someone slot up a level 5 does seem excessive but other then that considering for example magic can do similar boosts to traits skillwires at least in concept doesn't seem that overpowered.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Skillwires should just allow you to spend edge normally. I know they wanted some sort of "you aren't really using the skill!" penalty. But at a reasonable price (likely 3000Y to 5000Y per rating), they're good enough. The other option would to make the skillwires system itself cost more and make the skillsofts cheap.

Now that I think about it, rating x 1000 skillsofts with Rating x 10000Y wires would likely be better. 40000Y isn't trivial, but it's well into the affordable range especially for mundanes. Then just grab whatever wires you want for a smaller price. You'll have to change up MBWs some though. I could see going cheaper on the skillwires though.

I'll also like to remove piracy. Balancewise it's a wash due to the mess that is the Matrix. But the mechanic is weird, a big reward for those who know about it and get it to work, and odd from a fluff standpoint ("I have to pay for my pirated ware? I just got the latest song for free with piracy!"). I would rather just make programs cheaper/easier to code than have it be "yeah if you read this one section and wait till after creation to get them, you can get 90% savings for 99.9% of all campaigns ever."

[Dakka Dakka]

I totally agree that the piracy rules are weird. Where does it say that pirated software cannot be acquired during CharGen? Actually buying legal full price hacking software is a whole other can of worms.

[Yerameyahu]

I guess I don't understand, LurkerOutThere. It's basic balance: investment, payoff. Skillwires shouldn't cost unreasonably less resources (BP or Karma/Nuyen) than real skills, unless they're much less good. I feel like they're *not* much less good, therefore they shouldn't cost less.

Every Rating 5 (or you could stipulate 4, I guess) skill is 20 BP, or 4+4+6+8+10=32 Karma, right? That's 100,000¥ (or 80,000¥ if Karma=2500¥). Skillwires cost up to 10,000¥ (more if you want to spend less than 1 Essence), and skillsofts are either 40000+3000 (Personalized), 43000¥ each… or 4300¥ each, paying a little (bi-)monthly. (Fully tricked out skillsofts with DIMAP and Pluscode are 49000, quite the bargain.)

So, that's 2 Rating 5 skills for about the same cost of real skills if you don't pirate… or like 10 Rating 5 skills that you can swap out as a Free action and run *eight* at a time on your skillwires 4, and still use the main function of Edge (rerolls). That's what I meant. If you incorporate a MBW setup, you even save some Essence. There are even people who argue specializations work with skillsofts (at the cost of 6 BP/6 Karma).

[sabs]

between customized, and PLUSCOD you can get effectively Rating 5 skills, that cost you 1 slot. Meaning you can run 8 or 10 at once, depending if you have Rating 4 or 5 skillwires.

All for the low low price of 60K each.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I'll also like to remove piracy. Balancewise it's a wash due to the mess that is the Matrix. But the mechanic is weird, a big reward for those who know about it and get it to work, and odd from a fluff standpoint ("I have to pay for my pirated ware? I just got the latest song for free with piracy!"). I would rather just make programs cheaper/easier to code than have it be "yeah if you read this one section and wait till after creation to get them, you can get 90% savings for 99.9% of all campaigns ever."

I would disagree. Generally game balance is pretty horrible already, so it serves as a poor argument. And at least pirated software gives hackers a fat portfolio to use, fairly quickly. Also, availability doesn't change by pirating, so you can't get more than R4 mostly.
Also, it evens the playing field on the matrix side between corps that technically should always have the best rating software everywhere, and runners who have to scrounge every penny. While it does produce a power-creep, to the effect that basically the "low-level" play that SR4 had intended to re-introduce after the super-powered SR3 characters, with it hackers can again rule the matrix.

IMHO the only way to avoid issues with software in general is to change the hacking mechanic entirely, i.e. removing software, and replacing it with attribute+skill tests as long as you have DNI. Sort of a direct neural hacking mechanic. That would be, incidentally, again a piece of cyberware worth buying. It also makes technomancers obsolete, but... Let's say....

[ Spoiler ]

Neuromancer Interface
This form of advanced DNI interface allows hackers to generate binary code directly with their brain, circumventing the need for programs. It was designed as a counter to technomancers - unfortunately it often put corporate hackers at a disadvantage, since an average joe hacker could not muster the necessary mental faculties to fully make use of it. It thrives with genius, however.
The Neuromancer interface allows a hacker to replace programs with his mental statistics. <<Details not hashed out>>. The limits imposed by the hacker's comlink still apply, since the comlink has to translate the neural signals to workable binary code. The Neuromancer Interface can be used in AR and VR.

Cost: 50K
Essence Cost: 1.5
Availability: 12F

Hmm... that's not perfect, and ADDs to the mumbo-jumbo of matrix rules. However, it would have been better to reduce the importance of programs anyway...

As to skillwires and balance:
I think a design goal has to be defined, here. Either you want a world that is evolving towards slotted skills, or you want a world where slotted skills are a niche thing. IMHO once you have the things in the game, avoiding option 1 is pretty hard. The deal is to work out where you want slotted skills to appear, and where you don't want them. IMHO, there should be a deterrent on using them for combat tasks. But all other places are fine, since making a skill-monkey is already expensive enough, BP wise, and usually sacrifices combat prowess. Even the famed group skills don't stop this - in fact they make people worse in many competition situations.

IMHO, like all problems concerning skills, this could be solved by removing the hard cap on actual skills. Skills scale horribly, anyway - the average difference between a skill 3 guy and a skill 6 guy is just one hit.

[suoq]

Where does it say that pirated software cannot be acquired during CharGen?

Unwired, pg 94. Finding Pirate Networks and Downloading Programs. It's a bunch of overhead between the player and the GM and ends up requiring:
1) The player building a character with a lot of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) post character creation.
2) Someone paying the character who doesn't have the tools to do the job enough up front money to buy the tools.
3) Someone paying the character IN pirated software.
4) The team "carrying" the hacker for a first job that doesn't need one.

If there's a single part of the rules that needs to be house ruled or at least partially ignored for people to play, Unwired's software rules is it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

IMHO the only way to avoid issues with software in general is to change the hacking mechanic entirely, i.e. removing software, and replacing it with attribute+skill tests as long as you have DNI. Sort of a direct neural hacking mechanic. That would be, incidentally, again a piece of cyberware worth buying. It also makes technomancers obsolete, but... Let's say....

However, it would have been better to reduce the importance of programs anyway...

Easiest way to do that is to do what you just suggested. Use Attribute + Skill, and then cap the Hits based upon your Software Rating. It has worked wonderfully for us, and has the benefit of being an optional Rule discussed in Unwired. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

The problem with skillwires is how you view them. From a certain standpoint it makes sense that they're a crippled cap skill. From that same standpoint it would make sense that spirits and sprites would also be the same crippled capped skill. But they're not.

If you're playing in a campaign where 4-5 skill points is substantial, then skillwires are a great investment by allowing (in theory, if not in practice) someone to have a bunch of skills at 4-5 on demand. With some fiddling with activesoft prices and availability, this can become part of the campaign.

If, on the other hand, your pornomancer is throwing 30-50 dice, your dwarf mage with cerebral boosters is triplecasting stunballs, and your technomancer is bendng Neo over like a spoon, the skillwires are simply an expensive joke.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Should point out it is impossible to pirate a personalized skillsoft. Personalized skillsofts only work for the person they are personalized for, and options cannot be changed on skillsofts because they have to be added at/before purchase.