[X] My Assistant

[Hida Tsuzua]

I would disagree. Generally game balance is pretty horrible already, so it serves as a poor argument. And at least pirated software gives hackers a fat portfolio to use, fairly quickly. Also, availability doesn't change by pirating, so you can't get more than R4 mostly.
Also, it evens the playing field on the matrix side between corps that technically should always have the best rating software everywhere, and runners who have to scrounge every penny. While it does produce a power-creep, to the effect that basically the "low-level" play that SR4 had intended to re-introduce after the super-powered SR3 characters, with it hackers can again rule the matrix.

I'm not sure how you disagree here. I said the balance issues piracy causes don't matter since the matrix rules are just a mess. And then I said I wanted to reduce the price of programs, just not though the piracy rules as they stand. They're a huge advantage if you know about them and build your character around them which often means you're fairly dead weight for the first mission but way better afterwards. There's a "drawback" of a monthly cost that only serves to trip up new players who don't realize campaigns pretty much never last for 5 years in game.

Nearly any hacker worth the name can find a pirate haven. They do sadly have to waste 600Y on buying Browse 6 legally. Assuming a hacker has a browse pool of 14 (Browse 6 + Data Search 4 + PuSHeD 1 + Neocortical Nanites 3), he gets 21 hits on the extended test if you're buying hits and -1 die per pass. That can get you any Rating 6 regular or hacking program with 1-3 options (avail 12 + program rating 6 + options 1-3). If you feel like spending the 2 karma for the specialization (Cracker Underground), that's 16 dice or 28 hits. That can get you a rating 4 TacNet. If you can get up a bit higher (teamwork with someone or having analytic mind or drinking Overdrive or cyberware), you can start pirating military programs fairly easily. Now that's a lot more expensive, but doable.

So what you do is at character creation, buy a nice commlink with Browse 6 and Optimization (let's say 10000Y). Then buy a month of High Lifestyle and make sure to leave 1200Y left over to get +12 to your starting cash roll. This means worst case your starting cash is 8000Y and more like 13000Y on average. Then spend the rest of your cash as desired but don't buy other programs. That's 21200Y cost there (and honestly the commlink cost shouldn't matter because you're buying that anyways). The first run you're not as useful as you can be. Maybe you can pass as a halfway decent street samurai, face, or just rig a drone. Or you can refuse the mission and just drink. Or whatever.

Now find the cracker underground after 2 days. Buy all the programs you want for 8000Y which is equal to the lowest possible starting nuyen roll. You're just bought nearly every program at rating 6 for 29000Y. It's an especially good deal since you're just buying stuff you wanted anyways (a nice commlink and a high lifestyle at creation). If you bought the programs at creation that's 60000Y+ for just the programs alone!

The problem is this system causes huge savings if you are willing to stink for a mission. That's terrible design. It doesn't really change hacker versus the world since that's literally playing Calvinball with the GM, but if you have two hackers or whatever it does cause big differences with them. Or the power scale is thrown out under the GM's feat (since he has to build the matrix rules for himself) when the players discover how this all work when they're building their characters and he doesn't realize this.

Edit: tl;dr
Piracy rules as they exist currently are bad because a pirate hacker is build in a very bad way from a RPG design standpoint (suck now for awesome power later). It's also a non-intuitive approach in that hackers are discouraged from buying programs at creation.

[Stahlseele]

Character Creation 3/3 Group-Contact Warez Network.

[suoq]

Character Creation 3/3 Group-Contact Warez Network.

And if your table wants to house rule that as being an acceptable way of buying pirated software at character creation go for it, but as far as the rules go, I don't see how having a contact helps you get pirated software in any way unless your GM says their connectivity means they can get it, their loyalty means they'll get it for you, and your GM sets a price, same as buying any other gear through any other contact.

To put it another way, contacts can be used in game to buy gear @ >12 avail but they don't let you buy gear @ >12 avail during chargen, no matter what their connection/loyalty is.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Character Creation 3/3 Group-Contact Warez Network.

Yes that's a common houserule way to allow piracy during character creation (though I typically see the loyalty rating being lower). However, having access to the Cracker Underground isn't a contact. It's some weird special access thing. If you want to wonder why it's this is the case, ask yourself "where is the book does it says what's the connection rating and loyalty of the Cracker Underground when I just find it though google or mention the word contact?"

Honestly, I'll houserule it too if I didn't play Missions. I'll just say in big bold letters in my 90 page houserule document for Shadowrun on the start of the Matrix Houserule Chapter (pages 20-89) "Attention all Hackers and anyone else who cares about buying programs, all programs are 10% cost. There is a small monthly fee too of rating price multipler divide by 10." or something like that. Why bother with the middle men rules?

[Teulisch]

and if you save money by spoofing your lifestyle, that money gets spent on pirated software instead.

Sadly, the pirated option is mechanically better for hackers because of the problem with registration, the reduced cost is just a very nice bonus. Add in the fact that you can also get rating 4 freeware, and it only makes sense to spend ANY money when you need a rating 5 or 6 program, or a program with specific options.

of course, this is the reason why SR missions wont allow pirated software. the bookkeeping is a mess.

[suoq]

Personally, I find a second problem with registration.

If registration leaves a data trail every time you use it (Unwired 115) then using software that isn't registered makes it incredibly easy to red flag possible hackers who are otherwise legitimately accessing public data. They may be harder to track, but they've just announced that they are worth tracking.

Sure, maybe they wrote their own or they're using Finux, but isn't that the exact kind of person you don't trust in your data?

[Yerameyahu]

Ghost, you pirate it, then program the option on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're right, I accidentally implied you could buy them that way. Pirated Rating 4's are bad enough, though.

[CanRay]

Ghost, you pirate it, then program the option on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're right, I accidentally implied you could buy them that way. Pirated Rating 4's are bad enough, though.

Trust me, pirate everything!

Read FastJack's article in Attitude to find out why!

[Teulisch]

good point. We really need a better way to spoof the registration data trail. As it stands, if you probe the target for admin access, make a couple accounts, and log into one of those accounts, the registration tags are going to cause a problem. especially if they stand out, like using software from a handful of competing companies. that basically scream 'a hacker used this account' when you already know what vendor your company gets its software from.

[Vuron]

Skillsofts should be on a tiered schedule. I personally like the idea that rather than invest a ton of money training employees various corps might implant their employees with rating 2 or 3 skillwires and then give them a couple of skillsofts that make them productive workers. Further you could for example deduct some money from their first 6-12 months of wages in order to recoup the upfront costs.

The skillsoft would be company owned and the skillwires either leased to the employee or sold to the employee because skillwires are frankly fairly cheap.

If you don't need Bob doing job x anymore you just give him a different set of skillsofts and viola instantly retrained employee.

So honestly skillwire 2-3 and rating 2-3 know and activesofts should be pretty cheap (linguasofts should be even cheaper). Need scuba diving for a mission, or pilot aircraft or first aid? No big deal.

Skillwire 4-5 and Skillsoft 4-5 (I personally don't mind rating 5 activesofts) should be more expensive as we are talking veteran and expert level of knowledge. That means a more comprehensive knowledgebase and fewer potential models for generating the activesoft. Overall though I don't really mind that a shadowrunner might be able to slot a rating 5 skillsoft and build a respectable pool.

Personally I'd make the cost be something like 2,000 x rating up to rating 3 and 5,000 x rating up to 5 for activesofts. Getting a first aid 3 activesoft would cost you 6k but a rating 5 pistol active soft would be 25k which is a much more substantial investment. I think this would encourage people to invest in a large number of cheap activesofts rather than 2 really pricey options. Restrict edge use with chipped skills and most people are still going to want a natural skill rather than relying on tech boosts.

Pirate software in general is problematic. You could just make it so that activesofts have to be customized and thus there is no way to effectively pirate them because pistol3 for troll requires different customizations than pistol 3 for a dwarf, etc.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Ghost, you pirate it, then program the option on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're right, I accidentally implied you could buy them that way. Pirated Rating 4's are bad enough, though.

You can't program an option onto skillsofts. If you want a personalized skillsoft it has to be legitimate.

[suoq]

You can't program an option onto skillsofts.

Since unreferenced claims tend to lead towards debate/confusion: Unwired 118

Note that due to the recording nature, format, and specialized post production techniques used to create simsense programs, neither skillsoft nor BTLs can be programmed and updated in the standard software sense. Simsense options have to be bought together with the “mother program”.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, phew! I am relieved to hear that abuse potential doesn't exist, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I knew you couldn't program them, but I didn't realize you couldn't patch them.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Personally, I find a second problem with registration.

If registration leaves a data trail every time you use it (Unwired 115) then using software that isn't registered makes it incredibly easy to red flag possible hackers who are otherwise legitimately accessing public data. They may be harder to track, but they've just announced that they are worth tracking.

Sure, maybe they wrote their own or they're using Finux, but isn't that the exact kind of person you don't trust in your data?

Actually even the SR4 core book already suggests a way around the data-trail problem - that is, you buy the software legally, then crack it and copy it and use the cracked copies, taking care to "spoof your datatrail" now and then.

So... it's not quite that bad. Still, not being able to copy software has ALWAYS been one of things that bugged me in SR3, and I like being able to do it, now. So...

My suggestion on piracy:
Either use the contact option, or find a nice GM who will give you R4 pirated programs at chargen. So many rules are borked, this is just another one.

Concerning the alternate rule of using Attribute + Skill for matrix tasks: It doesn't quite remove the importance of programs, although an R4 or R5 will get you plenty of leeway for a while.

[sabs]

I still question the wisdom of giving full DNI access to software that you downloaded from a Warez Site.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, hack it yourself or get hacked, yourself.



-k

[Spanky_Harrison]

What if skillsofts just cost 1000*Rating^2 or something like that.

I know that Shadowrun seems to avoid exponents, but if its to avoid complexity, Mission Failed.

[suoq]

What if skillsofts just cost 1000*Rating^2 or something like that.

Rating 1: Worth 2 dice or the ability to perform a task that would otherwise be impossible - 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Rating 2: 4000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Rating 3: 9000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Rating 4: 16000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

You could buy rating 16 rating 1 skills for the price of getting 1 of those skills at half a success more. Given this house rule, I'm almost guaranteed to show up at the table with skillwires, agility, reaction, and IP boosted as high as possible, and Mr. Lucky (edge at eight). Since the base Mr. Lucky build is every skill at 1, your proposal allows me to save a ton of BP by buying the skills for 1/5 of a BP each.

[Yerameyahu]

That only shows you'r a bad person who abuses the Edge rules (although, it was my understanding that you couldn't Edge skillsofts anyway). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm pretty okay with the proliferation of minimal-level skills among characters, but the cost numbers can always be tweaked.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I still question the wisdom of giving full DNI access to software that you downloaded from a Warez Site.

Heh, who do you trust LESS, software pirates or megacorps (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

Yeah, tough world.

I believe a hacker worth his money will fully analyze the program using his ph4t sk1llz, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[KCKitsune]

Heh, who do you trust LESS, software pirates or megacorps (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

Yeah, tough world.

I believe a hacker worth his money will fully analyze the program using his ph4t sk1llz, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Heck, if nothing else, get the Warez for your Sammy "buddy" to use... on another 'Run! Preferably one far, far away from you and see if there is any "bugs" in the software. If there is a bug you dispose of it and try again.

[Teulisch]

huh. you know, with skillwires, a datajack, a good commlink, a data search activesoft and a browse program.... you could build a really great skillwire hacker. need a specific skill in the middle of a run? he can pirate a copy and do the job.

makes me wonder if theres any Freeware skillsofts out there. there should be some.

[redwulf25]

makes me wonder if theres any Freeware skillsofts out there. there should be some.

"You have shot someone in the face five times. Please consider upgrading to our full version for only 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ."

[Dakka Dakka]

That only shows you'r a bad person who abuses the Edge rules (although, it was my understanding that you couldn't Edge skillsofts anyway). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is the main drawback skillsofts, besides the inability to get specializations. Even with the Expert System you may not really use Edge. You may only reroll a failed test, whatever that means. It is the whole test that is rerolled not only the dice that did not score a hit. This makes the implant a worthless piece of junk IMHO.

[suoq]

That only shows you'r a bad person who abuses the Edge rules (although, it was my understanding that you couldn't Edge skillsofts anyway). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're absolutely right. I am a bad person AND Mr. Lucky is a horrible choice.

So I shy away from Mr. Lucky and become Mr. Assist. Lots of level 1 skills and I'm adding to everyone's dice pool.

Unfortunately, the mess is that they're multiple problems. Not only is it hard to balance between skillsofts you can't edge and real skills, but in the long run neither matter because sprites and spirits are so much better than skillsofts and mundane skills anyway that even if you do make skillsofts cheap you either have to power creep the skillsofts to the same unreasonable point as sprites and spirits (making skills close to worthless) or just accept that the whole bit is a wash.