Improving Cyberware, Because ware shouldn't become obsolete Options

[HunterHerne]

You want to find a disadvantage to skinlinks? Alright. The palming skill. Glitches/critical glitches. A pickpocket can still take the device off of you, unless you have it very tightly fastened. You can drop it (savvy GM's might even hold back the complete effects of a glitch or crit glitch until you look for the device on your PAN and realize it's gone, baring an alert that something has left the network, at least). Warez aren't affected by those possibilities, unless you are suffering massive damage and using those rules (which I always have). The Skinlink is helpful, but it isn't the be all- end all you claim it to be.

[suoq]

External Mods can be lost, taken, while internal ones cannot.

Anyone who can take away your external mod can take away your internal mod. It's MUCH more beneficial to the character to have the mod taken away be external. I'd rather it be taken away than removed with an ice cream scoop.

Do you characters lose your external mods? I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks. It strikes me as a lot easier to buy a new external than replace/repair the internal.

And if you're going to bold my name, bold it right. The "s" is NOT capitalized.

[Yerameyahu]

Christ, suoq. Half of those aren't even equivalent (cybergun, really?), and the rest were too pouty to read. I'm going to talk to Tymeaus instead.

Smartlink is indeed one of the big SR3-to-4 changes. The skinlink *is* very handy here, because a gun is something you move a lot. Is it so handy that wired guns couldn't exist? No; wired guns existed in SR3… as a match to the *implanted* smartlink, no less. So, skinlink saves you the trouble of having a wire down your arm, but that's there whether your eyes are implants or not! Again, skinlink isn't the factor.

Maybe that's not the best example. If only someone would give some. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let's do the implanted commlink. Now, obviously this is an external gadget that got an implanted version, so it's not exactly cyberware *losing* something. So. The implanted version gets the benefit of concealment, DNI, and inside-the-body-ness. The external version… could easily be wired, under your clothing and armor, secured with tape. No difference with skinlink, except slightly less hassle.

[suoq]

Warez aren't affected by those possibilities

Ware doesn't glitch? That's a new one to me.

And as much as having to check in your gear is a pain in the neck. That's not nearly as bad as being denied entrance because your gear is implanted.

But you're right. It's balanced. There's no reason to not take implanted over skinlink.

[Yerameyahu]

Implants (at least, things like commlinks or Math SPUs) do not 'break' on a glitch, no. Ever. If the GM does that, he's screwing you on purpose. By the same token, external devices don't either! On a *critical* glitch, there's a small possibility of something breaking, perhaps. Maybe.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Christ, suoq. Half of those aren't even equivalent (cybergun, really?), and the rest were too pouty to read. I'm going to talk to Tymeaus instead.

Smartlink is indeed one of the big SR3-to-4 changes. The skinlink *is* very handy here, because a gun is something you move a lot. Is it so handy that wired guns couldn't exist? No; wired guns existed in SR3… as a match to the *implanted* smartlink, no less. So, skinlink saves you the trouble of having a wire down your arm, but that's there whether your eyes are implants or not! Again, skinlink isn't the factor.

Maybe that's not the best example. If only someone would give some. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let's do the implanted commlink. Now, obviously this is an external gadget that got an implanted version, so it's not exactly cyberware *losing* something. So. The implanted version gets the benefit of concealment, DNI, and inside-the-body-ness. The external version… could easily be wired, under your clothing and armor, secured with tape. No difference with skinlink, except slightly less hassle.

Indeed... No worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

Implants (at least, things like commlinks or Math SPUs) do not 'break' on a glitch, no. Ever. If the GM does that, he's screwing you on purpose. By the same token, external devices don't either! On a *critical* glitch, there's a small possibility of something breaking, perhaps. Maybe.

The point is, both gitch. Ware does NOT have a "doesn't glitch" advantage over gear.

[Yerameyahu]

No, the point is you claimed 'ware could glitch so that it required surgery. In addition, HunterHerne did not say 'ware didn't glitch. He said 'ware can't be pickpocketed from you, dude! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Anyone who can take away your external mod can take away your internal mod. It's MUCH more beneficial to the character to have the mod taken away be external. I'd rather it be taken away than removed with an ice cream scoop.

Do you characters lose your external mods? I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks. It strikes me as a lot easier to buy a new external than replace/repair the internal.

You might have a point, but for a glitch, I doubt I would break anything. For a critical glitch, maybe, but that would apply to both, as well. "Critical glitch? As you stumble back, your glasses slip off your head, and you end up stepping on them."

For a glitch with ware I would maybe cause it to reboot, losing it's benefit for a couple turns at most, but that does depend on the test, too.

You're right. I would rather have my external mods taken away, too. But, that is certain play styles, and sometimes, characters don't have the option, especially after character creation. Or they have a theme they are playing with. It really comes down to personal choice, which I prefer as a GM to powergaming (I actually tend to punish powergamers as a GM)

[suoq]

No, the point is you claimed 'ware could glitch so that it required surgery. In addition, HunterHerne did not say 'ware didn't glitch. He said 'ware can't be pickpocketed from you, dude! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Next game pickpocket the skinlinked gear from your players and tell them they don't notice it going away from their PAN. Go on. I dare you.

[Yerameyahu]

What is wrong with you? I'm trying to be nice, but you keep literally making things up. I never said they wouldn't notice. HunterHerne suggested it as a *possibility* (not one I agree with). The key aspect here is that they take it away from you.

The fact is you said this: "I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks." That's crazy. And then *no one* said the 'ware was glitchproof.

[HunterHerne]

I also said there would be an alert on the PAN. But, if the device isn't currently in use, there is no guarantee they won't notice. let them make a couple perception checks (one to notice the actual pickpocketing, one to notice the alert as something worth reading) Even if they succeed, the pickpocket probably isn't readily identifiable. Although most runners should have some way of tracking their psuedo-legal gear...

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I dig. I feel like my 'item stolen!' alert would be un-ignorable, but yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Well, think about it like this, unless they specifically set up their system to alert them that an item left their PAN in big flashy letters, it'll be more like the small box in the corner that you ignore on your PC monitor when you take a storage device out of the computer without safely removing hardware.

[Yerameyahu]

I just don't agree there. This is anti-theft. I can certainly see how that could get annoying, just like car alarms. And normal people are lax about security vs. convenience. But a shadowrunner?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Hunter has a really good point. Even Shadowrunners don't always think of every possibility, and having their spare set of glasses stolen could be one of them. Or heck, even their gun. I mean, Shadowrunners are to at least some extent vain, and are unlikely to think someone is going to be able to steal their gun without them noticing. Also, not all runners are really technically savy, and may simply not think to set up something like that, or have the knowledge of how to do it.

You also have to remember that it would create a serious annoyance if every time they turned a device off or set it down and walked away, big flashing letters would appear in their vision.

It is only anti-theft because someone happened to steal it. In any other case it is just a major annoyance because you forgot to hit the 'remove this device from my pan' button. Also, thanks to the mesh wireless, something stolen may very well still be connected to your PAN, and setting something up that actually checks the location of all devices on the PAN in relationship to each other would be an enormous hassle (Not to mention require a dedicated agent I believe).

[Stahlseele]

Furthermore, if you are running black trenchcoat, nothing points back at the runner anyway, and most of them get rid of what they used after a run too . .
So they have one more switch, big deal to them, if it wasn't too expensive or had still something pointing at them in big and angry letters . .

[HunterHerne]

Furthermore, if you are running black trenchcoat, nothing points back at the runner anyway, and most of them get rid of what they used after a run too . .
So they have one more switch, big deal to them, if it wasn't too expensive or had still something pointing at them in big and angry letters . .

"Planned loss" Sounds like a good way to create a false trail.

[Dakka Dakka]

Anyone who can take away your external mod can take away your internal mod. It's MUCH more beneficial to the character to have the mod taken away be external. I'd rather it be taken away than removed with an ice cream scoop.

Do you seriously say that anyone who is willing to either tell you to remove some gear or take it from you is also willing and able to perform operations on you? And in the same time those persons are not willing and able to kill you and drop you in a ditch possibly with some organs missing? This sounds like a very strange world to me.

[HunterHerne]

Do you seriously say that anyone who is willing to either tell you to remove some gear or take it from you is also willing and able to perform operations on you? And in the same time those persons are not willing and able to kill you and drop you in a ditch possibly with some organs missing? This sounds like a very strange world to me.

Good point. A ganger mugging you in the street and a Tamenous guy stripping you of your useful pieces aren't exactly the same thing, and the mugging is a lot more common. I guess in that sense it comes down to play style of the GM, and whether or not it's more Pink-Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat

[Stahlseele]

Much different Situation from you getting cought by lonestar or whatever corp you were running against.
Guard:"Give us your weapons"
Runner:"Built in, i'm afraid"
Guard:"YOUR Problem buddy"

[HunterHerne]

Much different Situation from you getting cought by lonestar or whatever corp you were running against.
Guard:"Give us your weapons"
Runner:"Built in, i'm afraid"
Guard:"YOUR Problem buddy"

Yeah... one of the reasons I wouldn't get a cyber weapon. And especially not a big one.

[Dakka Dakka]

I doubt the conversation would take place that way. More likely:

LS/Guard: "Give us your weapons"
Cyberweapon Guy (with licenses, not sure if there are any for cyberweapons):"Here is my Ares Predator and I also have this and that weapon implanted. My commlink starts sending the licensedata now."
Cyberweapon Guy without licenses: "Here is my Ares Predator." *waits for the cops to come closer to rip them to shreds with his spurs*/*hopes that his betaware will not be detected*

I just checked, all cyberguns are restricted but all cyber melee weapons except for the shock hand are forbidden (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Same goes for mages actually.
Since there is NO WAY to stop a mage from casting, he either gets a bullet to the back of the head or he gets drugged into oblivion and kept in a coma.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Same goes for mages actually.
Since there is NO WAY to stop a mage from casting, he either gets a bullet to the back of the head or he gets drugged into oblivion and kept in a coma.

Magemasks are pretty good at stopping casting... can't cast at what you can't see...