Nuke - no choice at all?, Also, nuke vs AI for the win? Options

[Aerospider]

A couple of queries on the interpretation of the nuke program.

1) Given that each point of pseudo-damage reduces either Response or System and that effective System is capped by Response, why would anyone use nuke to reduce System before Response? Surely the two-die-one deal means that even if Response began higher than System, the only strategy is to get Response down to 0 so that the target also has an effective System of 0 too and then work on the true System rating at leisure to the point of totally crashing the persona/pilot. Have I missed something here?

Additionally - what are the effects of having one of these Matrix attributes at 0 but not the other? I.e. when the nuke is halfway to the total crash bit.

2) If an AI gets crashed by nuke, isn't he screwed? The effect is to be unable to take any Matrix action until the node on which he is run gets rebooted, but how can he reboot without taking a Matrix action? Unless he has the presence of mind (not to mention considerable trust) to always have a friend keep an eye on him, he's going to sit in limbo whilst his assailants track down his node and blow it up at their convenience. Same thing applies to agents and sprites, yes? Only meat-based victims of nuke are able to reach for the reset button by virtue of having a physical component that nuke cannot inhibit. By my reading of this program any AI seeing a nuke-armed agent wandering around should get the hell out of there.

[longbowrocks]

I've been wondering exactly this for a while (not the second part, only the first). Yeah, it seems to me like you should just always attack response first. In fact, you might as well just say whatever you're attacking is crashed once it reaches response 0 since it can't fight back. Personally, I don't even see why there's an attack program in the game. Sure matrix damage takes longer to heal than one reboot, but it's not like a nuked enemy can do anything to you.

[Yerameyahu]

Effective System is not capped by Response. It's capped by *base* Response. The only real effects of decreased Response are decreased Init/'dodge', and other DPs based on Response (typical of AIs, but also jumped-in rigging).

[longbowrocks]

Ah, missed that. I feel like it doesn't matter either way though since you run into the same problem when decreasing system. No programs can be run against you at system 0, so the defender just becomes a punching bag after that.

[Yerameyahu]

You'll want to work quickly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But I still think you're misreading. It says you're frozen if *both* are 0. It also says that Nuke affects "Matrix Initiative, processor limit, and subscription limits." There's no reason to assume it affects anything else, secondarily (that is, programs are limited by *base* System as well, although I can't recall if I've seen this explicitly stated). So, you're hurting their DPs and their Initiative, until they're all frozen. That seems more than fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

You'll want to work quickly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But I still think you're misreading. It says you're frozen if *both* are 0. It also says that Nuke affects "Matrix Initiative, processor limit, and subscription limits." There's no reason to assume it affects anything else, secondarily (that is, programs are limited by *base* System as well, although I can't recall if I've seen this explicitly stated). So, you're hurting their DPs and their Initiative, until they're all frozen. That seems more than fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Forgive me, but isn't processor limit the number of programs that can be run? Meaning that if system is effectively reduced, the number of programs able to run is reduced?

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. As you reduce System, you'll will likely force Response Degradation from reduced Processor Limit. That, in turn, will snowball on your whole Nuking situation (although it's not clear if you have to Nuke the current Response or the base Response to zero with Nuke points).

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Also keep in mind that not everything has the same system and response. You might run into something that has a huge response but not such a great system (The SR equivalent of someone getting a gaming machine and running Vista on it).

[Yerameyahu]

By the same token, Pilot ratings can often be much lower than the Response they run on, yes.

[Aerospider]

Effective System is not capped by Response. It's capped by *base* Response. The only real effects of decreased Response are decreased Init/'dodge', and other DPs based on Response (typical of AIs, but also jumped-in rigging).

Thanks Yam, I should have thought of that possibility.

So there six attributes at work here -

Base System
System capped by base Response
System reduced by nuke and then capped by base Response

Base Response
Response reduced by hitting processor limit
Response reduced by nuke and then reduced reduced by hitting processor limit

Is that the right ordering, or should nuke be applied last? I suppose that goes with the question about whether the reductions 'stack' or not. Would it be too powerful to apply nuke to the modified rating instead of base? I think it might, but applying it to base means recalculating the modified rating as well, which would start to get annoying in bookkeeping terms.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, I think 'base System' is the same as 'System capped by base Response'. It's the highest System that can normally run on that machine, and you don't get any benefit for having an 'overpowered' System (on a non-Peripheral node).

I do think Nuke and Response Degradation should stack (though I can still see the special 'Nuke Freeze' only happening when it's Nuke points that reduce both Attribs to 0). Yes, it does get bookkeeping-y. :/

[Aerospider]

Well, I think 'base System' is the same as 'System capped by base Response'. It's the highest System that can normally run on that machine, and you don't get any benefit for having an 'overpowered' System (on a non-Peripheral node).

I do think Nuke and Response Degradation should stack (though I can still see the special 'Nuke Freeze' only happening when it's Nuke points that reduce both Attribs to 0). Yes, it does get bookkeeping-y. :/

I think I agree, but it makes for a damn powerful program.

Say the target is a persona with Response 4, System 5(4) and three programs (attack, stealth and medic perhaps). Score just one point of damage and hit System down to 5(4(3)). This puts the processor limit at 3 and so Response gets reduced by 1. The target is now at Response 4(3) and System 5(4(3)) including a -1 to initiative and defense pools.

Now say you hit again for two net damage. If you hit Response twice it goes down to 4(3(1)), but because the base is still 4 System remains unaffected by this latest strike. Alternatively you hit System twice to bring it down to 5(4(1)) which puts the processor limit at 1 and thus the Response degradation at -3. Now he has Response 4(1) and System 5(4(1)).

At this point just one more point of damage and he's got both at 0 (with another System hit) and you're halfway (4/8) to freezing him up. So now it seems System is the one to hit if the target is running more than 2 programs (or even 1 maybe) but otherwise hitting Response will give more immediate results. That's a better balance than in my initial interpretation.

Still not sure what happens to the victim when one or both ratings are at 0 - nothing special or ...?

[Yerameyahu]

For processor limit, it of course depends on what's running. It *is* pretty strong, of course, and it incentivizes having good gear.

When Nuke gets *both* to 0, everything freezes. I suspect that this means that the total Nuke points equals the base Response and 'base' System (that is, System as limited by base Response). So, it's a little less powerful than otherwise. Still, you're getting great Response-DP/Init reductions, which is the intent.

[hobgoblin]

One way to bitch slap a AR adept.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One way to bitch slap a AR adept.

And why would they be any different than an AR Hacker? Same Response and System, generally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)