[X] My Assistant

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

So what happens if a TM has a Simsense Booster? It says it gives a boost to IP while in VR, and a TM is in VR, just not through the normal channels. Does the booster still help?

I can see arguments for both sides, but I'm curious what others think.

[Yerameyahu]

A couple threads about this before. I think the FAQ says they can use it as normal? As it's cyberware, and doesn't say anything about connecting to a comm, it's only fair that Technomancers can use it. I honestly can't see any argument against it.

[hermit]

Oh nice, finally an exploit for something moving with six IP.

[Aerospider]

Oh nice, finally an exploit for something moving with six IP.

Well, there's text that says 4 is the maximum and then text that says 'ok, you can have 5 with x, y or z, but seriously that's the limit' but no mention of 6, so I'd say not.

[Fortinbras]

I see two pieces of text in Unwired that say I can have 5 IPs.
I see no text which says I can have 6. Until I do, that's a no go on 6 IPs.

[hermit]

Well, there is no passage that says you cannot combine Simsense boosters with the accelerate echos (which are good for 5 IP in the flesh with that avatar-as-real echo). Since A works with B for n+1, and n is not hardcapped in the case of avatar-for-real thingy, why can't n+1 be 6? Or, even disregarding a4r echo thingy, find me a reason why this prevents a matrix initiative of 6 and rigging a drone with it (Which alwways uses matrix initiative).

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Because the maximum number of IP you can have is 4, unless you have one of the two things that says: You are allowed to have a max of five IP. I don't know how "You may have five IP." means 'You can have six IP.' This applies to living personas just as much as anything else, which is what I believe you mean by 'avatar-for-real thingy', so n in your example is in fact hard capped.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So what happens if a TM has a Simsense Booster? It says it gives a boost to IP while in VR, and a TM is in VR, just not through the normal channels. Does the booster still help?

I can see arguments for both sides, but I'm curious what others think.

Well, I also see both sides, but for Technomancers, I err on the side of Echoes. Since a Technomancer can get there by Echoes, why give him the accessability to that particular piece of Cyberware? Yes, I know, it reduces his Resonance, so should be his choice, but it just seems... wrong?

That being said, the technology route is much cheaper.

*Shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, definitely not 6. It's a tradeoff the PC has to make: spend cash and Essence on a boost *now*, or wait to get the Echoes. It seems fair. Getting the Booster means losing a point of Resonance (naturally, careful choices can cram other 'ware in there), and 65k's not nothing.

You *could* certainly house rule that it's not compatible with the bionode—plenty of room there to just say, 'doesn't work, it's technomagic, okay!?' If your group and campaign would be better that way, do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Indeed, definitely not 6. It's a tradeoff the PC has to make: spend cash and Essence on a boost *now*, or wait to get the Echoes. It seems fair. Getting the Booster means losing a point of Resonance (naturally, careful choices can cram other 'ware in there), and 65k's not nothing.

You *could* certainly house rule that it's not compatible with the bionode—plenty of room there to just say, 'doesn't work, it's technomagic, okay!?'

Kind of what I was thinking. Yeah, you can get it now, but you'll still have to get advanced overclock to hit 5 IP, so in the long run it doesn't offer any advantage in that regard. Now, that said, you've already taken the essence hit, so you can always trade it out later for other stuff, but you're still spending a bunch of nuyen in the process (Not that TMs really have any use for nuyen at all).

And yeah, could easily rule it the other way. Presumably a simsense booster works in concert with a simsense module of some kind, but a TM doesn't have that.

So like I said, I can see arguments for both sides.

[hermit]

Because the maximum number of IP you can have is 4, unless you have one of the two things that says: You are allowed to have a max of five IP

Because it doesn't say "you may have up to 5 IP" but "you may exceed the limit of 4 IP with this gear/echo, resulting in 5 IP". Nothing says 5 is the definite hardcap.

And given this was written by Aaron Pavao, and how he loves to build munchkin-compatible rules (he has said so himself) and how he gives extra Karma formunchkin gaming in his home group (again, he said so himself), it'S reasonable this is intended.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because it doesn't say "you may have up to 5 IP" but "you may exceed the limit of 4 IP with this gear/echo, resulting in 5 IP". Nothing says 5 is the definite hardcap.

And given this was written by Aaron Pavao, and how he loves to build munchkin-compatible rules (he has said so himself) and how he gives extra Karma formunchkin gaming in his home group (again, he said so himself), it'S reasonable this is intended.

For his Home Group, Maybe... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, the crazed writer's opinion is not important. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The hardcap is 5. There is no 6th phase.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, the crazed writer's opinion is not important. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh... Why should it be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I wasn't being sarcastic. Writer intent only matters insofar as they're not insane!

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yeah, the crazed writer's opinion is not important. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hehe, crazed writer. Can't help but imagine someone foaming at the mouth as they pound furiously at their keyboard, a wild look in their eyes.

I wonder if this is the same writer that came up with the emotitoy? Seems it either had to be a power gamer, or someone who didn't know (perhaps because it was changed at some point) anything about the empathy software.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wasn't being sarcastic. Writer intent only matters insofar as they're not insane!

Oh, I know Yerameyahu. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Opinion does not belong in a Rule. They are different things. Aaron's (possible) Opinion that maybe it should stack to give 6 IP is in direct contrevention of the ruling that Hard Max is 4, with 2 Exceptions. Not saying that he is insane or anything, because maybe he likes those kind of games, and rewards them. But the opinion does not match the ruling. *shrug*.

[hermit]

Well,he openly said in the War! discussion thread of old he deeply appreciates that Slow can be turned into a bullet shield, which totally is not what the spell is drescribed as, and that this was intent on his part. And an unclearly worded rule - and the cap-exceeding IP are - is pen to interpretations, even inane ones. There's an entire profession specialising in this. They're called lawyers.

[Yerameyahu]

And we know that Slow is also a bad thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I appreciate this Behind the Music information, of course. I just wouldn't give a broken opinion weight, hehe.

Yes, the IP cap rules could (should) be stated much more clearly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[hermit]

That is really all I want to say. It's nowhere worded that 5 is the absolute, definitive hardcap on initiative passes ever (as was in the SR3 Matrix book, where it was very clearly worded that no matter what is combined and what is done, 5 dice is all there ever will be in initiative). It is not in SR4. Since SR4'S base philosophy is "what is not explicitly illegal is legal" and "GM decision, bitches, so don't expect us to make an effort", 6 IP with this exploit is not illegal.

I recommend any player who avtually builds this to be hit with the core book on the head, repeatedly, of course. Best, just ban Technomunchkins altogether, but that's only me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

the technomancer receives a total bonus of
+2 Response and +2 Initiative Passes while operating in full-sim VR
(with the 2 extra Initiative Passes from hot-sim VR, this grants the
technomancer an IP of 5; this is an exception to the rule that normally
limits IPs to 4)

(so a
hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster
cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an excep-
tion to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4).

So both specifically say that they grant 5 IPs and are an exception to the normal 4 IP cap. Neither of them says "If you have this, the 4 IP cap no longer applies." or anything like that. They both point very directly to you now having 5 IP.

[hermit]

So both specifically say that they grant 5 IPs

No. Both say this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs, which is an entirely different thing to say. Yes, they say you then, applying this item, have a maximum IP of 5, because 4+1=5. they do not say "This, however, is the maximum IP that can ever be achieved, and no possible exploit will ever change that". If that definite hardcap was the intention, it is very poorly worded. Deducting from this that 5 IP is the definite hardcap is just as possible as saying "in conjunction, this means 6 IP", because both the echo and the 'ware are allowed to exceed the limit, with no other limit being given.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. The point is that it's bad wording on the technical level, and it's well made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

No, it says 'This gives you an IP of 5, which is an exception to the normal rule of a max of 4' And exception is a particular case, an exception is not 'this rule no longer applies in any cases'.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree. It specifically says 'you=5'.