[X] My Assistant

[Mr. Smileys]

never mind, I mis read. Tymeaus Jalynsfein has it right.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

no, he was saying that in his reference/example the two barriers his player shot through both had a rating of 8 which the barrett can easily penetrate, so his target got to resist with Body+Armor+16(for barriers)-8(for AP) so if we assume average body(4) and armor(4) its 4+4+16-8=16 dice on the damage resistance test to resist at minimum 9P damage

Sort of... Each wall had an end result of 8 Barrier rating remaining... Which, added together provides +16 Armor to the Target's armor rating.

Ninja Edited by Mr. Smileys... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

It's right there in the quote you gave. There are two ways that AP affects a shot. 1) it checks itself with the barrier rating to see if you penetrate. 2) it subtracts dice from the target's total armor rating in step 4. -8 AP doesn't equal -16 armor when they try to soak.

What you do:

"If a character wants to shoot through a barrier to hit a target behind it, add the barrier’s Armor rating to whatever armor the target already possesses"

Ok, so two concrete walls adds 32 armor.

"If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the attack automatically fails."

The DV + AP is plenty for bypassing each wall, so we're ok there.

Step 4 of the combat sequence (SR4A p. 149): "Determine the type of armor used to defend against the specific attack (see Armor, p. 160), and apply the attack’s Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 162); this is the modified Armor Value."

We apply the -8 to the target's 32, leaving 24.

[Stahlseele]

But the combined barrier ratings would be enough to stop the sniper round cold, or am i misunderstanding something here?

[James McMurray]

But the combined barrier ratings would be enough to stop the sniper round cold, or am i misunderstanding something here?

There's a hiccup in the rules for barriers stopping bullets. They should total up multiple barrier ratings and then apply AP, but they never say that. So technically you apply the AP to each barrier for determining if the bullet can punch through.

The rules are written from the standpoint of firing through a single barrier, and clearly weren't tested (or even analyzed) using a multiple barrier situation.

[Stahlseele]

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH! @.@

[James McMurray]

Very DUH... IMO they should have made vehicle armor and barriers work exactly alike, and specified that you total the armor for all hardened sources, then apply penetration. If you don't have enough DV to penetrate, you don't penetrate.

The way it's written now if you put 4,000 plywood sheets against one another (Barrier Rating 2 each), then your Predator IV's EX-EX bullet (-2 AP) will pass through them all and come out the other end. However, when it comes out it doesn't have enough force left to penetrate a paper cup (because the cup gets +8,000 armor).

[UmaroVI]

Empathy Software/Emotitoys, Grenade Stacking, MRSI, Slow, Hackastacks, Channeling.

[Stahlseele]

oy vey . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We apply the -8 to the target's 32, leaving 24.

Which is a viable answer to be sure, as I stated above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) But it is not the ONLY answer, as you also indicated. The rules are a bit odd here...

[Christian Lafay]

Very DUH... IMO they should have made vehicle armor and barriers work exactly alike, and specified that you total the armor for all hardened sources, then apply penetration. If you don't have enough DV to penetrate, you don't penetrate.

The way it's written now if you put 4,000 plywood sheets against one another (Barrier Rating 2 each), then your Predator IV's EX-EX bullet (-2 AP) will pass through them all and come out the other end. However, when it comes out it doesn't have enough force left to penetrate a paper cup (because the cup gets +8,000 armor).

Well my runner just lost two feet in each measurement in each room. Drywall, inch of air, drywall, inch of air, dr.... You get where this is going.

[James McMurray]

Which is a viable answer to be sure, as I stated above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) But it is not the ONLY answer, as you also indicated. The rules are a bit odd here...

No, it's the only answer. The rules say exactly what to do. You use the AP for each barrier to determine if it can punch through, but you only apply the AP once to soak. I'm not sure how I said there were multiple possible interpretations, but if that's how it came across I apologize. The rules, though incredibly unrealistic and foolishly wrong, are pretty clear cut.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it's the only answer. The rules say exactly what to do. You use the AP for each barrier to determine if it can punch through, but you only apply the AP once to soak. I'm not sure how I said there were multiple possible interpretations, but if that's how it came across I apologize. The rules, though incredibly unrealistic and foolishly wrong, are pretty clear cut.

Apparently, you and I have different Interpretations of the rules. You MUST assess damage at each barrier, or it becoems quicky irrelevant. Unfortunately, because you assess Damage Immediately, you get stupid results (as I said previously, and you agree with) of a Bullet with infinite Penetration on even medium weight barriers.

The Barrier remaining is only 8 per Concrete Wall. So, thusly, you add +8 to the Armor rating of the Target for each wall. Resulting in a Bonus to Armor of +16.

I already said that you SHOULD likely add them together and then subtract the AP Valus of the incomming Round. Unfortunately, if you DO that, you cannot penetrate the Walls AT ALL and get no effect. You cannot have it both ways.

It is a Logic issue. The Second way is correct, in my opinion (much like yours), but it is not what the rules actually say.

As a Side note... Do you really think you are penetrating a Concrete Bunker at Range? Since there is no way for you to see any targets through 2 Concrete Walls (Barrier Rating of 32) when the BEST option (UWB RADAR Rating 4) only lets you see through 20 points of Barrier Rating. It is a scernario that will never actually be doable anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

The Barrier remaining is only 8 per Concrete Wall. So, thusly, you add +8 to the Armor rating of the Target for each wall. Resulting in a Bonus to Armor of +16.

That is not what the rules say to do. You're adding a step. What they say (in the order they say them, though order doesn't actually amtter since the stteps aren't interrelated.):

1) Add the barrier's armor rating to the target's armor.

2) Check Modified DV and AP against the barrier's armor rating for penetration.

What you say

1) Add the barrier's armor rating - AP to the target's armor.

2) Check modified DV and AP against the barrier's armor rating for penetration.

At no point does the barrier's armor rating change in the rules (you even quoted them yourself). You're adding something that doesn't exist and making an already silly situation jump straight to ludicrous. If that works for your game, great. But please don't try to pass it off as RAW.

[Stahlseele]

As a Side note... Do you really think you are penetrating a Concrete Bunker at Range? Since there is no way for you to see any targets through 2 Concrete Walls (Barrier Rating of 32) when the BEST option (UWB RADAR Rating 4) only lets you see through 20 points of Barrier Rating. It is a scernario that will never actually be doable anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tac-Net, AR-Overlay, Smart-Link.
Something on the inside sees the targt, is linked to the shooter via tac-net and the smartlink tells you where to shoot.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Barrier remaining is only 8 per Concrete Wall. So, thusly, you add +8 to the Armor rating of the Target for each wall. Resulting in a Bonus to Armor of +16.

That is not what the rules say to do. You're adding a step. What they say (in the order they say them, though order doesn't actually amtter since the stteps aren't interrelated.):

1) Add the barrier's armor rating to the target's armor.

2) Check Modified DV and AP against the barrier's armor rating for penetration.

What you say

1) Add the barrier's armor rating - AP to the target's armor.

2) Check modified DV and AP against the barrier's armor rating for penetration.

At no point does the barrier's armor rating change in the rules (you even quoted them yourself). You're adding something that doesn't exist and making an already silly situation jump straight to ludicrous. If that works for your game, great. But please don't try to pass it off as RAW.

The problem you are having is that the last sentence in my quote is not a damage resolution step. It is telling you that if the DV does not excceed BR, then it stops. It is a Reminder of the rules regarding Barrier Ratings, not a Step.

Either way, you and I agree that it should be 2x Rating - Armor (AND thus the 2nd Concrete Wall Completely STOPS the round). But it is not how it is applied. Because if it is, your DV likely does not exceed the BR at that point, and the attack fails outright. In practivce, the remaining BR of each wall is added to the Armor rating, because you cannot add something that has already been penetrated (the original 8 BR from each barrier that is represented by the AP).

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

The problem you are having is that the last sentence in my quote is not a damage resolution step. It is telling you that if the DV does not excceed BR, then it stops. It is a Reminder of the rules regarding Barrier Ratings, not a Step.

Either way, you and I agree that it should be 2x Rating - Armor. But it is not how it is applied. Because if it is, your DV likely does not exceed the BR at that point, and the attack fails outright. In practivce, the remaining BR of each wall is added to the Armor rating, because you cannot add something that has already been penetrated (the original 8 BR from each barrier that is represented by the AP).

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess we just don't speak the same language or something, because what you're saying is my problem is not something I've never even said. Let's try this a more Socratic way.

I see where it says to add the barrier rating's armor to the target for soak.

I see where it says to compare the DV against the barrier rating (minus AP) to see if you even reach the target.

Where does it say anything about applying the AP to the barrier rating before adding the armor to the target's soak? You say this step occurs "in practice" but I want to know where it occurs in the rules. It looks to me like something you made up.

[deek]

JM looks to be right on this last part, though. The rules don't say you only apply the remaining BR to the Armor rating, you get the full amount added to your Armor rating when you go to soak. The BR - AP check is only there to tell you if your bullet penetrates the barrier. Once you have determined whether the bullet can get through the two walls, your target still gets the benefit of 32 extra armor from the barriers. Then the target's personal body & armor + total barrier rating - AP is the pool you get to soak with.

[Christian Lafay]

Tac-Net, AR-Overlay, Smart-Link.
Something on the inside sees the targt, is linked to the shooter via tac-net and the smartlink tells you where to shoot.

Bust-A-Move recon.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

JM looks to be right on this last part, though. The rules don't say you only apply the remaining BR to the Armor rating, you get the full amount added to your Armor rating when you go to soak. The BR - AP check is only there to tell you if your bullet penetrates the barrier. Once you have determined whether the bullet can get through the two walls, your target still gets the benefit of 32 extra armor from the barriers. Then the target's personal body & armor + total barrier rating - AP is the pool you get to soak with.

Which still gives you wonky effects. Poorly Worded to say the least. And for what it is worth, That is what I was saying it Should do. I have just seen it both ways, and the way I was "supporting", if you will, seems to be the most common I have seen...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Bust-A-Move recon.

Definitely another option, as long as you don't mind Information Guided Firing (Which likely cuts your Attribute contribuition in half, if not more), and still receiving the -6 DP penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Definitely another option, as long as you don't mind Information Guided Firing (Which likely cuts your Attribute contribuition in half, if not more), and still receiving the -6 DP penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Reasoning?
I ain't aiming at the target, i am aiming at the wall that i can see just fine o.O
Everything getting hit afterwards is collateral damage/an oopsie/luck for me ^^

[Yerameyahu]

Technically, if you aim at the wall, you hurt only the wall. SR4 doesn't have 'stray shots' or overpenetration.

[Stahlseele]

So . . if you hold up your sheet of paper, and i take my gauss rifle here and i AIM AT THE SHEET OF PAPER YOU ARE HOLDING IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE . . your Face is now completely Gauss-Proof? O.o

[James McMurray]

So . . if you hold up your sheet of paper, and i take my gauss rifle here and i AIM AT THE SHEET OF PAPER YOU ARE HOLDING IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE . . your Face is now completely Gauss-Proof? O.o

By RAW? Yes. The barrier rules are incredibly simplified and almost as incredibly illogical. You also:

- can have a barrier strong enough to bounce a bullet, but that will be torn apart by ten bullets.
- destroy a lead wall with radiation

Nobody ever said the rules made sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)