What should I Ban Outright Options

[Yerameyahu]

You act surprised by the illogic of it. You have played SR before, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If you attack to damage the barrier, you only can damage the barrier. If you attack to shoot through it, you can only shoot through it. Certainly many GMs tweak these rules in logical ways, but that's the RAW. Hehe.

[deek]

Which still gives you wonky effects. Poorly Worded to say the least. And for what it is worth, That is what I was saying it Should do. I have just seen it both ways, and the way I was "supporting", if you will, seems to be the most common I have seen...

No doubt about the wonkiness.

So, is that the way you see hardened armor working as well, or is the AP removing BR for extra armor dice something that just happens for barriers? I would think it would be pretty messed up if say, someone with hardened armor, lost dice due to AP. It basically makes it all or nothing.

After thinking about it a little more, I can see the logic both ways.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No doubt about the wonkiness.

So, is that the way you see hardened armor working as well, or is the AP removing BR for extra armor dice something that just happens for barriers? I would think it would be pretty messed up if say, someone with hardened armor, lost dice due to AP. It basically makes it all or nothing.

After thinking about it a little more, I can see the logic both ways.

Hardened Armor DOES lose effectiveness due to AP. If you have Hardened Armor 12, and you are hit with a Heavy Pistol (DV5, with APDS (-4 AP, for a Total of -5 AP), all you need is a few Net successes to get you to DV 8 to penetrate teh hardened Armor.
This is why the Force 6 Spirit is so susceptible to SnS Rounds. Any net hit allows the Damage to Exceed the Hardened ITNW of 6 (After reduction due to AP).

[deek]

Hardened Armor DOES lose effectiveness due to AP. If you have Hardened Armor 12, and you are hit with a Heavy Pistol (DV5, with APDS (-4 AP, for a Total of -5 AP), all you need is a few Net successes to get you to DV 8 to penetrate teh hardened Armor.
This is why the Force 6 Spirit is so susceptible to SnS Rounds. Any net hit allows the Damage to Exceed the Hardened ITNW of 6 (After reduction due to AP).

So, really hardened armor is no different than regular armor other than the threshold needed to actually hit the target and cause a soak roll?

[Yerameyahu]

Other than being hardened, you mean? No. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

That's what Smart Armor + Vehicle Armor is for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Smart Armor

Smart Armor...doesn't work in SR4. The rules make no sense. See this post.

(Long story short: Smart Armor is either as effective as regular armor or less effective than regular armor, depending on what "adds to the AP value" means)

[James McMurray]

Smart Armor...doesn't work in SR4. The rules make no sense. See this post.

(Long story short: Smart Armor is either as effective as regular armor or less effective than regular armor, depending on what "adds to the AP value" means)

Then consider our group (an I'd guess practically every group) as having house ruled it, since that hyper anal interpretation is clearly not what was intended. YMMV

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Smart Armor...doesn't work in SR4. The rules make no sense. See this post.

(Long story short: Smart Armor is either as effective as regular armor or less effective than regular armor, depending on what "adds to the AP value" means)

Well, Since ADDS to Negative results in reducing the Negative, IT IS BETTER than Regular Armor, as it can NEGATE AP. Which is its intended purpose.

Crazy interpretations aside. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Well, Since ADDS to Negative results in reducing the Negative, IT IS BETTER than Regular Armor, as it can NEGATE AP. Which is its intended purpose.

Just FYI
A + (B + C) == (A + B) + C

It's one of those magical properties of math that results in equalities.

(ARMOR + SMART) + AP == ARMOR + (SMART + AP)
[Where AP is either a positive (flachette rounds) or negative number (armor piercing rounds)]

In English this means that it doesn't matter one whit if Smart Armor adds to armor or adds to Armor Piercing, e.g. smart armor is no better than normal armor.¹

And the other interpretation makes less sense, but it comes from the gramatical dissonance between:

ADDS ... NEGATE

NEGATion means to subtract, which is the opposite of ADDing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

¹Excepting the fact that you then roll its rating and subtract that from it's rating, meaning that normal armor provides the same protection against the first attack, and more against each subsequent attack...

[sabs]

but Smart Armor can be stacked with Normal Armor.

Something nothing else can do.

[Draco18s]

Alright, here's where the confusion comes from:

reducing the AP value of attacks by the smart armor’s rating

Reducing AP means "add" or "subtract"?

Followed by:

Every time a heavy ballistic weapon or explosive
(usually any weapon that does more than 10 DV) hits a vehicle
with smart armor, roll a test using the smart armor’s rating as
the dice pool. Every hit is added to the firing weapon’s AP value
(thus rendering the smart armor less effective)

Note the use of the word adds and what it's adding to, and compare with the previous quote.

If they both do the same thing (move the AP value towards positive infinity) why the two different words ("reduce" and "add")?

Followed by a parenthetical indicating that more smart armor is worse than less smart armor (hits = bad, more hits = worse).

[James McMurray]

You're trying to parse an English (and not even technical English) set of paragraphs using mathematical terms. Good luck with that.

[Draco18s]

You're trying to parse an English (and not even technical English) set of paragraphs using mathematical terms. Good luck with that.

Parse this sentence for me:

Every hit¹ is added to the firing weapon’s AP value (thus rendering the smart armor less effective)

Mechanically are those hits¹ good for the vehicle or not?

¹Game mechanics for the test involving dice.


Now that you've done that, parse this and tell me what happens:

Small explosives deflect incoming fire, reducing the AP value of attacks by the smart armor’s rating. If DV > 10, make a test. Every hit is added to the firing weapon’s AP value (thus rendering the smart armor less effective)

Incoming fire: 11 DV, -4 AP, 10 points of smart armor (assume average roll of 3 hits).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay...

You roll the Smart Armors Rating and add the hits to the Weapon's AP...

Mechanically it works out. If you have a Weapon AP of -4 (your above example) and you roll and get 5 hits on your Rating 10 Smart Armor, your Weapon AP is now ony +1... See, You have just added the Smart Armor Hits to the AP. Oh, and you may now use your Smart Armor 9 More Times (It is less effective because of its prior use).

If that AP had been +5 for some reason, it would now be +10.

Every time a heavy ballistic weapon or explosive (usually any weapon that does more than 10 DV) hits a vehicle with smart armor, roll a test using the smart armor’s rating as the dice pool. Every hit is added to the firing weapon’s AP value (thus rendering the smart armor less effective). A glitch on this test reduces the value of the smart armor by one. You may use the smart armor as many times as its rating. Once the smart armor has been exhausted, it must be replenished with a Logic + Armorer (rating, 1 hour) Extended Test in order to be effective again, at a cost of 500¥ per rating point.

The quote about less effective is right in the text. You can only use Smart Armor a number of times equal to its rating. Each use renders it less effective. What is so hard about that?

[Draco18s]

The quote about less effective is right in the text. You can only use Smart Armor a number of times equal to its rating. Each use renders it less effective. What is so hard about that?

"Every hit is added to the firing weapon’s AP value (thus rendering the smart armor less effective)."

"Thus" meaning "as a result."

Rewriting the sentence:

"As a result, each hit renders the smart armor less effective."

The parenthetical is a dependent clause to the rest of the sentence, where the primary noun is "hit."

[James McMurray]

Each use renders it less effective because you're limited to <rating> total uses. Each hit renders it less effective at that moment because the larger weapon or better aimed shot punched through it.

Whenever you're using Smart armor and get hit you:

1) reduce the effectiveness of the AP by [rating] (by moving it towards 0). So AP -6 and smart armor 4 means the AP for that shot is only -2.

2) test the damage value of the weapon, if > 10, roll [rating dice] and reduce the effectiveness of the smart armor by [hits]. So AP -6, Damage 12, Smart armor 4 (2 hits) has an end result of an effective AP rating of -4 (6 - 4 + 2). If you get a glitch, reduce the rating of the smart armor by 1.

3) tally the use and ignore the smart armor once you've used it [rating] times.

It's convoluted, uses too many dice, and is in no way how I'd have designed it. But it does indeed work as written as long as you're not trying to read it like a computer program.

[DMiller]

Smart Armor...doesn't work in SR4. The rules make no sense. See this post.

Guys, can we allow the smart armor argument to go on in the smart armor thread and bring this list a bit closer to on topic? I hadn't posted this in some of the previous arguments as I hadn't seen links posted to threads already containing said arguments. This horse is being killed elsewhere...

If you think Smart Armor need hit with a Ban Hammer, just say so. *shrugs*

Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

[Draco18s]

2) test the damage value of the weapon, if > 10, roll [rating dice] and reduce the effectiveness of the smart armor by [hits]. So AP -6, Damage 12, Smart armor 4 (2 hits) has an end result of an effective AP rating of -4 (6 - 4 + 2). If you get a glitch, reduce the rating of the smart armor by 1.

AH HA. So you admit that having more smart armor is not as good as having less smart armor!¹ Every 3 dice you have (every 3 rating points) means that the hits on the Smart Armor test make the weapon shooting at the vehicle do more damage.

Effectively the same as "take your smart armor rating, divide by 3, multiply by 2. You have this much more armor."

¹Excepting glitches.

1) reduce the effectiveness of the AP by [rating] (by moving it towards 0). So AP -6 and smart armor 4 means the AP for that shot is only -2.

Towards zero? So a weapon that has +4 AP firing on a vehicle with 8 smart armor gets -4 AP? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
(Or same gun, against a 2 smart armor vehicle has +2 AP)
I think you meant towards positive infinity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Raiki]

To bring the topic back on...err...topic, I suggest: Any character based on a television/movie/general pop culture reference. Really guys, it's been done before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Besides, in 'that other game', I once had a new player try to make a catfolk bard named (and I shit you not) Lolcat.



Trust me, banning is safer.


~R~

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

AH HA. So you admit that having more smart armor is not as good as having less smart armor!¹ Every 3 dice you have (every 3 rating points) means that the hits on the Smart Armor test make the weapon shooting at the vehicle do more damage.

Effectively the same as "take your smart armor rating, divide by 3, multiply by 2. You have this much more armor."

¹Excepting glitches.

WHAT??? You got some wierd Ideas there Draco18s... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Smart Armor's only function is to help alleviate or eliminate (in some instances providing more effective armor than would otherwise be useable; ie. when a Weapon's AP goes positive and continues to increase) a Weapon's AP capabilities. That is all it does. It does not increase any weapon's damage in any way, shape, or form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

WHAT??? You got some wierd Ideas there Draco18s... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Smart Armor's only function is to help alleviate or eliminate (in some instances providing more effective armor than would otherwise be useable; ie. when a Weapon's AP goes positive and continues to increase) a Weapon's AP capabilities. That is all it does. It does not increase any weapon's damage in any way, shape, or form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You check the math here, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

2) test the damage value of the weapon, if > 10, roll [rating dice] and reduce the effectiveness of the smart armor by [hits]. So AP -6, Damage 12, Smart armor 4 (2 hits) has an end result of an effective AP rating of -4 (6 - 4 + 2). If you get a glitch, reduce the rating of the smart armor by 1.

Do you agree with it, or not? And if not, how would you do it?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You check the math here, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Do you agree with it, or not? And if not, how would you do it?

I use the Text in the Book for my rules. So lets look at them again, shall we? Here they are...

Smart armor cannot be concealed, but is superior to normal armor in that it has armor-piercing defeating properties. Small explosives spaced throughout the exterior of the vehicle prematurely detonate/deflect incoming fire, reducing the AP value of attacks by the smart armor's rating. Individuals near the exterior of the vehicle while smart armor is being used may be hit by shrapnel or other detritus from the explosions. If the vehicle is rigged and has the proper sensors, the controlling players may be able to detonate exterior charges in order to deal physical damage to opponents, using the smart armor's current rating as the Damage Value. Every time a heavy ballistic weapon or explosive (usually any weapon that does more than 10 DV) hits a vehicle with smart armor, roll a test using the smart armor's rating as the dice pool. Every hit is added to the firing weapon's AP value (thus rendering the smart armor less effective). A glitch on this test reduces the value of the smart armor by one. You may use the smart armor as many times as its rating. Once the smart armor has been exhausted, it must be replenished with a Logic + Armorer (rating, 1 hour) Extended Test in order to be ef fective again, at a cost of 500¥ per rating point

So.. Back to James Example. Hopefully, with the Above Rules we shall have some coherence.

DV 12, AP -6. Smart Armor Rating of 4 (2 Hits on the Roll). That is the Relevant Data From James' Example that you highlighted.

Now we look at the Above Rule. Relevant Part is Highlighted and Italicized.

So...

DV 12, AP -6 becomes DV12, AP -4 because of the Successes of the Smart Armor's Roll. (2 Successes)
There was no Glitch, so the Smart Armor retains its Rating of 4.
The Smart Armor has been used Once, so it now has Three remaining Uses before the Smart Armor is totally depleted.
The Smart Armor is now less Effective becasue it has used one of its "Charges" to protect the Vehicle.

That is the sum effect of Smart Armor... In no way did this result in the Weapon's DV Increasing in any way whatsoever. It cannot ever have that effect, as it will ONLY EVER Add its effects to the AP of the Weapon. Note. You will always add effects, regardless of whether the AP is -100 or +100...

Why is this so hard to understand?

[sabs]

wow you're .. so wrong it's not even funny. You willfully misread that rule completely.

DV 12, AP -6 becomes DV12 AP -8 because of the successes of the Smart Armor's roll (2 successes)
THere was no glitch so the smart armor retains it's rating of 4.
The smart armor has been used once

What it represents is that the weapon does 'so much damage' that it's detonating some of the smart charges on the outside of the vehicle.