[X] My Assistant

[DMiller]

At our table...
Banned:
Control Thoughts spell
Mind Probe spell

Modified:
SnS is large bore weapons only (shotguns, MMG, HMG)

We look very closely at optical magnification items for spell casters.

We don't have War! or any of the new mini-optional rules books, we are running SR4 with the SR4a update PDF and all of the errata.

-D

[Digital Heroin]

I'm loathe to ban anything in a game outright. For those really downright WTF items I either examine how to make it hard for the player to get them, or to make their life hell for using them.

As an example, try to bring out and emotitoy at a meet, and watch as the Johnson either outright closes negotiations, or asumes he's working with clowns and cuts the payment offered down substantially. Yeah, you'll be able to judge he thinks your a git better, but good luck changing his mind after.

[Oracle]

Possession Traditions

This is another one I don't get. Why?

[LurkerOutThere]

I don't want to get into a debate on but possesion gains a number of awesome things for very little drawbacks

1.The vodoo tradition has one of the best spirit spreads in the game.
2. Force multiplication: Possesing an enemy not only removes an enemy but adds an ally.
3. General overpoweredness: The ability to add not only ITNW but also the stat buffs to yourself or an ally at will is just silly, and then they added channeling to get rid of any potential drawbacks it has despite the fluff to the contrary.

[Oracle]

I don't want to get into a debate

Didn't want to start one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DMiller]

As an example, try to bring out and emotitoy at a meet, and watch as the Johnson either outright closes negotiations, or asumes he's working with clowns and cuts the payment offered down substantially. Yeah, you'll be able to judge he thinks your a git better, but good luck changing his mind after.

I agree. I usually drop the NPC attitude two points negative for this. Friendly drops to Suspicious, Neutral (which is normal for most Johnsons) to Prejudiced, etc. Sure a -2 doesn't offset the +6 from the emotoy completly, however now the face/team has an NPC that really doesn't trust them and is treated as such from that point until they redeem themselves. Oh and Hostile and Enemy does mean no job for you (I actually treat it as a failed mission and award a point of notoriety). Usually I'll award a point of notoriety for just using an emotoy as well.

-D

[Vuron]

Yeah Emotitoys are a bad addition to the game

I like emotion + lie detection software running during a meet. Especially if the face has a cybereye camera that he's got linked to his commlink so that he can share the data with his gunbunny bodyguard, the mage and the hacker running VR overwatch.

I don't like that package in a little furby that the runners place on the table during a meet. I especially don't like the cost being a fraction of what emotion software runs.

[Faelan]

I don't want to get into a debate on but possesion gains a number of awesome things for very little drawbacks

1.The vodoo tradition has one of the best spirit spreads in the game.
2. Force multiplication: Possesing an enemy not only removes an enemy but adds an ally.
3. General overpoweredness: The ability to add not only ITNW but also the stat buffs to yourself or an ally at will is just silly, and then they added channeling to get rid of any potential drawbacks it has despite the fluff to the contrary.

Good reasons. The fluff definitely makes it seem more hazardous than the rules play out. I rewrote a bunch of stuff for my regarding possession spirits, hitting them with a reasonable NERF bat. I require a vessel to be prepared or in an altered state (fugue, sick, long term depression), that way I get my Exorcist type possessions and prevent the easy possession syndrome. Oh well, when the Horrors show up watch the possession Mages get massacred, and hunted down.

[HunterHerne]

I agree with Faelan. Reduce the power of possession, don't ban it. If nothing else, use similar rules to mental manipulations, where the possessee gets the chance to resist, and keep resisting until free. This may be obsolete in many battles, since the fight might be over before they get a second resist attempt, but it's still something to think about.

Also, like most people, I have a short lit of what I`ll ban. And I`ll allow almost anything as long as they have a good, non-superpowered badass, reason for it. That list is Nosferatu. They are simply too powerful for the point cost. Possibly too powerful for anything other then extremely rare NPC.

[Titus]

The only things I would ban would border on the ridiculous. No Shadowrunning group should have tanks, anti-aircraft armaments with a 5,000 foot range, aircraft equivalent to the president of UCAS or a major corporation, nuclear bombs, a virus that can cause devastation that rivals the bubonic plague or anything similar. Most anything else could probably be tailored.

[Mr. Smileys]

At our table...
Banned:
Control Thoughts spell
Mind Probe spell

-D

What is your main reason for banning these two spells?

[Christian Lafay]

The only things I would ban would border on the ridiculous. No Shadowrunning group should have tanks, anti-aircraft armaments with a 5,000 foot range, aircraft equivalent to the president of UCAS or a major corporation, nuclear bombs, a virus that can cause devastation that rivals the bubonic plague or anything similar. Most anything else could probably be tailored.

So not a fan of having a nuke in the sidecar of a motorcycle that is rigged to explode upon death the death of the owner of said bike?

[Raiki]

At the risk of turning this into a possession debate after all, I have to say that nerfing possession mages is just silly. They already suffer major drawbacks compared to materialization mages that make up for the benefits they grant.

A ) Possession spirits cannot affect anything on the material unless they have a vessel.
B ) Vessels, even willing vessels, must resist a possession attempt. This includes the mage himself (although they always count as a prepared vessel and grant the spirit a +6 to their opposed roll).
C ) If the spirit fails a possession attempt against a target, that target is immune to possession attempts from that spirit for 24 hours.

A materialization spirit suffers no such drawbacks, they just materialize and start womping face.

This effectively forces upon possession mages an 'instant fail percentage' that just isn't equivalent to anything that materialization mages suffer.

Also, the possession mage (or other PC being possessed) must abdicate all control of their character in exchange for the "ITNW [and] stat buffs...at will". This is only marginally remedied by Channelling. A Channelling mage may use their own skills and does maintain control over their own actions, to an extent, but still has a strong mental/emotional overlay from the spirit.

They also use the lower of the two sets of mental abilities to resist any spells/powers/etc, so if you have a spirit with a high enough force to give you ITNW of any consequence (see discussions of the Drake rules for how useful ITNW 3-5 really is) then you're forfeiting half of those stat buffs anyway, since you'll be keeping your own mental stats.

This isn't to say that possession spirits aren't powerful. They are. All spirits are powerful. They're just powerful in different ways.

As for the spirit loadout of the Voodoo tradition, I can't argue with you there...it's pretty gross. If they had dropped one of the elemental spirits and added Plant, I would say that it was the most disgusting spread ever, but fortunately they were smart enough to never give Plant spirits to a possession tradition (as far as I can recall anyway).


~R~

[Draco18s]

Also, the possession mage (or other PC being possessed) must abdicate all control of their character in exchange for the "ITNW [and] stat buffs...at will". This is only marginally remedied by Channelling. A Channelling mage may use their own skills and does maintain control over their own actions, to an extent, but still has a strong mental/emotional overlay from the spirit.

That's why you have the spirit possess your armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

That's why you have the spirit possess your armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I don`t think we need any more of those shenanigans...

[DMiller]

What is your main reason for banning these two spells?

We found with a mage tailored towards mental manipulations these were just too abusable (along with any AOE versions).

Things like "shoot your friend in the head" and "shoot yourself in the head" made control thoughts too difficult to deal with. As for Mind Rape... err Mind Probe, I think that one is pretty obvious, but hey YMMV.

-D

[Raiki]

That's why you have the spirit possess your armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

This is allowed per RAW, however keep in mind that:

A) Unless the spirit is bound, it will disappear at sunup/sundown.
B ) If the spirit is bound, every time you ask it to possess your armour, that's another service.
C) If you keep a bound spirit in your armour for long periods of time I would (and I would encourage other GMs to as well) call 'Spirit Abuse' on your ass and have spirits start spending edge to resist your summoning/binding attempts.

Problem solved.


Edited: Syntax

~R~

[Draco18s]

This is allowed per RAW, however keep in mind that:

Mmmm....ally spirits....

[Raiki]

Mmmm....ally spirits....

If you enjoy the taste of black holes that's fine. Having tried to stat up an ally spirit for a possession mage myself, all I found is that it's like a roach motel for karma. Karma goes in, but it don't come out.

And on a more practical note, that's 2 initiations plus the cost of the spirit formula. On top of which, spirit abuse rules still apply to ally spirits, they just have a higher tolerance for metahuman bullshit than most others. But if they snap, you might as well just kill yourself now.


Edit: Also, I don't mean to be confrontational, by the way. I'm just an ex-debater, so I can come across that way sometimes.

~R~

[Faelan]

A ) Possession spirits cannot affect anything on the material unless they have a vessel.
B ) Vessels, even willing vessels, must resist a possession attempt. This includes the mage himself (although they always count as a prepared vessel and grant the spirit a +6 to their opposed roll).
C ) If the spirit fails a possession attempt against a target, that target is immune to possession attempts from that spirit for 24 hours.

A) And your point is what? Materialization Spirits can, but they can't do...
B) A possession Spirit with over a Force of 3 is going to possess the average unprepared NPC vessel 50% of the time. It gets worse from there since his ability to possess is directly linked to the only spirit stat that matters Force, which technically has no limit, while it is resisted by two attributes which do have limits. Fact the possession spirit is always at an advantage it takes its best attribute and compares it to two attributes which in many cases will not be anywhere near as good, and no knowledge or skill will allow you to protect yourself with any real ability. Banish only works after the fact and guess what once it has you in its grips you don't get to self exorcise. Materialization Spirits do not provide an instant WIN, Possession Spirits can and often do. Requiring a prepared vessel is not a huge restriction and it prevents an insta-win from happening.
C) Your point being what? The likelihood of it failing becomes lower and lower as the Force goes up. It is the only real limit on possession spirit use, and essentially limits the Mage to a set number of insta-win attempts, unless he chooses to dismiss and summon a new spirit to try again. This all at the grand cost of one complex action.

I would have to disagree with all your points and think it is rather silly to allow them in a game using the RAW of course YMMV.

[Raiki]

-snip-

I would have to disagree with all your points and think it is rather silly to allow them in a game using the RAW of course YMMV.

::Shrug::

I'm just saying that adding a fail % chance to something that doesn't usually have one is a limiting factor.

Also, I'm not a fan of the "high force spirits" argument. Once force gets above 6, it doesn't matter if your spirit manifests or possesses, it's going to kick ass, take names, and probably ruin your game. That's a problem with spirits in general, not possession spirits specifically.

For example: Materialization spirits have ITNW at a level equal to Fx2 (as do possession spirits, but hear me out). On top of this, the spirits agility, body, and reaction scores all scale with force. Add in that some spirits can take skills as additional powers, and you've got a materialization spirit whose ability to shoot, dodge and soak bullets is only limited by Force, an attribute that you yourself mentioned has no hard limit (but a soft limit of "when it kills you").

This spirit can outshine any Sam around, and is effectively an insta-win as well.


~R~

[Draco18s]

If you enjoy the taste of black holes that's fine. Having tried to stat up an ally spirit for a possession mage myself, all I found is that it's like a roach motel for karma. Karma goes in, but it don't come out.

Because wearing a possessed suit of military grade armor is made of sexy, sexy win.

[Faelan]

While a high Force Spirit is going to be a pain in the ass either way, one offers a path of resistance and hope, while the other takes all the players options away. That is why I limit possession spirits and requiring a prepared vessel is not that big a deal.

[LurkerOutThere]

I am pretty well convinced that anyone who defends possesion as balanced either A) Has never had someone play a possession mage at their tables or B) Is playign said possession mages.

The addition of a fail chance on possessing vessels nowhere near counteracts the tactical advantages the posesion confers. You may believe otherwise but i suspect you fall into one of the above categories.

[Raiki]

Because wearing a possessed suit of military grade armor is made of sexy, sexy win.

...Until that spirit decides it doesn't like you anymore and you commit suicide by jumping off of the highest nearby structure, as the spirit conveniantly unpossesses right before you hit the ground.

I am pretty well convinced that anyone who defends possesion as balanced either A) Has never had someone play a possession mage at their tables or B) Is playign said possession mages.

The addition of a fail chance on possessing vessels nowhere near counteracts the tactical advantages the posesion confers. You may believe otherwise but i suspect you fall into one of the above categories.

You're half right and 100% wrong.

I have played possession tradition mages before (I'm actually a voodoo fanboy, not just in SR but in life in general), though not with any of the ally spirit/invoking/chanelling/F12 spirit shenanigans that are so often brought up here to prove how "broken" they are. However, I'm not playing one currently, have had runners play them before in my previous games, and actually have someone playing a Qabbalist in my game right now. The spirits aren't quite as powerful as the voodoo layout is, but all of your other gripes would still apply.


Edit: Just noticed this.

That is why I limit possession spirits and requiring a prepared vessel is not that big a deal.

Requiring a prepared vessel is a HUGE deal (an all caps italicized sized deal even (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ). Imagine playing a standard mage and then having your GM say "Oh yeah, whenever you want to summon something you had better have a magical leaf that you meditated over for a week before hand, or you're screwed". Not to mention the cost of the reagents involved. To say that this isn't a big deal is ridiculous, and I say you have either never implemented it or never had a player play a possession mage, that is how patently absurd an idea this is.

~R~