[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because wearing a possessed suit of military grade armor is made of sexy, sexy win.

Not really... *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Sephiroth]

I am pretty well convinced that anyone who defends possesion as balanced either A) Has never had someone play a possession mage at their tables or B) Is playign said possession mages.

The addition of a fail chance on possessing vessels nowhere near counteracts the tactical advantages the posesion confers. You may believe otherwise but i suspect you fall into one of the above categories.

And whenever possession rules debates like this come up, I get the peculiar impression more often than not that people slamming possession especially brutally haven't read the possession clarification stuff in Digital Grimoire. Draco18's thing with possessed armor is specifically dealt with in DG, for example (though admittedly it would work better with military armor than other armor because of the Body x 3 limit for encumbrance with those).

[Raiki]

Well, let's try to get this thread back on topic.

As for things to ban, I would stick with what most people here are saying and not hard-ban anything.

Do, however, take a good hard look at anything out of WAR! (especially MRSI software, doubly especially if the troll tries to apply it to his smartbow). Also take a hard look at any builds that rely on strange metavariants, SURGE, or going down to .01 Essence.

Personally, in my game, I tell people that they're only allowed to be Incompetant in 1 thing; Not because most people aren't bad at more than one thing, but because Incompetant (Automotive Mechanic), Incompetant (Aeronautic Mechanic) etc. was starting to really irritate me.


~R~

[longbowrocks]

I've always outlawed Technomancers from my games. I leave them in the fluff, but don't allow them to be playable.

Why?

[baronspam]

.

Do, however, take a good hard look at anything out of WAR! (especially MRSI software, doubly especially if the troll tries to apply it to his smartbow). Also take a hard look at any builds that rely on strange metavariants, SURGE, or going down to .01 Essence.


~R~

I can get down to .01 Essence with just the basic rulebook. All you need it some focus and an enterprising spirit.

[Raiki]

I can get down to .01 Essence with just the basic rulebook. All you need it some focus and an enterprising spirit.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Yeah, and that's part of the fun of a cyber character. I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it, just that the OP might want to take a good look at any such builds. After all, who's going to get down to .01 except someone trying to squeeze every possible (mechanical) benefit out of their 6 points of essence?


~R~

[Yerameyahu]

… Honestly, probably a new player. They'll grab a few high-Essence things, a couple tiny ones, and find themselves there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I really can't see any problem with how much/little Essence someone has, because the dangers depend on what they got.

[Raiki]

… Honestly, probably a new player. They'll grab a few high-Essence things, a couple tiny ones, and find themselves there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I really can't see any problem with how much/little Essence someone has, because the dangers depend on what they got.

::Shrug:: I'm just saying that .01Ess should warrant a look. If it's because they got two cyber arms and a couple other small things, you probably don't have a problem. But if they have Alpha Wired II, Muscle Toner 4, Reaction Enhancers 3, blah blah blah, and then a datajack just to tip the cyber/bio back to a favorable outcome you should maybe look a little closer.


I personally think that all hyper-specialized builds should be scrutinized to see if they're going to cause problems during gameplay, but I was just listing some things that might be warning signs of potential System Abuse. As always, YMMV, but nobody likes to see a poor abused system lying on the side of the road with NERAPH!!1! tagged on it's face in bring orange spray paint.




~R~

[Medicineman]

Bah 0.1 Essence
Noobs
try to beat the 0.02 of my Char "Cyb Ork" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

with a boasting Dance
Medicineman

[Manunancy]

Modified:
SnS is large bore weapons only (shotguns, MMG, HMG)

I would alter than to shotguns, heavy pistols and HMG - today's 12-gauge shotguns have a 18mm bore, .50 is 12.7mm and a .45 is about 11.5mm. Most MMG are in .30 (7.62), on par with light pistols in bullet size.

[Blade]

FFBA : The only effect it has is giving every player who knows about them a few more armor dice for free.
Emotitoys : Empathy Software can be fixed by a house-rule, emotitoys are easier to ban than to fix.
Electric weapons, especially dart tasers : more powerful than guns, legal and quite cheap. Either every criminal is carrying one or every person who might get in combat with a criminal wears insulated armor.

[Grinder]

not only Stalahassee (= Stahlseele = Steelsoul (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
but every german Player

Wrong.

[The Jopp]

I would not ban spoofing life.

Spoofing life is not a positive quality so there are drawbacks.

Sooner or later some accountant will connect the dots and after about six months to a year certain actions can be traced back to the spoofer.

I would raise the risk the higher lifestyle of the character.

[Medicineman]

Wrong.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
every Gerrman Player that either owns it or checks it
go to Korinthen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hough!
Medicineman

[TheOOB]

I generally ban SnS ammo, though I have reintroduced it as a new ammo type that is rare, expensive, and not available for all weapon types. Gel rounds do stun damage just fine thank you.

[Grinder]

every Gerrman Player that either owns it or checks it

That's true. But stay away from generalization, ok?

[Raiki]

Bah 0.1 Essence
Noobs
try to beat the 0.02 of my Char "Cyb Ork" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

with a boasting Dance
Medicineman

Not to rain on your dance (unless that's what you were dancing for?), I'm sure you'll note the 0 that you dropped. A tiny, insignificant number, zero, but important nonetheless.

Also take a hard look at any builds that rely on strange metavariants, SURGE, or going down to .01 Essence.

Emphasis mine. (Sorry, I had to say it.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


With a wet dance.

~R~

[Medicineman]

Ok. Jup, Guess I did drop it ....
Gonna pick it up right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

He who dances in the Rain
Medicineman

[Socinus]

Honestly, I wouldn't ban anything.

Yes there are certain things I dislike about the system, but I've always considered banning an absolute last resort, especially in Shadowrun where there are DOZENS of solutions to even the most stubborn player build. I guarantee there is no player build within the rules that is un-killable or that cant be killed without turning TPK.

If you have a particular player abusing an aspect of the game, quietly discourage that in a calm conversation with the player.

Have some faith in your players; just because something CAN be abused doesn't mean it WILL be abused and it isn't fair (or fun) to punish players for something they haven't even done yet.

As a side note, BAN TECHNOMANCERS!? GAAAAHHHH! NOOOOOO!

[Dez384]

FFBA : The only effect it has is giving every player who knows about them a few more armor dice for free.
Emotitoys : Empathy Software can be fixed by a house-rule, emotitoys are easier to ban than to fix.
Electric weapons, especially dart tasers : more powerful than guns, legal and quite cheap. Either every criminal is carrying one or every person who might get in combat with a criminal wears insulated armor.

How is it easier to ban emotitoys when you can "fix" empathy software? They both function the same.

[Faelan]

Requiring a prepared vessel is a HUGE deal (an all caps italicized sized deal even (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ). Imagine playing a standard mage and then having your GM say "Oh yeah, whenever you want to summon something you had better have a magical leaf that you meditated over for a week before hand, or you're screwed". Not to mention the cost of the reagents involved. To say that this isn't a big deal is ridiculous, and I say you have either never implemented it or never had a player play a possession mage, that is how patently absurd an idea this is.

"The body of a magician or mystic adept is considered a
prepared vessel for any spirit he conjures, no special preparation
needed. Likewise, an astrally projecting character’s
empty body counts as an available vessel, whether it has been
specially prepared or not." - p.95 Street Magic

Also I should have been more specific, I noticed I left out the important part, I only require it for living targets. Possess the car, drone, statue, whatever all you want. I really tire of the way people fling the "You have never" around followed by casual references to something being silly or absurd. Try to be civil. I have had it happen, I have seen it abused, I have had the misfortune of playing with a power gamer, and GMing for one, so everything I can do to head off abuse before it happens saves a lot of arguing at the table. This one slipped by and that is why I enacted it, it was essentially a ban on free mind control.

[deek]

May I ask you for what reason?

We started playing our first campaign just weeks after the first SR4 core book came out and reading through it, the matrix was already overwhelming (and nowhere near as well-written as in the anniversary edition). I felt it added another dimension to an already hard to grasp ruleset, so I just made the call to say no TMs. I kind of introduced them as we played through Emergence, but my earlier ban combined with a lack of player desire has just kept them as plot device only.

So, really, it was timing and trying to reduce the amount of options to learn when we first started playing.

[Blade]

How is it easier to ban emotitoys when you can "fix" empathy software? They both function the same.

A software that captures non-verbal communication cues makes sense.
A software that analyzes them could be possible.
A character who spends several thousand nuyen for that software and has the skills to use it correctly should be able to get some bonuses on some rolls (mostly Judge Intention).

An emotitoy is a toy. It has the price range of a toy. A 6000 nuyens emotitoy won't happen (except maybe for a limited set for rich people). And there's no way a toy-priced object will be able to replicate the functions of a software that cost at the very least 1000 nuyen.
Seeing how that cheapest empathy software can't give less than 1 die, there's no reason for an emotitoy to give even 1 die of bonus.

And even if you could fix emotitoys, then you'd have a toy-priced object that gives some bonuses for social situations. A toy price isn't much to spend even if it's just for a +1 bonus, so it'd become something that it's absurd not to have, just like the smartlink. Except that it's a toy. Do you really want all runners to carry a toy to help them in social situations? I don't.

[Omer Joel]

I think I'll adopt a strategy of considering most stuff from the sourcebooks as the domain of the GM, except for the Qualities and Lifestyles in the Companion, maybe, and restrict starting characters to the core-book (and the Companion Qualities/Lifestyles) only. This way I could introduce the sourcebook stuff gradually, and refrain from introducing certain items, and thus avoid both an information overload and the power creep.

[Kyrel]

Ban outright? IMO nothing, beyond THOR Shots and Nukes. Stuff like that simply don't belong in a standard type Shadowrun game IMO, and neither should it be something that players can get their hands on. You could argue about rating 7+ comlinks etc., but as long as you apply some common sense and make things hard enough to get, and let the consequences of using them be high enough, no items tend to cause any problems.

There are plenty of ways for creative players to abuse various rules, but IMO you should simply deal with those if they occur. Tell your players to try and build characters based on "Rules As (likely) Intended" rather than RAW. If a given combo or item seems imensely powerful, then it probably wasn't intended to be used in that way.

Personally I have a long list of house rules and tweaks, but very little is outright banned from the game.


/Kyrel