[X] My Assistant

[Bushw4cker]

Body 3 is fine, in 4th ed. average is rating 2-3. Having a higher reaction is more important, being able to not get hit in the first place is better.

[Alucard]

He does bring up a good point, though. Honestly, I'd love to increase his body by two points, at least. Then I could wear my form-fitting body armor under my chameleon suit without incuring penalties to my reaction and agility or whatever. My problem is that... I could trim some equipment down and make the money to do it, but I don't have the essence to afford any of the mods (that I know of, at least) to increase my body. I wouldn't be able to afford alphaware M-B-W, and the reduction of used essence for my other 'ware is all negligible enough that I kinda feel that it's really not worth paying double the price for it. I dunno. I'm still open to suggestions, but as it stands I'm content with my body only being 3. Ideally it would be at least 5, but the way I see it, I have time to make the money to by alpha/beta 'ware later and then get myself some bone density augmenting.

[phlapjack77]

I'd say, don't worry about squeezing the last few dice out of anything - you can get caught up forever in this min/maxing of a character to get the "best possible dice pool". Get something that's playable that has a fun concept, and go with it. A few dice either way won't wreck a character or make them so much better.

[Udoshi]

How are you doing on leftover BP?

I ask because a Suprathyroid is one of the only ways of getting more Body from ware. Its not everyone's favorite piece of ware, due to hits high essence cost (0.7), or its availability(20F).
It costs 45k(9bp), and another 5 in Restricted Gear just to get it - but it does give you +1 to all your physical stats, which gives it an effective value of 40BP. Its downside can be canceled out with the Vegsin treatment, from augmentation.(15k, i think). In this case, I'd recommend dropping the restricted gear for the muscle augmentation - its cheaper, and something to work towards getting in play.

Speaking of getting stuff in play, Black Market Pipeline: Wares (runner's companion) might be worth considering. It gives you a great, easily accessable way to upgrade your ware later, and your team will love you for it.

you may want to consider swapping to an ork with Human Looking, since you have extra points on your quality limit. You should come out ahead.

At the very least, in addition to what you already have, I'd recommend Stealth and Encrypt for your commlink - not sure about the agent. They're handy, and 9 dice is respectable, but you need to use unwired program options on the programs its carrying if you don't want their ratings reduced.

[Alucard]

Phlapjack77, you're absolutely right. I agree whole heartedly. I'm not so much trying to min/max the character, but more optimize him, statistically. But yeah, one extra die here and there, it doesn't amount to much, and the dice pools I have as of now are more than acceptable for what my character does, which is essentially, get in some place without anyone knowing, possibly kill someone or another, and get out. Or possibly get in, get connected to a node and let my agent or my hacker get some data, and get out. In a pinch. In theory. LOL

Udoshi, I'm maxed out on my BP, but I'm flexible and have been able to shift things around. As for the cost of any enhancements, I can afford them. I spent the maximum amount of BP into resources, and then took 20 points of in debt to boost it. I've used up most of that money, but I can still adjust things here and there to make way for things. In short, I can afford damn near everything.

Except for 0.7 essence, unfortunately. I only have 0.6. Suprathyroid is pretty awesome honestly. Though having my character eat a lot would be kind of odd for him.

Here's what the story of the character is, in a very basic nutshell.

X (haven't named him yet) once had a very average life. He had a halfway decent job working for some subsidiary of some megacorp. He was a nobody, but he made a decent living (middle lifestyle, most likely). He had a fairly decent social life, with decent, regular friends, and he had a girlfriend whom he lived with and was completely in love with. One day, he met a guy at a bar. Not a seedy club, or anything. Think of like a college bar, or a pub and grill kinda place. Guy seemed nice enough. Said he knew easy ways for him to earn cash on the side. All he had to do was record his everyday humdum life. Especially the parts with his girlfriend. Said a lot of people would pay a lot of good nuyen just to get a taste of the domestic life of bliss he had. So, he wound up recording his home life with his girlfriend for BTL chips for this guy. The guy would come to him with client requests sometimes. Have her wear this. Take her to this restaraunt. All on the client, of course. One day, the guy had a client request for X to take his girl out to a picnic under the Arch (This is in St. Louis, btw). Nothing special, just have a happy, relaxed picnic under the arch and enjoy each other's company, and record it all for him. They were ambushed in the park by a gang. The gangers tortured and dismembered X, and took turns on his girl, until they (presumably) killed her. X passed into unconsciousness before he saw her ultimate fate. He thought he was dead. Then he awoke. He had been saved by the company (DocWagon with a different name, basically), and rebuilt with 'ware. The company saved his life, but his contract wasn't enough to cover his expenses, and he was pretty solid in debt. Luckily, they were looking for new recruits, and the 'ware they had used to rebuild him was perfect for their needs.

Flash forward and we have the character, now basically a cyberninja that's enslaved by his debt to the company that rescued him. He's a listless, almost lifeless character who really only wants to die, but at the same time is too much of a coward to do it himself. He realizes that the Mr. Johnson who hired him for the picnic had set him up for a snuff BTL show, not the peaceful picnic he had planned. He feels he's responsible for everything. And he's right. He feels almost no emotion other than anger, guilt, and pain. He's not a whiney emo kid about it, though. He just does his job, and waits patiently for it to kill him. He's now addicted to a collection of BTLs he had stashed away from his former life. Basically, every moment of downtime he gets, he indulges in his past, creating an ever increasing cycle of misery for himself and renewing his guilt. He keeps it in check by studying martial arts, and by following the teachings of The Hagakure, most notably the stuff about living your life as if you were already dead. He works well with his team, but only because he doesn't have enough of an opinion about any of them, or their work to make much of a difference. He just doesn't care. He doesn't make friends, but he's loyal, and reliable. It's that quality that they see in him to keep him around. Plus, they all work for the company, and the company says who stays and goes, anyway.

[Xenefungus]

I always thought that cyberware is a bad choice for a character focussed on stealth because 'ware scanners are everywhere and you dont want to trigger an alert just because of the chrome inside you.
So, cause cyberears and -eyes are already really easy to replace with external gear (goggles and earbuds) anyways, you might wanna consider changing the MBW to Synaptic Boosters. While this is a bit costlier indeed, it also frees up lots of essence which you do seem to care about quite a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) So you have more room for improvements during the game!
This would make you cyber-free which is a huge step towards being unnoticed. Just my opinion, of course! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thanee]

Synaptic Booster doesn't work for that kind of character, unless you want to settle with just the level 1. It's simply too expensive.

I would raise Body to 4 at least. For a combat-trained character it makes a lot of sense to be above the average there. And it is basically 1 damage box received less from every attack (1 Body + 2 Armor = 1 hit on average).

You know, that you can get alphaware at chargen? If you have enough money to afford it, you could get some of the ware in alpha to make it less essence-hungry.

All in all looks like a well-rounded character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Oh, reading your backstory two things come to mind...

- Negative Qualities (Records on File from Runners Companion would make sense; maybe Big Regret, because of the BTL stuff)
- Cyberlimbs (a custom obvious lower right cyberarm is all you need for your combat stuff (really easy way to get Agility and Strength to 9, only when using the arm, of course), maybe instead of the Muscle Augmentation, and Muscle Toner 2 would suffice then; biggest downside is, that it won't help with Athletics and such), if the gangers cut you up that bad, it does make sense, and from the Corp's pov it is pretty much the easiest way to turn an average guy into a combat monster, attribute-wise at least, there is still combat training needed.

Bye
Thanee

[Xenefungus]

Of course it works:

Synaptic Booster 2
Muscle Toner 4
Muscle Augmentation 4
Synthacardium 3

Thats exactly 250K. With his depts, thats some 20K to spare for equip, which should suffice. If he drops Muscle-Stuff to 2 both he has another 30K to spare and doesnt have to invest anything in Restricted Gear (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Where would you use Synaptic Boosters if not here Thanee?

[Thanee]

Where would you use Synaptic Boosters if not here Thanee?

For Adepts, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But yeah, if he would restrict himself a bit in terms of equipment (the commlinks and programs up there are ~30k already) it would be doable, but I don't think it is necessary, really.

Stealth doesn't necessarily mean you can sneak in anywhere. Sometimes you will just need a little tech help (for those scanners). The hacker needs something to do, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Depends a lot on how the GM runs the world, of course.

Bye
Thanee

[Xenefungus]

How I would build someone like him, quick draft (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Notes:
Karmagen, of course. Who would use BP? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
800 Karma but Race Cost = 2*BP Cost, roughly equals standard 750 Karma but is more streamlined.
If you don't think so: I didnt purchase any negative qualities. Drop Karma to 750 and go nuts with Sensitive System and stuff.
Martial Arts do not count as Qualities.
Originally i broke up the Stealth Group but as thats not RAW, undid it. Feel free to boost Infiltration and specialize if your GM is not a dick. If he is: Do spend your first Karma here, pump Infiltration.
Feel free to swap Unarmed for Blades, is intended to use Shocking Gloves of course but also strong enough to be good at "real" melee. Opted for Unarmed to be able to do stun, not easy with Blades.If you do get Blades, get the two Styles that boost Blade Damage.
Get Human Looking if you think you must.
No Gear purchased as of now. In Debt luckily does not exist at my table. Feel free to differ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Generated with SR4CG 1p_fix


RACE: Ork

ATTRIBUTES Walk/Run 10 25
Body: 5 Charisma: 2 EDGE: 3
Agility: 5 [9] Intuition: 4 Phys Init 10[12]
Reaction: 6 [8] Logic: 3 Passes 1[3]
Strength: 5 [9] Willpower: 3 Essence: 3,1

ACTIVE SKILLS
Athletics (Group) 4
Stealth (Group) 4
Perception (Hearing) 4 (+2)
Hardware (Maglocks) 4 (+2)
Unarmed Combat (Parrying) 4 (+2)
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) 4 (+2)
Locksmith (Tumbling) 2 (+2)


Cyber/Bioware:
Synaptic Booster (1-3) 2
Muscle Toner (1-4) 4
Muscle Augmentation (1-4) 4
Synthacardium (1-3) 3


QUALITIES
Low-Light Vision
Restricted Gear 10
Restricted Gear 10
Erased (24 hours) 20

MARTIAL ARTS
CAP +1 Gymnastics Dodge
NIN +1 Gymnastics Dodge
NIN +1 Infiltration Tests

MANUEVERS
Finishing Move

[Thanee]

Uhhh... you used Karma Gen with x3 Attributes there, right?

I don't think that's a fair comparison. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Besides, if the GM uses BP, then BP it is.

Bye
Thanee

[Xenefungus]

No, it's x5 of course. Everything else is nonsense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bushw4cker]

Except for 0.7 essence, unfortunately. I only have 0.6. Suprathyroid is pretty awesome honestly. Though having my character eat a lot would be kind of odd for him.

Essence Cost: All cyberware and bioware implants have an Essence
cost, representing the reduction of the character’s Essence rating
that occurs when the ’ware is implanted. Essence costs for cyberware
and bioware are tracked separately; subtract the higher value
in full from the character’s Essence, but only half the lesser value
(Essence, p. 68).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Essence Cost: All cyberware and bioware implants have an Essence
cost, representing the reduction of the character’s Essence rating
that occurs when the ’ware is implanted. Essence costs for cyberware
and bioware are tracked separately; subtract the higher value
in full from the character’s Essence, but only half the lesser value
(Essence, p. 68).

And your Point? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Alucard]

I think I see the point, actually... I tracked my essence wrong, and should have more to spare, since I reduced all of it at full.

Also, yeah, while I have access to all the stuff in all the books, I do have to use the BP system for creating my character.

And yeah, changing my metatype to ork would be beneficial. But it costs BPs which I'm not willing to give up. Also, if I had my way, we'd be playing an SR game with no magic or metatypes. I prefer the standard cyberpunk style game over the cyberpunk fantasy mix. So I rarely, if ever, play metatypes. As it stands, though, I don't have my way, and in fact, I'm playing the only human PC.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think I see the point, actually... I tracked my essence wrong, and should have more to spare, since I reduced all of it at full.

Also, yeah, while I have access to all the stuff in all the books, I do have to use the BP system for creating my character.

And yeah, changing my metatype to ork would be beneficial. But it costs BPs which I'm not willing to give up. Also, if I had my way, we'd be playing an SR game with no magic or metatypes. I prefer the standard cyberpunk style game over the cyberpunk fantasy mix. So I rarely, if ever, play metatypes. As it stands, though, I don't have my way, and in fact, I'm playing the only human PC.

Yep, Got it.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Xenefungus]

The point is, being ork does NOT cost points, effectively. Its only 20BP, which would be 2 attribute points, but gives 5 of those for free. That's why ork is (almost) always better. As for the style, just get human looking, as said before.

[Thanee]

No, it's x5 of course. Everything else is nonsense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Good, good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Udoshi]

And yeah, changing my metatype to ork would be beneficial. But it costs BPs which I'm not willing to give up.

The Before: Human
Body 3
Agility 5 (8 )
Reaction 3 (7)
Strength 3 (6)
(2+4+2+2)x10=100BP on physical atts
Charisma 2
Intuition 4
Logic 4 (6)
Willpower 3
(1+3+3+2)*10=90bp on mental attributes.
cost: 100+90=190BP before augmentations.

The After: Human Looking Ork
Race Cost: 20bp
Human Looking 5
Body 4 (costs 0!)
Agility 5 (costs 40)
Reaction 3 (costs 20)
Strength 3 (costs 0!)
60BP on physical attributes
Charisma 2 (costs 10)
Intuition 4 (costs 30)
Logic 4 (costs 30)
Willpower 3 (costs 20)
90BP on mental attributes
60+90+20+5=175

Same stats. 15 more points. Even paying for your edge 2 back, you're 5 points ahead.

That being said, humans are pretty awesome - if you're going to do it, be an edge monkey.

[Alucard]

Okay, you know what? Looking at that is a damned fine argument. You've convinced me. I can handle playing the metatype in that fashion. Heck, could even play it off like he doesn't even necessarily know he's an ork. Maybe, not sure if that'd work or not. But yeah, coming out ahead with 5 BPs could help me out some.

Also, a quick question, and I think I saw something on another thread. Heck, it's 3:30 am here so my mind is a little fuzzy at the moment, but what's the difference between having dodge skill and gymnastics, with the gymnastics dodge? Is there a reason to have both? I'm considering dropping dodge and boosting gymnastics and just using that for my dodge pools and to add flavor to the character. Your opinions/statistical advice?

[phlapjack77]

I'll try to answer this dodge / gym question, mostly to also test my own knowledge of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To defend against ranged attacks, you normally just roll Reaction. If you take a Full Defense, you can roll Dodge OR Gymnastics in addition to Reaction. Using Gym to avoid damage is just called a "gymnastics dodge"

To defend in melee, you roll Reaction + [melee or dodge] skill. If you take a Full Defense, you can roll Reaction + [(2 x melee) or (melee + dodge) or (2 x dodge)] skill.

So there are lots of permutations. The thinking is, if you're already taking a melee skill, you can use this skill in melee to defend. So the question is whether to get Dodge or Gym for ranged defense. Since you can use Gym for other things besides avoiding attacks (plus get bonuses from things like Synthacardium), it's the "better" option. I'd say the only "downside" is whether you want to specialize in Gym for better defense for another +2, and whether your GM allows it.

Someone step in if I've got my thinking wrong here...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Minor Point... you cannot use Gymnastics Dodge for Vehicle Combat. For that You need Dodge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[phlapjack77]

good point - riggers / wheel-men might want to take Dodge instead...

once again, I'd say just pick whatever fits the concept best - it seems your infiltrator / ninja-ish concept would work well with Gym instead of Dodge, so go with it.

[Alucard]

Well, I see that no mention was made about melee dodging with gymnastics dodge. Is it able to be used in melee? Or just ranged? Basically, since in melee I can roll my Reaction + Melee + Dodge, does that mean I can instead roll Reaction + Melee + Gymnastics? Or Reaction + 2x Gymnastics?

[phlapjack77]

I don't have a 100% definitive answer...

hmmm, just now re-reading the Gym. Dodge section. Gym Dodge is a Full Defense, so - "may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks." This sounds like a player can add Gym to the base dice pool, so for melee, the base pool is Rea + [melee or dodge], so a Gym Dodge for melee would be Rea + [melee or dodge] + Gym.

So I think options for melee defense are Rea + [melee or dodge]

Full Defense melee would be Rea + [2xmelee or 2xdodge or melee+dodge or melee+gym]

I'm not sure why you're wanting to use Dodge OR Gym in melee? You have a really high weapon skill, and your unarmed seems to be specialized in parrying. I don't see a lot of situations in melee where you wouldn't use those skills...it's possible you might be caught without your weapon, and unarmed parrying somebody else's weapon might suck, but I don't think that would come up that often...