The ability of Contacts Options

[mister__joshua]

I have a question regarding contacts, and wondered how this was handled by other people. AFAIK there isn't an official rule on how this works.

I am Bob Shadowrunner. I want a contact that is a street doc. I want to spend 2 build points (Connection 1, Loyalty 1)
I can take Doctor Phil, unlicenced but really good honestly, I won't sell your 'spare' bits street doc. OR
I can take Doctor Phil, former Doc Wagon emergency surgeon who ended up in the shadows after the Crash. Or, for that matter
I can take Doctor Phil, 4 times initiated healing Shaman

All could have the same loyalty and connection, but for a contact who's connections don't really matter to you, you just want them for their abilities (medic, mage, hacker), what determines how good a contact is? I suppose you could always say it's up to the GM, but I've always liked the idea that starting character pick their own contacts.

Thoughts?

Cheers

[Blade]

To me, Connectivity is also about the skill of the contact, especially for contacts whose primary purpose is their skills rather than who they know.

[Oracle]

To me, Connectivity is also about the skill of the contact, especially for contacts whose primary purpose is their skills rather than who they know.

That's how we do it in my group.

[phlapjack77]

Main SR book and Runners Companion have some stats for various contacts...not sure if they have a street doc or not

I think a PC should be able to pick a contact's background to a certain extent, but not to the extent that it would give them any real in-play bonuses

[Dakka Dakka]

I think a PC should be able to pick a contact's background to a certain extent, but not to the extent that it would give them any real in-play bonuses

Exactly and moreover connection explicitly is not what a contact can do but who he knows and what pull he has with those people.
Concerning the street doc example, if the GM permits, you could go with the best shut-in (Connection 1) healer in the world (M.D., Initiate etc. you name it), but that doc would constantly be understocked, could not help you find new ware etc. as those things are not part of his skillset and he has to actually know people who have this stuff. Aditionally, since he never talks to anyone he would not know about for example overdoses of a new drug that fills the ERs of the city.

How realistic a shut in luminary in the medical field however is up to your GM and you.

[Cain]

Dakka's got it. A Connection of 1 isn't precisely what the contact's skills are, it's what the character can do for you. At connection 1, you've got a decent working relationship with someone who can reliably patch you up, no questions asked. If he does this magically, conventionally, or both really doesn't matter. But he wouldn't be of much use for you when you need info, new 'ware, or leads.

[mister__joshua]

Dakka's got it. A Connection of 1 isn't precisely what the contact's skills are, it's what the character can do for you. At connection 1, you've got a decent working relationship with someone who can reliably patch you up, no questions asked. If he does this magically, conventionally, or both really doesn't matter. But he wouldn't be of much use for you when you need info, new 'ware, or leads.

Well, this is sort of what I was getting at. This is how I've always seen it, but in this case what mechanical reason is there to ever have your street doc contact as a dodgy patch man over the former docwagon surgeon? These contacts are (or can be, at least) all statted out. The first example would have maybe half a dozen dice in first aid, the second would have over double that, and would have medicine and biotech as well probably.

The first 2 replies suggesting using Connection as something more akin to Ability would work. So for someone like Doc it's their ability, but for a Fixer etc it's still all about who they know. I'm still not sure

[Aerospider]

Well, this is sort of what I was getting at. This is how I've always seen it, but in this case what mechanical reason is there to ever have your street doc contact as a dodgy patch man over the former docwagon surgeon? These contacts are (or can be, at least) all statted out. The first example would have maybe half a dozen dice in first aid, the second would have over double that, and would have medicine and biotech as well probably.

The first 2 replies suggesting using Connection as something more akin to Ability would work. So for someone like Doc it's their ability, but for a Fixer etc it's still all about who they know. I'm still not sure

There shouldn't be a direct link between Connection and the contact's personal ability, though they are related by proxy through the contact's story. That is to say, both Connection and stats should be supported through who the guy is and what he gets (or has been) up to. It is unlikely that an Initiate of grade 4 would have so little involvement with the Awakened community as to have a Connection of 1 but not impossible – so long as his story supports these things in conjunction then it's ok.

As for balance I personally approach it like the procurement of any resourse – the more you want the more it costs. With a loyalty of 1 you're not going to get any discounts for friendship so if your contact is pretty decent at what he does you'll find he charges more for his assistance than if he were a med-school dropout scraping a living in the gutter. Market behaviour dictates that more skillful professionals will charge more if only because they can. With high loyalty ratings it gets a bit trickier because there will be some things for which the contact won't charge the PC even if they are really good at what they do, so to keep a sense of balance I have the less-able contacts go the extra mile to compensate for what they lack.

So, suppose you need patching up. Here are some loose examples:

Loyalty 1, superior skills – Charged superior skills rate.
Loyalty 1, inferior skills – Charged inferior skills rate.
Loyalty 6, superior skills – On the house buddy.
Loyalty 6, inferior skills – On the house buddy. Could you find a use for these spare stim patches? You know, my sister's not seeing anyone right now...

[Cain]

Well, this is sort of what I was getting at. This is how I've always seen it, but in this case what mechanical reason is there to ever have your street doc contact as a dodgy patch man over the former docwagon surgeon? These contacts are (or can be, at least) all statted out. The first example would have maybe half a dozen dice in first aid, the second would have over double that, and would have medicine and biotech as well probably.

The first 2 replies suggesting using Connection as something more akin to Ability would work. So for someone like Doc it's their ability, but for a Fixer etc it's still all about who they know. I'm still not sure

A Connection 1 street doc can reliably patch you up. What his exact stats are doesn't matter, since that's all he'll be useful for. According to the rules, he's mostly a source of Knowledge skills. A higher connection would mean he could reliably get his hands on better drugs, better equipment, and so on. A Docwagon surgeon might have access to that equipment, but not the clearance to sneak it out to the runners. A Connection 1 Fixer would mostly be good as an information broker, a line into the rumor mill at best.

[mister__joshua]

There shouldn't be a direct link between Connection and the contact's personal ability, though they are related by proxy through the contact's story. That is to say, both Connection and stats should be supported through who the guy is and what he gets (or has been) up to. It is unlikely that an Initiate of grade 4 would have so little involvement with the Awakened community as to have a Connection of 1 but not impossible – so long as his story supports these things in conjunction then it's ok.

As for balance I personally approach it like the procurement of any resourse – the more you want the more it costs. With a loyalty of 1 you're not going to get any discounts for friendship so if your contact is pretty decent at what he does you'll find he charges more for his assistance than if he were a med-school dropout scraping a living in the gutter. Market behaviour dictates that more skillful professionals will charge more if only because they can. With high loyalty ratings it gets a bit trickier because there will be some things for which the contact won't charge the PC even if they are really good at what they do, so to keep a sense of balance I have the less-able contacts go the extra mile to compensate for what they lack.

So, suppose you need patching up. Here are some loose examples:

Loyalty 1, superior skills – Charged superior skills rate.
Loyalty 1, inferior skills – Charged inferior skills rate.
Loyalty 6, superior skills – On the house buddy.
Loyalty 6, inferior skills – On the house buddy. Could you find a use for these spare stim patches? You know, my sister's not seeing anyone right now...

I like this. Cheers. That's something to think on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mister__joshua]

A Connection 1 street doc can reliably patch you up. What his exact stats are doesn't matter, since that's all he'll be useful for. According to the rules, he's mostly a source of Knowledge skills. A higher connection would mean he could reliably get his hands on better drugs, better equipment, and so on. A Docwagon surgeon might have access to that equipment, but not the clearance to sneak it out to the runners. A Connection 1 Fixer would mostly be good as an information broker, a line into the rumor mill at best.

I get what you're saying. A street doc is a street doc and his stats don't matter cos he fixes you up and that's all he does. Maybe street doc was a bad example then. Let's instead think hacker. A recluse of a hacker with connection 1. In this case, a Hacker has many uses, and his usefulness is directly related to his skill and not who he knows, it's all about what he can achieve.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

You pull up the 'buying a better hacker' list or whatever and there is what a hacker can and can't do for you. Higher connection means it happens faster. Remember, you're dealing with a (friendly) NPC here, so even a particularly skilled NPC hacker is still unlikely to be particularly exemplary. The high connection means the hacker has buddies and resources to help, while the lack of connection means the hacker is going to work on her own and so be severely limited.

While connection may not be a direct measure of a contact's ability, I think it should be a direct measure of what they can do for you, because honestly, very little happens in the vacuum of a single person. The street doc with connection 1 may be skilled, but will have trouble getting even fairly basic medicine and equipment, so hope you enjoy surgery without pain killers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The hacker with connection 1 may be skilled, but will have trouble getting programs or getting people together for larger hack jobs.

[LurkerOutThere]

We've actually had this discussion amongst my group, we floated a houserule to represent individual competence. Never got traction though. By and large i figure most of your contacts won't be prime runners, they'll have 8-14 dice in the primary area of skill and anyhting else is accomplished by handwavium and common sense. It's not that they arn't good at their jobs, they just shouldn't be a crutch for the PC's.

[Dakka Dakka]

By and large i figure most of your contacts won't be prime runners, they'll have 8-14 dice in the primary area of skill and anyhting else is accomplished by handwavium and common sense.

That's the way I do it as well

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And if I remember correctly, at least for the Street Doc example, there is a Chart in the Advanced Medtech Rules in Augmentation that gives you a range of Skill based upon what/where the Doc works, From Base Street to Delta Clinic...

[Vuron]

I pretty much see Connections/Competency as the same thing.

A StreetDoc would have more of his resources focused on training, access to drugs, cyberware/bioware access, access to clean operating rooms and post-op, etc.

A Fixer has focused more of his finite resources on how to grease wheels, and connect people to other people, acquire objects, fence loot, set up meets.

For me a connections 1 street doc is probably a disgraced former doctor, or a surgical nurse with some training, or a med tech, or maybe even a vet. They are competent at patching people up and keeping stuff like gunshot wounds out of police reports, etc. They have access to basic drugs and can provide post-operative care but their ability to handle complex medical stuff like transplants, cyberware attachment, etc is probably pretty limited.

Connections 2 is middle of the road, probably has access to fairly nice pharmaceuticals and standard cyberware/bioware, maybe even some alphaware, but probably can't do cultured bioware or genetech. Standard operating room with a surgical nurse and someone who can help with post op.

Connections 3 is a shadow clinic street doc, they can do cool stuff and have access to cool if not quite cutting edge ware.

Connections 4 or 5 is heavy hitters in Medtech, cutting edge stuff like Deltaware and military grade cyberware packages

[James McMurray]

The player decides what type of contact he wants. The GM determines the stats. If the player wants an ex-surgeon, maybe he's an ex-surgeon because he's a drunk and his skills have deteriorated over the years. Given the loyalty 1, the PC probably doesn't even know about it until he sees the shaky hand right as the anesthesia kicks in.

Whatever the background and stats mash up, 'he's not a crutch" is the right mantra.

[Rubic]

Alternate interpretation:

Connection is a combination of the contact's aptitutude, resources, and exactly how much they're willing to commit to you.

example:
Jacob Grant, a.k.a. the fixer Sonny Dei, knows everybody who's everybody, and most who are nobody. He's got an overall, personal connections rating of 6 and dines with Lofwyr regularly. You pull him as a L6 C2 contact. He likes you, hell he may have set you up with several of his sisters, his aunt, and/or his mother before. He'll drag you about for a night on the town when you're not busy running. However, he has responsibilities to OTHER contacts who he also likes, and so you can't expect to be secretly field-testing the latest Ares masterpiece, or picking up any rare jewels from the depths of the Amazon from his pipelines. You're a good kid, as far as he's concerned, but business is still business, and you need to put in a little more before you get more out of it.

Reasonable?

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

That makes sense. I've occasionally been in a position where I wanted someone as a contact but they should have had more connection than I could really afford, and that sounds like a reasonable way to handle things. Sure, you know a deltaclinic surgon and she is your best friend, but he just isn't willing/able to pass out deltaware stuff to you despite how much she likes you.

[Wakshaani]

I tend to use connection as, roughly, how many 'services' a contact will do for you.

Connection 1 will essentially do one thing ... the street doc will patch you up, but he won't implant cyber or get rid of bodies for you.

Connection 2 will do a couple things... the bartender will keep you up on local gossip AND let you meet in the backroom. Or he'll give you cheap drinks AND can arrange to have a mobster meet you.

Connection 3 will do a few things ... the street cop won't arrest you for walking around, will talk (for bribes), and will let you know if an APB goes out for you (But you'll owe him one) ... or he'll bail your as out of jail, give you a place to sleep for a night, and can track down Grid Guide ID numbers from the DMV.


Connection 4 will do a lot of things ... the corp secretary will be able to get you a list of who her boss has been meeting, slip you some tickets to swank events her boss doesn't want to attend, tell you when company events are going on (The easier to pick an extraction target from a picnic or break in when no one's at the office), and, oh yes, a little sumtin sumtin on the side.

And so on.

It's not the best system in the world, but it gives everyone a rough idea of what they're getting. Connection 1 people are generally there for just one thing ... the BTL dealer deals, the doc will patch you up, the talismonger will sell you supplies, but that's about it. You want more favors, you pay more points.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Also sounds good, with loyalty being how likely he is to do those things for you.

[Rubic]

That's roughly what I'm doing, Wakshaani, although worded a bit differently. We're both focusing on what a contact will provide per connection rating. I'm just saying that what a contact has access to and what YOU have access to through that particular contact are not necessarily on the same level.

To use your examples:

Connection 1 Cyberdoc: he won't dispose of bodies for you... however, he knows how to get in touch with Tammanous or some ghouls for a drop-off, though he doesn't think you're discreet or cautious enough to pull it off safely. He's really a C2 or 3, but you only get C1 because you only bought C1.

Connection 2 Bartender: Cheap drinks and access to the back room for quiet meetings are roughly what you get out of him. What you don't know is he used to be in with Blood Bowl sporting events, and can score event seating with advanced notice. He doesn't do it often, because he hasn't met many worth their salt who were really into it, and you've never asked so he never tells. Maybe if you got the riffraff away from his part of the street or helped him pick up a few nuyen on the side he'd let you in on it. C3 or 4 overall, but you just get 2.

and so on.

[Badmoodguy88]

Sounds good.

But to put it in vanilla game terms you might think about a favor having a monetary value, as you might be paying them anyway. The difference between what you would normally pay would factor into things. You might even pay them extra, he is a friend right? Potentially anyway. It does not have to be all one sided. Anyway having someone to go to for stuff, and who won't burn you is worth it. But I guess that is more a function of loyalty.

My only reservation is that level 6 contacts seem improbable from a standpoint of how influential they are supposed to be, but if it is only a factor of how much their favors and information is worth than I guess that makes more sense. I would be tempted to make a separate ratting for something like how good they are at granting the favors they do, but that is unnecessary tedium I guess.

[Wakshaani]

Loyalty tends to deal more with prices. A connection 4 type will do you a solid now and then because you're good for it (For example, as a regular customer at a few eateries, every so often the girls will give me a free meal. Always nice!) and will certainly cut you a deal on stuff (I can get it for you wholesale!) ... meanwhile, a loyalty 1 type only cares about your cash. Once again, the 1/1 BTL dealer is willing to sell to you, and that's about it. You're just a walking credstick as far as they care. The Connection 1/Loyalty 4 BTL dealer, meanwhile, slips you some new stuff to try out, since you give good reviews, and makes sure to call you as soon as your personal favorite chips come in. (Hey, Frank? It's Scab. Look, I just got a new load of Trannie Trolls in. Only four copies, but, you get dibs. Yeah, thought so. See you in thirty.)

Mind you, I cap ratings at 4 for my game (The infamous "Shadowrun 320" campaign) for a starting character, so, nobody starts with MAJOR contact stuff, but, if you work at it, you can get these things up way high. Nothing like a contact that eventually turns into a CEO's brother in law, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

I figure like you said loyalty is worth a discount. I am just say to put it in more quantitative terms you might consider that loyalty to have a monitary value. I don't think of my freinds that way but we are talking game balance and stuff, right? If the contact ratting is how deep they can reach with a favor and loyalty how willing they are to reach deep. It is easy to do case by case. You are constantly thinking how much it would take to bribe someone or pay someone.

I guess what ever ratting your contact is, they should be worth that ratting. If they are fully utilized or cleverly overcapitalized upon is a different issue. Lets imagine that lowly street doc. The amount of use he should be able to provide should be equal to a crash cart doc, or a delta clinic doc of the same contact ratting.

Lets say they are all level 3 connections contacts. These are each professionals, of possibly equal skill, but varying circumstances.

The street doc probably knows more shadow runners, has some weapons skills (so is less fearful of that kind of risk), he is more accessible being his own boss and not living in a closed community, and he is probably the only one who can treat runners in his clinic and charge what he feels like.

The crash cart doc is middle class, he has more money, access to more stuff, and knows a lot of other doctors, he might be able to slip you some medical supplies swiped from work, give free first aid in off hours, or fudge a few forms when your do end up in a hospital so as to not raise alarms with lonestar. In his personal live he knows doctors, may know and be freindly with law enforcement (crash carts come to the aid downed officer too), he may frequent nightclubs and know people from that or some other hobby. He probably lives in a nice neighborhood but not a corporate enclave.

The delta doc is a high valued asset for some corp or criminal organization. He does a lot of work, and a lot of it is on a need to know basis where he does not need to know. He can't sneak friends in on the week end and chrome them out or even patch their wounds. He can treat them at his home, and probably for free, if they can get into see him in his corporate paid and highly monitored home. If the runners progress to the point of being important enough that getting deltaware is not out of the question then the contact can facilitate things to make it happen sooner and smoother.

"Hey I mentioned you to the boss, you're going to have to do some stuff but it shouldn't be anything you can't handle, oh and he told me to put a cranial bomb in you as a precaution but don't worry I'll just fake it. It's not like they don't know you could just get it removed if you found out we slipped you one. And your a runner you are going to suspect we slipped you a cranial bomb. It is like standard with these guys. We should call it a number four; state of the art chrome with a side of cranial bomb and a small fry. Because why not blow up that quarter million credits worth of ware we just stuck in you?! So anyway they won't suspect me if they pull the switch and no boom. Just play along if they threaten you right off the bat."