[X] My Assistant

[LurkerOutThere]

Alternate interpretation:

Connection is a combination of the contact's aptitutude, resources, and exactly how much they're willing to commit to you.

example:
Jacob Grant, a.k.a. the fixer Sonny Dei, knows everybody who's everybody, and most who are nobody. He's got an overall, personal connections rating of 6 and dines with Lofwyr regularly. You pull him as a L6 C2 contact. He likes you, hell he may have set you up with several of his sisters, his aunt, and/or his mother before. He'll drag you about for a night on the town when you're not busy running. However, he has responsibilities to OTHER contacts who he also likes, and so you can't expect to be secretly field-testing the latest Ares masterpiece, or picking up any rare jewels from the depths of the Amazon from his pipelines. You're a good kid, as far as he's concerned, but business is still business, and you need to put in a little more before you get more out of it.

Reasonable?

In a word no, at least not in terms of the system as it sits. A contact in my mind shouldn't have multiple incarnations. Further at least by the book a contact with loyalty 6 by definition will do literally anything for you within their means.

Now i'll grant that the current system in the book is somewhat lackluster for situations exactly like this. A rating scale 1-6 is ill equiped to map those folks who are supremely well connected, it won't map the fastjacks of the world very well. FUrther it should be entirely possible to be really really good at your job without being well connected. There's an example in the virtual realities book about the best programmer on the planet. He's kept in isolation and thrown joygirls and novacoke and allowed to play online games, and in exchange he turns out awesome IC and program code. That guy should have a connection of 1 or 0 but his skills should be top notch. Similarly a retired chief surgeon from Seattle General should have almost no contacts to speak of (especially in the shadow community, which is what contacts represent) but aught to be very competent.

Hence my feeling that an ideal system would have a 1-10 rating and have Loyalty/Competence/Connection but that would be a significant rebuild on the current system.

[redwulf25]

I have a question regarding contacts, and wondered how this was handled by other people. AFAIK there isn't an official rule on how this works.

I am Bob Shadowrunner. I want a contact that is a street doc. I want to spend 2 build points (Connection 1, Loyalty 1)
I can take Doctor Phil, unlicenced but really good honestly, I won't sell your 'spare' bits street doc. OR
I can take Doctor Phil, former Doc Wagon emergency surgeon who ended up in the shadows after the Crash. Or, for that matter
I can take Doctor Phil, 4 times initiated healing Shaman

All could have the same loyalty and connection, but for a contact who's connections don't really matter to you, you just want them for their abilities (medic, mage, hacker), what determines how good a contact is? I suppose you could always say it's up to the GM, but I've always liked the idea that starting character pick their own contacts.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Connection 1 Loyalty 1? That's "Doctor" Bob who flunked out of Veterinary school. He's constantly drunk and in debt to organleggers. You want your streetdoc to have a higher rating in both.

[mister__joshua]

Connection 1 Loyalty 1? That's "Doctor" Bob who flunked out of Veterinary school. He's constantly drunk and in debt to organleggers. You want your streetdoc to have a higher rating in both.

Well, that was only an example to demonstrate my point. Although, as a counter, my thoughts were as Lurker said above, that a contact shouldn't be crap at his job just because he's not well connected. He said it better than me though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

While I agree with Lurker, I do want to point out just how far to the other direction connections can go.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/seattle...son-4-contacts/ is the Missons contact list. Connection 5 = Bull's Prime Runner OR the head of the Seattle Atlantean Foundation branch. Decide for yourself what Connection 6 would mean in Missions.

[Rubic]

In a word no, at least not in terms of the system as it sits. A contact in my mind shouldn't have multiple incarnations. Further at least by the book a contact with loyalty 6 by definition will do literally anything for you within their means.

Not exactly ANYTHING. They will do what they believe to be the absolute best for you in such a situation. They'll put a roof over your head, lie to/bribe the cops... but giving you that prototype weapon that does ungodly amounts of damage might get you beaten and robbed out on the streets, since you haven't shown them that you know how to handle yourself. Perhaps you're not the ONLY one who has a Loyalty 6 with them, and maintaining contact ratings through RP/gifts/improving their business is important (at least as far as common sense and fluff goes). As I said, they like you, and they'd gladly give you their support, but then business is a completely different matter, and they have responsibilities. Come by when the heat is on, or when you have some spare time and/or cash, but you don't get top-shelf merch until you can reach it, figuratively speaking.

Now i'll grant that the current system in the book is somewhat lackluster for situations exactly like this. A rating scale 1-6 is ill equiped to map those folks who are supremely well connected, it won't map the fastjacks of the world very well. FUrther it should be entirely possible to be really really good at your job without being well connected. There's an example in the virtual realities book about the best programmer on the planet. He's kept in isolation and thrown joygirls and novacoke and allowed to play online games, and in exchange he turns out awesome IC and program code. That guy should have a connection of 1 or 0 but his skills should be top notch. Similarly a retired chief surgeon from Seattle General should have almost no contacts to speak of (especially in the shadow community, which is what contacts represent) but aught to be very competent.

Hence my feeling that an ideal system would have a 1-10 rating and have Loyalty/Competence/Connection but that would be a significant rebuild on the current system.

The LCC would not be too harsh on its own, and while I do agree with it largely, the only problem I'd have is that the Connection rating would likely have to be equal or less than the Competence; after all, if somebody has connections 6, then they'd need to be at least as good as a face, hacker, or smuggler. Perhaps it'd suit some people better if Connections and Loyalty had to be within certain steps of each other (similar to custom lifestyles)?

[Dakka Dakka]

Perhaps it'd suit some people better if Connections and Loyalty had to be within certain steps of each other (similar to custom lifestyles)?

This makes no sense IMHO. Why would all of your best friends be awesomely skilled and/or connected and everyone you barely know be shut in slackers? While a character will certainly try to chose his contacts that way, this surely isn't always the case.

[Rubic]

This makes no sense IMHO. Why would all of your best friends be awesomely skilled and/or connected and everyone you barely know be shut in slackers? While a character will certainly try to chose his contacts that way, this surely isn't always the case.

Most likely, due to Nepotism. People generally like to surround themselves with people they get along with. They also like to be on the good side of people who can and will get them stuff (cynical but not very wrong). More people will make the effort to get that Connection 6 contact to be as loyal as possible.

Just remember, there's a difference between covering for your ass when the cops run round and inviting you to dinner with a Great Dragon. That difference is how much you've proven you're not going to get yourself and your contact eaten.

[Dakka Dakka]

As I said a character will try to get the valuable contact's loyalty as high as possible, but this does not mean that it will be at that level at all times. The character may have just been introduced to Damien Knight or will have a very good friend/close relative who is a teenager with mad hacking skills but not much social pull.
Making a rule of connecting Connection and Loyalty just limits options IMHO without any gain.

[Cheops]

The benefit of connections is that when you rely on the Contact for certain rolls they get to roll their Ability + Skill + Connections as opposed to you doing it yourself and getting Ability + Skill. They also charge 5% of the price of the gear per point of skill.

So if you are playing Mr. Uncouth Street Sam and you need to get your own wares because the Face is busy then that Connections 1 Street Doc likely has better dice pools for getting you the gear. If however you are the Face or the Face can help you out you are always better off using the Face's own pools as opposed to using a contact (barring Connection 3+ Fixer/Johnson types). It depends on how fast you want the gear and what sort of markup you are willing to take (6 dice for a 30% markup or 1 die for 5%).

As to the actual skills of the contact that is up to GM discretion. There are no IG 4 Street Shamans listed in the contacts lists so that would be up to his discretion. A former DocWagon and a Street Doc are essentially the same in what sort of clinic they likely have (Augmentation) as well as skill level (they both use the Street Doc template). These are table negotiations.

Also don't neglect Loyalty. It is very powerful. Maybe your arms dealer can't get you the sniper rifle you need in time for the run (not enough connections + skill ) but he may be able to give you a "hot" rifle with scope + bullets that he wants to get rid of (Loyalty 2 if I remember correctly). Same thing with Street Docs patching you up after a run -- if they are loyal and they don't have to go too far out of their way they may patch you up for free. Check the Favours table in the book.

[Bearclaw]

You get what you pay for. 2 points for some one who will be alone in a room with you while you're unconcious is insane.
You don't get to say "he won't sell my parts to the organ leggers" because, as a loyalty 1 contact, he will. You want the loyalty 2 contact, who will only sell the really valuble parts to the organleggers, unless you're a very good customer. Or the loyalty 3 who will only sell your parts after you died.

Seriously, you don't get a good, trustworthy, underground doctor for 2 points. That sounds like at least 5 to me.

[LurkerOutThere]

You get what you pay for. 2 points for some one who will be alone in a room with you while you're unconcious is insane.
You don't get to say "he won't sell my parts to the organ leggers" because, as a loyalty 1 contact, he will. You want the loyalty 2 contact, who will only sell the really valuble parts to the organleggers, unless you're a very good customer. Or the loyalty 3 who will only sell your parts after you died.

Seriously, you don't get a good, trustworthy, underground doctor for 2 points. That sounds like at least 5 to me.

And i disagree, a contact shouldn't automaticly sell your organs to the leggers just because you used them for their basic function, that's not a good way to stay in business, or alive. The chance is there and honestly it's in your best interest to make sure your buddy is there with you when you go under the knife to make sure the doc behaves but just saying 1/1 street doc = ghoul chow is just silly. Of course saying that if there's reasons for your doc to want to sell you out, leveraged debts by the ghouls, a bounty on your head sure, but that sort of thing could potentially be a problem for any contact.

Bottom line I think most times in shadowrun you should be able to expect your contacts to be willing to exchange services for money or favors and as long as there's not a greater inducement they will want to keep you coming back to do so.

As a final thought, you should always bring a trustworthy buddy, preferably with some surgery knowledgesofts to any streetdoc appointment regardless of loyalty/skill level. It keeps the doc honest and ensures there's someone to haul you back to your place and put a vomit bowl by your bed after the work in case you react poorly to the new wares or anesthesia.

[Teulisch]

i think a 1 connection would be more like an EMT. he can patch a bullet wound so you dont bleed out and die, but hes not going to be able to do implant surgery. certainly not able to find you the ware you want. but lacking connection could also mean that theres a reason this guy dosent have a regular medical practice. an alcoholic doctor would be a good example of this, great when hes sober on rare occasions. theres usualy a reason why these guys have so much free time to talk to you.

from a mechanics standpoint in SR4A, loyalty is bonus dice to negotiate with. low loyalty really just means hes not going to cut you any slack on price, but at least he knows your not an undercover cop.

now, i could totally see a loyalty one contact being bribed to do a little extra work, like installing a backdoor or killswitch in your new ware....

[Redjack]

Some people are confusing loyalty as an aspect of connection. Connection is a measure of their ability to perform. Loyalty is a measure of their willingness to perform for you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And i disagree, a contact shouldn't automaticly sell your organs to the leggers just because you used them for their basic function, that's not a good way to stay in business, or alive. The chance is there and honestly it's in your best interest to make sure your buddy is there with you when you go under the knife to make sure the doc behaves but just saying 1/1 street doc = ghoul chow is just silly. Of course saying that if there's reasons for your doc to want to sell you out, leveraged debts by the ghouls, a bounty on your head sure, but that sort of thing could potentially be a problem for any contact.

Bottom line I think most times in shadowrun you should be able to expect your contacts to be willing to exchange services for money or favors and as long as there's not a greater inducement they will want to keep you coming back to do so.

As a final thought, you should always bring a trustworthy buddy, preferably with some surgery knowledgesofts to any streetdoc appointment regardless of loyalty/skill level. It keeps the doc honest and ensures there's someone to haul you back to your place and put a vomit bowl by your bed after the work in case you react poorly to the new wares or anesthesia.

This cannot be said enough... Well Said LurkerOutThere... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[baronspam]

Connection 1 Loyalty 1? That's "Doctor" Bob who flunked out of Veterinary school. He's constantly drunk and in debt to organleggers. You want your streetdoc to have a higher rating in both.

I disagree with this. Connection 1 means he doesn't have much in the way of a network. His skills are fine, but he can't get you elite cyberware, he doesn't hear much in the way or rumors, and he certianly isn't going to get you any drugs.

Loyalty 1 means its all business. You want bullet holes patched, he wants nuyen. As long as everyone can get what they want its a fine evening. If you're broke he slames the door in your face, he doesn't give credit, and you don't want to give him any critical information. He won't likely blab to just anyone, that would be bad for his business, but if he knows something important and someone leans on him, he doesn't really feel any need to watch out for you.

None of that means he is a lousy doc or a butcher. If he were he wouldn't have much of a client base. Professionals certainly wouldn't use him. Maybe the extreemly desperate or the extreemly poor, or the out and out crazy, of which there are many. But runners should be a level above street trash.

As to the original question as to how skilled the contact is, if I were the gm I would tell the player the more skilled the contact the more expensive his services. How skilled do you want him to be?

[mister__joshua]

It's nice to see this discussion got a bit of traction anyway. I've noticed there seems to be 2 groups developing, those that believe Connection should determine ability, and those that believe Connection and ability are seperate entities. Personally I'm in the second group, which is why I started the topic, but the first group's way of thinking does have its merits from a rules point of view. It's tidier and easier to handle. I just don't think it's right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

By rules and descriptions, connection and ability are separate entities. However, not having a point cost for ability means that either the player or the GM is in complete control over the ability of the contact which can either lead to abuse or frustration. It's odd that the player can describe how well connected the NPC is (something that is very useful for certain types of NPCs) and reflect that in the cost, but be unable to describe how talented and skilled the NPC is (something that is very useful for other types of NPCs) and that usefulness is not reflected in the cost.

The simplest house rule around the issue is group #2, where connection = "ability to get the job done". This expands connection to include tools/facilities/skills/etc. It could be described as a formula such as (6 + connection * 2) dice pool for items in the contact's primary sphere of influence and (connection * 2) for items in the contact's secondary sphere of influence. (Dr. Henry Rollings is great at patching up Johnny M's bodyguard, but not so good at getting the data out of Johnny M's head.)

Personal favorite example of contacts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4izq4PguFQs fast forward to 9:48

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am actually in the camp where the Player ands the GM discuss the Contact in question and come up with the Character together. That way there are very few surprises. There is still a bit of leeway on Stats, because the Player should not know exact stats, but there should be some sort of consensus of a range between the Player and the GM.

[Dakka Dakka]

I totally agree.

[Vuron]

As the contact will rarely be on runs with the PCs and thus really doesn't function as a cohort, I'm not sure that the contact really needs consensus as to the mechanical build of the the contact in question.

A high connection Fixer need not be Prime Runner in competency as most of his functionality based upon his Contact Rating + Charisma Rating. My personal thoughts are that anyone functioning as a Fixer is going to have a Etiquette Rating of 5+ with a specialization. Beyond that it's highly variable. They could be someone with all 1 physical attributes operating from a VR environment 24/7/365 or an ex-Prime Runner with a crazy amount of gear.

By a similar token a street doc or talismonger might not have a huge amount of connections within the community but might be personally incredibly skilled with extremely high dice pools in their specialty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As the contact will rarely be on runs with the PCs and thus really doesn't function as a cohort, I'm not sure that the contact really needs consensus as to the mechanical build of the the contact in question.

A high connection Fixer need not be Prime Runner in competency as most of his functionality based upon his Contact Rating + Charisma Rating. My personal thoughts are that anyone functioning as a Fixer is going to have a Etiquette Rating of 5+ with a specialization. Beyond that it's highly variable. They could be someone with all 1 physical attributes operating from a VR environment 24/7/365 or an ex-Prime Runner with a crazy amount of gear.

By a similar token a street doc or talismonger might not have a huge amount of connections within the community but might be personally incredibly skilled with extremely high dice pools in their specialty.

I was not necessarrily refering to Attributes when I said Stats. Contacts, Skills, Knowledges, and Personality all play a part in the stats of the Contact Character, and while the vast majority of that should be handled by the GM, the Player should have at least some say in those Contacts that he has paid for at Character Creation. Those that may come along during the campaign are people that they have interacted with, and they get what they get. They want a better contact than what they were given, then they need to go out and find one, and cultivate them.

There is absolutely no need for a Contact the be a Prime Runner unless that is the nature of the Contact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course, when you get one, it is very nice.

[CanRay]

"Wait, you dumped a dozen points into a single contact. Who the hell is worth 12 BP?" "FastJack. He was my Uncle that lived in the Computer while I was growing up." "... ... ... Can't argue that one."

[LurkerOutThere]

One of the biggest problems I see with linking connection and competence is connection becomes the be all skill and essentially gives you two mints in one. You get a high connection street doc, he's not only good at his job but can get you all sorts of fun toys.

Also I re-iterate that the best way to do things is have the GM and the player work out the expectations and nature of contacts ahead of time adds another good level to the storytelling.

[Redjack]

"Wait, you dumped a dozen points into a single contact. Who the hell is worth 12 BP?" "FastJack. He was my Uncle that lived in the Computer while I was growing up." "... ... ... Can't argue that one."

I tend to look crossly any contact with an overall cost over 8BP due to the effects they can have on game balance.

[CanRay]

I tend to look crossly any contact with an overall cost over 8BP due to the effects they can have on game balance.

Yes, but take into consideration that they're your contact... You're also THEIR contact.

And the higher the Connection, the harder the problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Honestly, to use my example before, if FastJack is calling you up for help, you know the drek has hit the fan!