[X] My Assistant

[Ascalaphus]

A way to weaken PCs isn't to take away their stuff, but make it clear in advance that they won't be able to take it with them. For example, they need to get into a high-security area that's too big to storm right through. In order to pass through it, they need to leave their Ares Alphas at home, and need something like those puzzle-pistols and plastic bullets instead. Time to get some concealable armor, too.

[LurkerOutThere]

Social events at secure locations are also great for this, gang meets or state dinners are great for giving your players a reasonable cause to drop some of their heavy gear.

[Rubic]

Idk, that sounded like the PCs were being a bit stupid. I mean me and my friends thought the same thing. Why didn't he just turn on the lightsaber.

As for the OP I think you have it right and wrong. Obvious things the character would notice should be pointed out to the players. How are they supposed to know otherwise? Your average person doesn't go around asking obvious questions because they're just that, obvious. So it's not unlikely that the player would assume you would mention a drastic change such as a different bouncer.

More on the Shadowrun topic. If you want to challenge your players you don't need to weaken their stuff. A better option would be taking them out of their element. The rigger who usually sits back has to be closer to the action because of jamming, the combat mage needs to be subtle, and the face has to infiltrate a gang by passing some very out of character initiations.

Those are probably better then the classic "background count" whether that means the normal definition which pertains to magic or a broader definition which means weakening any character of any type for whatever reason.

To quote Xykon, main antagonist in Order of the Stick from the book Start of Darkness, "In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed." He has a point. It's like DPS classes/builds in MMOs. Defense is hardly, if ever, permitted to stack to the degree that DPS does. The same goes for Shadowrun, where one of the founding principles is that it's easier to break something than to make, fix, or defend it.

If you don't remove the mage's ability to throw damage and reshape reality, then eventually he'll learn to do just that if for no other reason than "it works." The face will seduce/charm everything with a personality (and many things lacking one). The street sam will fall back to the age-old munchkinism "Gun as a skill" (see Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming for more details), and so on. The only certainty in removing them from their element is to make their element prohibitively difficult to access. Now, this tactic STILL will not always work; the magician overcasts, gains an epic degree of success on his spell, and an equally epic soak. But he had to gamble, he took a risk, heck, maybe he didn't make the soak as well but pulled off a hell of a trick on the opposition.

Ultimately the GM has the upper hand when it comes to bringing to bear a level of force against which no amount of tactics can succeed. But, barring that blatant abuse of power (and admission of failure that is the "GM Says So"*), there should be (and are) other methods of challenging characters and influencing story. If you're afraid to drop a background count in the cemetery behind the Evo manufacturing compound because it might hurt the magician's feelings, or if you cave in to the gun adept's threats to leave or ruin the game if you don't let him bring Willy and Pete, his favorite guns, into the restricted compound full of security, then how are you any better than somebody who just drops a buttload of corpsec down one hall to force the players to go down the other, empty hall?
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*It's roughly a Deus Ex Machina in RP format, and Deus Ex Machina is generally a sign of poor ability to plan a story through. It no doubt comes up in any game, though, but still should be used as sparingly as possible (imho). Like THOR shots**.
** On second thought, unlike THOR shots, which I would gladly use as much as possible, were I a player with the connections to pull it off. Then I'd go home and [-------------------------------REDACTED------------------------------------], and [REDACTED] with whipped cream.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

To quote Xykon, main antagonist in Order of the Stick from the book Start of Darkness, "In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed." He has a point. It's like DPS classes/builds in MMOs. Defense is hardly, if ever, permitted to stack to the degree that DPS does. The same goes for Shadowrun, where one of the founding principles is that it's easier to break something than to make, fix, or defend it.

That's a good old principle from REAL LIFE™. It's ALWAYS easier to break stuff.

If you don't remove the mage's ability to throw damage and reshape reality, then eventually he'll learn to do just that if for no other reason than "it works." The face will seduce/charm everything with a personality (and many things lacking one). The street sam will fall back to the age-old munchkinism "Gun as a skill" (see Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming for more details), and so on. The only certainty in removing them from their element is to make their element prohibitively difficult to access. Now, this tactic STILL will not always work; the magician overcasts, gains an epic degree of success on his spell, and an equally epic soak. But he had to gamble, he took a risk, heck, maybe he didn't make the soak as well but pulled off a hell of a trick on the opposition.

But... WHY? Ultimately, if you don't let people do their jobs, then you might as well not play with specialists: You ask your players to build generalists, and then you have no problems with big dice pools or even semi-competent characters (at least with 400BP).

You as a GM control all the paramters of the specific mission: You can make EVERYTHING hard to use, simply by tuning them. You don't want them to go in guns blazing? Make it a secret, no traces mission. You don't want the face to do his thing? Send them to China or another place where they don't know the language well enough. You don't want the mage to blast everyone? Well... don't make it a blasting mission. Certain utility spells are hard to get rid of, but then the easiest way would be to simply include them in the general difficulty of the mission. OR, make it so that there is a lot of astral security, so that even sneaking past is quite hard with active foci or spells.

And you tune for capabilties, too:
For instance, in D&D, above a certain level: Everyone must have a certain amount of attack and defense, must be able to see in darkness, must be able to fly, and must be able to deal with certain types of enemies (incorpeals, ethereal, etc.) And you tell them the requirements, and then stop worrying.

In SR, you simply include requirements that use all of your players capabilities, and don't let them bypass anything. They absolutely need a keycard from a certain guy, who has stacked defenses. They absolutely do need to get through an elevator shaft with no inside ladders, and the lift system (as the general security) is a straight rating 6 or more. There absolutely will be a strong barrier to pass through. And finally the opposition will need all the capabilities of your sam to deal with. And then everyone is happy, because they end up succeeding because their concepts worked, and without things getting too easy, because one method won the run.

Ultimately the GM has the upper hand when it comes to bringing to bear a level of force against which no amount of tactics can succeed. But, barring that blatant abuse of power (and admission of failure that is the "GM Says So"*), there should be (and are) other methods of challenging characters and influencing story. If you're afraid to drop a background count in the cemetery behind the Evo manufacturing compound because it might hurt the magician's feelings, or if you cave in to the gun adept's threats to leave or ruin the game if you don't let him bring Willy and Pete, his favorite guns, into the restricted compound full of security, then how are you any better than somebody who just drops a buttload of corpsec down one hall to force the players to go down the other, empty hall?

Localized debuffing is perfectly fine. If your players become more powerful you might have to just step things up a bit: Plan challenges in the way that you think they will be hard, and then add a little more, with the safeguard of not playing the opposition to their full capabilties if the players just don't get it.

[toturi]

If you're afraid to drop a background count in the cemetery behind the Evo manufacturing compound because it might hurt the magician's feelings, or if you cave in to the gun adept's threats to leave or ruin the game if you don't let him bring Willy and Pete, his favorite guns, into the restricted compound full of security, then how are you any better than somebody who just drops a buttload of corpsec down one hall to force the players to go down the other, empty hall?

Two words: Hell yes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Two words: Hell yes.

Huh? Does not compute... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

Localized debuffing is perfectly fine. If your players become more powerful you might have to just step things up a bit: Plan challenges in the way that you think they will be hard, and then add a little more, with the safeguard of not playing the opposition to their full capabilties if the players just don't get it.

This is kind of the point. I'm not going to raise the entire world's background count because the mage suddenly has 20 dice to cast with, but that does not mean the entire world will cave in to his will absolutely everywhere. The sniper can be taken out by a spirit unless he has anti-magic gear prepped. Limiters aren't about preventing a character from doing what he does well every time (to me anyways). It's about being able, when necessary or dramatic, to set the slider up or down as needed to prevent powerful characters from consistently reaching the point of power where no amount of tactics can succeed (and occasionally doing the same to their opposition as needed without seeming like a hack).

[James McMurray]

The sniper can be taken out by a spirit unless he has anti-magic gear prepped.

A sniper rifle with APDS is anti-spirit gear unless you typically use Force 8+ spirits. A building is often much better at limiting a sniper's effectiveness than a spirit will be, since the spirit is just going to take one or two simple actions to destroy but the wall will be granting armor, cover, and a blind fire penalty.

[HunterHerne]

A sniper rifle with APDS is anti-spirit gear unless you typically use Force 8+ spirits. A building is often much better at limiting a sniper's effectiveness than a spirit will be, since the spirit is just going to take one or two simple actions to destroy but the wall will be granting armor, cover, and a blind fire penalty.

Yes, but the spirit may get a surprise round, at least. And that could really hurt a sniper.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Yes, but the spirit may get a surprise round, at least. And that could really hurt a sniper.

Not if he's materializing near the sniper. Of course, if the spirit is smart, materializes behind an obstacle and then immediately closes into melee, it's usually over for the blind-sided sniper. However, I would tend to say that hiding well works for all kinds of detection, and a (projecting) mage needs to know where to look for the sniper, anyway. A smart sniper might be pretty much invisible to all kinds of detection, even from astral space, if he covers himself with enough stuff to mask his aura.

[HunterHerne]

Not if he's materializing near the sniper. Of course, if the spirit is smart, materializes behind an obstacle and then immediately closes into melee, it's usually over for the blind-sided sniper. However, I would tend to say that hiding well works for all kinds of detection, and a (projecting) mage needs to know where to look for the sniper, anyway. A smart sniper might be pretty much invisible to all kinds of detection, even from astral space, if he covers himself with enough stuff to mask his aura.

This is very true. I can't think of much anyone can do in the moment to disrupt a Sniper, baring a GM having his NPC's or spirits make an absurd test to find the direction the sniper fires from. Even then, a projecting mage or spirit would need to "see" the muzzle flash (if there was one) in the astral. Or wait until the sniper got up to relocate.

[toturi]

Huh? Does not compute... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh wait. I misread the question. I read it as "are you any better..." rather than "how are you any better..." My mistake.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh wait. I misread the question. I read it as "are you any better..." rather than "how are you any better..." My mistake.

No Worries... Knew it had to something simple like that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

This is very true. I can't think of much anyone can do in the moment to disrupt a Sniper, baring a GM having his NPC's or spirits make an absurd test to find the direction the sniper fires from. Even then, a projecting mage or spirit would need to "see" the muzzle flash (if there was one) in the astral. Or wait until the sniper got up to relocate.

I think getting the hell out of dodge works pretty well against a sniper - he can't shoot what he can't see.

That or making absurd perception checks. Once a sniper starts shooting its easier, anyway, since you can "specifically look for" the muzzle flashes to almost negate the penalty from his chameleon suit. On the astral those will be dulled, but that doesn't really matter, regular perception works alright - if you have enough dice.

(However, this might not be how it works, anyway: You should be detecting the gunfire, not the sniper himself. And that has a pretty easy base threshold, modified only by a silenced weapon, the visual conditions, and the possible distance between sniper and spotter. As a GM I would argue that detecting the flash still doesn't allow shooting back precisely, but dropping a spirit on him should work based on that info, or a grenade, for that matter. In the meantime, anybody within view will just have to trust his full-dodge pool.)

I'll maintain my point that it shouldn't be impossible to challenge ANY team, no matter how good they get, unless they get obscene at stealth and obfuscation. Because anybody who starts shooting and blasting automatically ends up attracting attention. And if street cops are getting their asses handed to them once or twice they'll certainly know who to call.

[Rubic]

There is also the fact that once a sniper is 'made,' then his job becomes exponentially more difficult. That spirit doesn't have to necessarily KILL the sniper, as long as it makes enough noise, distracts the sniper, or makes him waste a shot or two on it.

[Socinus]

I would encourage your players to do things outside of the main storyline that absorb resources. Start a club, buy a better lifestyle, pick up a hobby, just anything on the side that gives their character a little more impact in the world. Characters shouldn't sit at home playing videogames or cleaning their guns all day waiting for the next run.

I have a character who started and funded a group dedicated to protecting and relocating Technomancers who were in danger.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would encourage your players to do things outside of the main storyline that absorb resources. Start a club, buy a better lifestyle, pick up a hobby, just anything on the side that gives their character a little more impact in the world. Characters shouldn't sit at home playing videogames or cleaning their guns all day waiting for the next run.

I have a character who started and funded a group dedicated to protecting and relocating Technomancers who were in danger.

Yeah, Our technomancer is doing something similar, along with starting up a Drone Company for Household Drones. He is currently starting small, but he has huge ambitions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)