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> STDs: Sensors, Tacnets, and Dwarves
suoq
post Jun 8 2011, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 8 2011, 11:26 AM) *
And a Tacnet R4. Because someone I play with has done this.

I've heard rumors of a group of dwarves at cons who have some sort of bracelet sensor array that they use to meet their tacnet requirements.

Does anyone know what their load-out is, or if not, what do you use for a personal sensor array to meet your tacnet needs?
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Udoshi
post Jun 8 2011, 08:32 PM
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I would guess its a bracelet with a ton of Sensor RFID Tags, OR possibly a Handheld Sensor Package, of the various sensor package sizes.


I tend to use skinlinked glasses/goggles+earbuds for a tacnet.
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James McMurray
post Jun 8 2011, 08:45 PM
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I don't know what that particular group is using, but 8 sensors for Tac-Net 4 is really easy to get to. One bracelet (i.e. handheld sensor package) could have a camera with low-light, thermo, smartlink, and ultrasound; a microphone with a spatial recognizer; and a cyberware scanner. That's 8 sensor channels already.

But like Udoshi said, you can get the same from glasses and earbuds, plus you'll be personally using the enhancements without having to point your hand at what you're looking at.
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suoq
post Jun 8 2011, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 8 2011, 03:45 PM) *
I don't know what that particular group is using, but 8 sensors for Tac-Net 4 is really easy to get to. One bracelet (i.e. handheld sensor package) could have a camera with low-light, thermo, smartlink, and ultrasound; a microphone with a spatial recognizer; and a cyberware scanner. That's 8 sensor channels already.

I think I see where I have been misunderstanding things, so correct me if this is wrong:

A handheld sensor has a capacity of 3 (SR4A 334). That capacity can hold a camera (up to capacity 6 pg 332) , microphone (up to capacity 6 pg 332) , and radio signal scanner.

OK. On further reflection, I HOPE that's wrong, because that means an RFID tag (capacity 1) can hold a camera or microphone (capacity 6).
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Fortinbras
post Jun 9 2011, 01:34 AM
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I don't know if the tacnet bonus would off set the Notoriety penalty one would get for going on a Shadowrun wearing matching friendship bracelets.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 8 2011, 03:32 PM) *
I think I see where I have been misunderstanding things, so correct me if this is wrong:

A handheld sensor has a capacity of 3 (SR4A 334). That capacity can hold a camera (up to capacity 6 pg 332) , microphone (up to capacity 6 pg 332) , and radio signal scanner.

OK. On further reflection, I HOPE that's wrong, because that means an RFID tag (capacity 1) can hold a camera or microphone (capacity 6).



Well, Seeing as how a Microdrone only gets a Sensor Capacity of 1, with a Sensor Rating (of only 1). I would have a hard time believeing that an RFID, which is SMALLER, could have a higher rated Sensor than a Microdrone. Which would still be enough to support a Rating 1 Tacnet.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 03:11 AM
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It's in the rules already. RFIDs are limited to Rating 1 and they're really not intended for 'active' sensors in the first place. Things like ambient temp yes, cameras no. A handheld sensor is bigger than a bracelet (yes, maybe even those comically giant watches they're selling men these days). Micro cameras are also limited to Rating 1.
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2011, 10:11 PM) *
It's in the rules already. RFIDs are limited to micro, Rating 1 and they're really not intended for 'active' sensors in the first place. Things like ambient temp yes, cameras no. A handheld sensor is bigger than a bracelet (yes, maybe even those comically giant watches they're selling men these days).

So the RFID have a capacity of 1 that's limited to a capacity of 1 if I'm understanding this right.
The micro (size of a dime) have a capacity of 1 without the above limitation, so they can hold a capacity 6 camera. Is this correct?
And the handheld works as described above, 3 capacity each with their own capacity if applicable, correct?
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 03:32 AM
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No, micro cameras are also limited to 1.

As for the rest, sure. Wear more if you need more cap. Velcro to your chest.
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Udoshi
post Jun 9 2011, 03:35 AM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 8 2011, 09:16 PM) *
So the RFID have a capacity of 1 that's limited to a capacity of 1 if I'm understanding this right.
The micro (size of a dime) have a capacity of 1 without the above limitation, so they can hold a capacity 6 camera. Is this correct?
And the handheld works as described above, 3 capacity each with their own capacity if applicable, correct?


It is not correct. People are forgetting to quote their sensor tag rules.

Rating 1 sensors in tags only.

Since the rating of a camera or microphone determines how may accessories it may have, that also means 1 accessory.


Still. Thats 4 channels. (camera, thermo, mic, spatial recognizer)

I would suggest the handheld sensor package instead. Sadly, there isn't a price for it - i would assume that buying a relevant sensor lets you choose a package it may go in.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 03:52 AM
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Yeah, it's like how buying a Canon camera 'includes' the body.
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 12:34 PM
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I want to make sure what you're saying.
The Micro camera has a capacity limit of 1 (which you're using for thermo).
It also comes WITH a microphone (trid?) which also has it's OWN capacity of 1 (which you're using for special recognizer).
That gives 4 channels on the micro, correct?

Upgrading to the handheld size: If it has a camera with a capacity of 6, does that also include a microphone with it's own capacity of 6?
If not does the microphone (cap 6) need to be purchased separately and what's the capacity on the microphone of a capacity 6 camera?
If so, does the microphone take up no slots on the camera, one slot on the camera, or one slot on the handheld.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2011, 12:54 PM
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In My opinion, there is only a single Upgrade Slot in the Rating 1 Camera. You could use either Thermographic or Spatial Recognizer, as both take up a slot. This would give you 3 functional Sensor channels, not 4, as the Internal Microphone has no inherent slots of its own. The CAMERA has the Slot, which can be used for either a visual or aural upgrade. For a Rating 6 Camera, you have 6 Slots, but will end up with 7 Channels due to the Inherent Microphone already present.
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Emy
post Jun 9 2011, 12:55 PM
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whups. Accidentally posted on a friends computer. Correct reply is below.
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Udoshi
post Jun 9 2011, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 9 2011, 06:34 AM) *
I want to make sure what you're saying.
The Micro camera has a capacity limit of 1 (which you're using for thermo).
It also comes WITH a microphone (trid?) which also has it's OWN capacity of 1 (which you're using for special recognizer).
That gives 4 channels on the micro, correct?


You have it wrong.

Cameras have built in sound capabilities - thats it. Jack squad else. nada. To actually get sound accessories and a decent rating, buy a microphone.

I was using two sensor tags. One for the camera, one for the microphone. Kind of forgot to say it.

To reiterate: Camera Does Not Equal Free Microphone. Accessories sold seperately. Basically, what Tymeaus said.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 01:18 PM
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Sensor tags really aren't for that, anyway. Not that—as we mentioned—sensor packages cost anything. Just use handhelds.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 9 2011, 01:32 PM
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If i see the dwarves at Origins or Gencon i'll ask them. I'm not usuaully in the business of auditing sheets so it sounds plausable, really it's plausable all around it's just a matter of packaging and how nitpicky the GM wants to be about relevant sensor channels.
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 02:23 PM
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Ok. So, TJ says the camera comes with a mic. Udoshi says t doesn't. If it comes with the microphone the available slots can be used for audio OR visual mods.

Going further down the rabbit hole:
Smartguns come with guncams (SR4A 322 - more implied than rule since "guncam" as a term first appears in Arsenal)
Guncams are trideo (AR 33)
Trideo have microphones so that's at least 2 sensor channels on a smartgun.
Guncams can have visual enhancements (either unlimited according to RAW as far as I can find or up to the gun's capacity according to DaisyBox's character generator. Not sure what rule I haven't found that DaisyBox is using.)
I can't find anything saying that guncams can or cannot have audio enhancements, but I'm willing to go with can't.

So smartgun (2), biomonitor (1) , earbuds with spacial & audio enhancement (3) and goggles/glasses/contacts/cybereyes with smartlink (2 minimum) = 8 sensor channels minimum. Those lacking in above could pick up RFID microphones with spacial for 2 channels.
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James McMurray
post Jun 9 2011, 02:32 PM
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So, TJ says the camera comes with a mic. Udoshi says t doesn't. If it comes with the microphone the available slots can be used for audio OR visual mods.

Trideo cameras have sound recording capability. (SR4A p. 332)
Trideo cameras can be upgraded with visualenhancements (same page)

They can record sound, but their rudimentary microphones cannot be upgraded.

Smartguns come with guncams (SR4A 322 - more implied than rule since "guncam" as a term first appears in Arsenal)

You are inferring something that does not exist. Smartguns and guncams are different items.

Guncams are trideo (AR 33)

True, but they are not the trideo cameras from SR4A p. 332.

Guncams can have visual enhancements

Where did you find this? They have no listed capacity.

It looks like you are trying to apply logic to SR rules. That makes for great house rules, but quickly removes you from the RAW.
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 9 2011, 08:32 AM) *
You are inferring something that does not exist. Smartguns and guncams are different items.

...

Where did you find this? They have no listed capacity.

From AR. page 150
QUOTE
Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only): This modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems (pp. 323–324, SR4). It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system.

We know from SR4A that Smartguns have cameras and this pretty much says the camera in the smartgun is a guncam, although I'm sure someone could interpret this as meaning the gun needs a guncam and a smartgun both. I'm going with the whole "camera in smartgun is a guncam" interpretation.

This mod seems to be limited by the gun capacity instead of camera capacity as far as visual enhancements go. (Now I see why DaisyBox works the way it does. DUH.)

I apologize for appearing to apply logic to Shadowrun. Unfortunately, I don't know any better way to try and understand these rules than to apply logic and scenarios. (It appears this week I've been charged with 1) Not reading the rules, 2) applying logic to the rules, 3) Not being realistic for proposed homerules (because, unlike RAW, we have a standard for homerules), and 4) proposing a homerule that isn't RAW. )

As far as not being the trideo cameras from SR4A 332, I'm still assuming they have a microphone and therefore 2 channels for a tacnet unless you have some reason for thinking otherwise.
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Aria
post Jun 9 2011, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 9 2011, 04:32 AM) *
No, micro cameras are also limited to 1.

As for the rest, sure. Wear more if you need more cap. Velcro to your chest.

Can you point me in the direction of this rule please? I always thought you could have a rated camera on a microdrone...otherwise the chance of them actually seeing anything interesting (not blindingly obvious) is unlikely!?!

Thanks
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 04:19 PM
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Not necessarily microdrones, but micro cameras. It's in the core rules for cameras.

Of course, it *is* a reasonable conclusion that microdrones use microcameras, and that micro sensor packages do too (because microdrones have micro sensor packages). It's just not explicit, as usual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Both of the microdrones in the core book have Sensor 1, though the vehicle Sensor Rating rules are their own mess. There's a microdrone Arsenal with a Sensor 2.
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suoq
post Jun 9 2011, 05:56 PM
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Dug up based on this thread. Posted for clarification.
Micro Cameras SR4A 322
QUOTE
Camera: The most common sensor, cameras can capture still photos, video, or trideo (including sound). Cameras may also be upgraded with vision enhancements (p. 333). Micro versions are available at Rating 1 (Capacity 1) only.

RFID SR4A 329
QUOTE
Sensor Tags: These tags are equipped with single rating 1 sensor (Visual Sensors & Imaging Devices, p. 332; Audio Sensors, p. 333; and Sensors, p. 333) and are programmed to monitor a certain object/person/environment and respond to certain conditions. Sensor tags are used for diagnostic purposes in various devices, vehicle components, and cyberware, as well as to monitor temperature in food shipments, and many similar purposes.

Note sure a handheld is actually bigger than a bracelet (see comments above). All I can find is SR4A 333:
QUOTE
handheld sensors are easily carried in the palm; mounted sensors are lunchbox-sized
Interpret as you will.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 9 2011, 06:08 PM
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Yeah, I feel like 'palm-sized' means around 'a deck of cards', plus or minus a fair bit.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jun 9 2011, 06:56 PM
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Cameras get you sound, but you can't get any audio enhancements for it. My personal guess is that the writers just didn't think about audio enhancements when they mentioned cameras could get visual enhancement. Likewise, I assume a camera in a RFID tag or microsensor is a microcamera (otherwise, why bother bringing up microcameras). Now you could slap on a bunch of skinlinked RFID cameras and other sensors with 1 enhancement each all over yourself and meet the sensor requirements. If you halfway care about meeting the sensors channels, you can meet it pretty easily. Worst case, you just slap a handheld sensor or two onto your combat vest/pocket.

As for smartlinks, it's mentioned on SR4A p. 322 that it's a "small camera." Since the Shadowrun writers don't use consistent terminology, I think they mean a microcamera. It also explains how you can fit one into a holdout pistol (which don't catch me as having a ton of free room). This does mean that having a smartlink gets you 5 sensor channels by itself. The channels are sight (from camera), sound (from camera), laser range finder (comes with smartlink), smartlink itself, and 1 vision enhancement on the camera. It makes meeting the requirements easy as all heck, but they were easy anyways (see above).

Honestly, the problem I typically see with trying to reach a TacNet 4 is getting the 6 needed to run it. To that end, I devised a minidrone that is cheap, small, and counts towards a rating 4 tacnet. I call it the TacNet Buddy. You keep it on your combat vest and counts as a person on your tacnet.

TacNet Buddy Build:
[ Spoiler ]
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