[X] My Assistant

[Udoshi]

Can you point me in the direction of this rule please? I always thought you could have a rated camera on a microdrone...otherwise the chance of them actually seeing anything interesting (not blindingly obvious) is unlikely!?!

Thanks

You can have rated cameras on micro drones.

I think you are confusing a ton of similiarly worded lingo

MicroDRONE is not Micro Button Camera(explicitly counts as rating 1) or a sensor tag(explicitly holds a rating 1 sensor) but DOES have a 3 capacity Microdrone sensor array because it is a drone, which has no relation to a Micro or RFID sensor package (see table on 4a 334). If that helps.

So, TJ says the camera comes with a mic. Udoshi says t doesn't. If it comes with the microphone the available slots can be used for audio OR visual mods.

Trideo cameras have sound recording capability. (SR4A p. 332)
Trideo cameras can be upgraded with visualenhancements (same page)

They can record sound, but their rudimentary microphones cannot be upgraded.

This is the right of things. Trid cameras have sound, but are not Microphones, and don't use the rules for them. Thank you for the clarification.



Regarding Smartguns: Accessories vs Mods is a completely fucked up ballgame of inconsistent rules.

The Core Book Smartgun(332) says it has a "small camera" and that it can be equipped with vision enhancements.
Problems: The rating of the camera is not given, so you don't know how many enhancements it may take, unless you assume its 3 because thats its device rating, or you replace it with a better camera.
Problem 2: the core book internal smartlink was written before arsenal's Mod rules, and under basic rules, may still get 'free' vision enhancements.
The Arsenal Smartgun mod(153) says: "This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system." Thats it, and gives an outdated page refernce to 4th edition. So, clearly, it works as it used to, but now takes up a mod slot.
Then there's the arsenal Camera Upgrade mod(smartguns only) that says "this modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems. It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system."
Then there's Arsenal's poor guncam (33), which actually has no mention of taking vision enhancements, but I'm kind of ignoring that.

Two things to think about.
1) Since you can have both Accessories and Modifications, why would an Accessory be Better, or have different capabilities, than an Internal one.
2) In that case, why does the camera upgrade mod exist?

The reason for this inconsistency is actually Anniversary Edition: When smartlinks were written, cameras did not actually have ratings. If you check the master tables in the back of Arsenal, its still listed with its old stats.
Under the Old system, accessory limits/capacity did not exist. The only limit was availability and money.
Anniversary edition came along and introduced accessory limits to tone this down. (ultrasound was, in fact, changed -twice-, one in PDF 4a, and again in print, which confused the fuck out of dumpshock for a while. Ditto for Bows)
The rules for Smartlinks were never reconciled with this change. Thanks a million, catalyst.


That being said, the easiest way to incorporate all these rules into a single coherent thing is like this.
All Smartguns have a rating 3 camera, and can have the usual number of enhancements that allows.
if you want more, and have it as a Mod, the guncam upgrade takes over from there.
If you want to spend a ton of money and replace the camera with a new one, or just dodge the question of the cameras rating entirely, use arsenal's rules for changing a package (105)
Thats my advice at least.

Its kind of a broken system because catalyst never went back and gave ratings to all the things with built-in cameras so they could take advantage of the new accessory limitations.

[Udoshi]

So, TJ says the camera comes with a mic. Udoshi says t doesn't. If it comes with the microphone the available slots can be used for audio OR visual mods.

Trideo cameras have sound recording capability. (SR4A p. 332)
Trideo cameras can be upgraded with visualenhancements (same page)

They can record sound, but their rudimentary microphones cannot be upgraded.

This is the right of things. Trid cameras have sound, but are not Microphones, and don't use the rules for them. Thank you for the clarification.



Regarding Smartguns: Accessories vs Mods is a completely fucked up ballgame of inconsistent rules.

The Core Book Smartgun(332) says it has a "small camera" and that it can be equipped with vision enhancements.
Problems: The rating of the camera is not given, so you don't know how many enhancements it may take, unless you assume its 3 because thats its device rating, or you replace it with a better camera.
Problem 2: the core book internal smartlink was written before arsenal's Mod rules, and under basic rules, may still get 'free' vision enhancements.
The Arsenal Smartgun mod(153) says: "This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system." Thats it, and gives an outdated page refernce to 4th edition. So, clearly, it works as it used to, but now takes up a mod slot.
Then there's the arsenal Camera Upgrade mod(smartguns only) that says "this modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems. It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system."
Then there's Arsenal's poor guncam (33), which actually has no mention of taking vision enhancements, but I'm kind of ignoring that.

Two things to think about.
1) Since you can have both Accessories and Modifications, why would an Accessory be Better, or have different capabilities, than an Internal one.
2) In that case, why does the camera upgrade mod exist?

The reason for this inconsistency is actually Anniversary Edition: When smartlinks were written, cameras did not actually have ratings. If you check the master tables in the back of Arsenal, its still listed with its old stats.
Under the Old system, accessory limits/capacity did not exist. The only limit was availability and money.
Anniversary edition came along and introduced accessory limits to tone this down. (ultrasound was, in fact, changed -twice-, one in PDF 4a, and again in print, which confused the fuck out of dumpshock for a while. Ditto for Bows)
The rules for Smartlinks were never reconciled with this change. Thanks a million, catalyst.


That being said, the easiest way to incorporate all these rules into a single coherent thing is like this.
All Smartguns have a rating 3 camera, and can have the usual number of enhancements that allows.
if you want more, and have it as a Mod, the guncam upgrade takes over from there.
If you want to spend a ton of money and replace the camera with a new one, or just dodge the question of the cameras rating entirely, use arsenal's rules for changing a package (105)

[LurkerOutThere]

I don't know if the tacnet bonus would off set the Notoriety penalty one would get for going on a Shadowrun wearing matching friendship bracelets.

Also i think most shadowrunners are smarter then to invoke Murphy's wrath.

Murphy's Law: If it looks stupid and it works, it's not stupid.

[Fortinbras]

Wasn't that what the entirety of Attitude was about?

As for the capacity argument; if a camera takes up 1 capacity slot, but has a capacity of 6, couldn't you use one of those slots for another camera? Now you have an infinite amount of modifications!
That is how ridiculous the entirety of this whole thing sounds.

[suoq]

if a camera takes up 1 capacity slot, but has a capacity of 6, couldn't you use one of those slots for another camera?

NO, because the list of what can be used in those slots is specific, although slightly nonsensical.
The slots in, for example, a handheld sensor, can be used by sensors but not enhancements. The slots in the sensor itself can be used by enhancements based on the primary purpose of the item but not other sensors. For example, a camera comes with the ability to record sound, but for some odd reason cannot have sound enhancements in it's slots nor can it have a microphone in one of it's slots. The handheld device simply needs to contain it's own microphone. (Which, in the long run, works fine.)

It's no more confusing than "device rating" (SR4A 311) and "device rating" (SR4A 222).

[Aria]

TacNet Buddy Build:

[ Spoiler ]

Clockwork Owl 400Y (From Attitude, Replace with any other minidrones modded Improved Sensor Array Upgrade if you don't use that book)
-Camera 5 600Y [1]
-Low Light 100Y
-Thermo 100Y
-Radio Signal Scanner 6 150Y[1]
-Cyberware Scanner 5 370Y [1]
-Microphone 5 275Y [1]
-Spatial Recognizer 100Y
-Camera 5 500Y [1]
-UltraSound 1000Y

Total Price: 3595Y

Senses:
Sight
Hearing
Low Light
Thermo
Radio Signal Scanner
Cyberware Scanner
UltraSound
Spatial Recognizer

I think a slightly cheaper (non Attitude based version) might look like this - although please tell me if I've done something wrong!

[ Spoiler ]

Shiawise Kanmushi (Improved Sensor Array Upgrade)
+Camera [R:6] Low Light, Thermo, Vision Mag, Ultrasound +Radio Signal Scanner [R:6] +Motion Sensor [Senses: Sight, Hearing, Low Light, Thermo, Maginification, Ultrasound, Radio Signal Scanner, Motion]
Total 3200¥

[Hida Tsuzua]

I think a slightly cheaper (non Attitude based version) might look like this - although please tell me if I've done something wrong!

[ Spoiler ]

Shiawise Kanmushi (Improved Sensor Array Upgrade)
+Camera [R:6] Low Light, Thermo, Vision Mag, Ultrasound +Radio Signal Scanner [R:6] +Motion Sensor [Senses: Sight, Hearing, Low Light, Thermo, Maginification, Ultrasound, Radio Signal Scanner, Motion]
Total 3200¥

I have that being at 4100Y. More than my TacNet Buddy, but yours have the advantage of being a size category smaller. I never realized for some reason that vision magnification counts as a channel. I'm also not sure if you can put a normal camera on a minidrone either.

How I got the 4100Y

[ Spoiler ]

Kanmushi 1000 + Improved Sensor Array 1000 + Camera 6 600Y + Low-Light 100Y + Thermo 100Y + Vision Mag 100Y + Ultrasound 1000Y + Radio Signal Scanner 150Y + Motion 50Y = 4400Y

Playing around with some of the mods, I was able to reduce the price of my TacNet Buddy to 1775Y. With no item having an availability greater than 12, you should easily be able to buy a few as a starting character.

TacNet Buddy Cheap Edition

[ Spoiler ]

Clockwork Owl 400Y
-Camera 5 500Y [1]
-Low Light 100Y
-Thermo 100Y
-Vision Magification 100Y
-Radio Signal Scanner 6 150Y[1]
-Motion Sensor - 50Y [1]
-Microphone 5 275Y [1]
-Spatial Recognizer 100Y

Total Price: 1775Y

Senses:
Sight
Hearing
Low Light
Thermo
Magification
Radio Signal Scanner
Spatial Recognizer
Motion Sensor

Edit- Due to some weird keyboard bindings, this posted too soon.

You don't have to use the Clockwork Owl. I use it since you can save on the Improved Sensor Array. If you can fit another enhancement on the microphone without making the availability higher than 12, you can skip on the Improved Sensor Array entirely. The Bust-a-Move is the cheapest, but I can't blame you if you want to pay the extra 1000Y or so to get something respectable like a iBall or even more for a Fly Spy. The Fly Spy has the advantage of being able to fly so you don't have to carry the darn thing too.

[suoq]

I'm still not sure that a drone doesn't count as it's own member.

Unwired pg 125

Members may be characters running the tacsoft on their commlinks or drones running the software on their systems.

If you're running the centralized tacnet, well, I'm completely lost because I'm not sure HOW by RAW you slave anything to a slave. Hopefully it's in there somewhere and I missed it. So far I've gotten by the issue by ignoring it completely. It may be possible slave the drone to your commlink, slave the commlink to whatever is running the tacnet, and count the drone as part of your membership's sensors, but I'm not sure RAW or eve RAI supports it. (My personal opinion supports it, but that doesn't matter.)

Note that the flip side of this appears to be supported by RAW. (But don't flip it, it's cheesy...) If you have the required sensors AND you have a bunch of sensor drones, you can effectively run your own personal centralized tacnet, getting a nice big personal bonus. So 5 tiny silent drones with 8 sensor channels each can really be an assassin's best friends.

[Yerameyahu]

If those drones are spread out around the relevant area, then that's why the tacnet is intended for. If they're just sitting on your shoulder, then no.

[Hida Tsuzua]

If you're running the centralized tacnet, well, I'm completely lost because I'm not sure HOW by RAW you slave anything to a slave. Hopefully it's in there somewhere and I missed it. So far I've gotten by the issue by ignoring it completely.

My group and I have looked for anything for or against slaving to a slave. The best we could come up with was yes and all messages are funneled along to the ultimate master. The ultimate master can't be slaved to anything in the chain since that'll start a request loop for all requests and nothing would ever be executed. What you can do is make your master the Ultimate Boss of the Internet and that's what corporations do locally. This explains the common GM practice of having one master node for a whole building (which would be really hard to get enough subscription channels for otherwise) that the hacker has to hack to take over the building.

In addition, it makes you vulnerable to spoofing. Spoofing is also useful in combat. Rather than having to hack on the fly to dominate someone's smartgun over several turns, you can spoof it to eject the clip as a complex action. So we thought it all worked out for the better if you allow slaving of a slave.

There is the problem if everything is ultimately slaved to Jumped in Rigger Steve at Zurich Orbital Bank. Then really nothing is hackable, only spoofable. Since the SR Matrix rules run into that sort of problems already, it isn't too much of a difference. You can justify not doing it due to signal quality or whatever.

[suoq]

In addition, it makes you vulnerable to spoofing.

Unwired 55 -

One node, the slave, may be linked to another node, the master. In this setup, the master is given full admin access to the slave.

Unwired 99 -

Spoofing commands from a user with security or admin privileges is more difficult, just as is with hacking in and obtaining an account with such privileges. Apply a dice pool modifier to the hacker for the Opposed Test equal to –3 for spoofing security privileges or –6 for spoofing admin privileges.

So, the spoof is at -6 dice.

Pre-Unwired, spoofing was a lot easier. Post Unwired, Slamm-O! gets his butt kicked by Netcat in the "who can get the drone in the window" contest.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Pre-Unwired, spoofing was a lot easier. Post Unwired, Slamm-O! gets his butt kicked by Netcat in the "who can get the drone in the window" contest.

That's annoying. But since you target the slave and not the master, that makes it easier.

[Yerameyahu]

Easier in the sense that you take a -6 and it's exactly the same?

[LurkerOutThere]

Unless folks want to get into a really nitpicky rules debate shall we admit that the Matrix rules are like a highly delicate jello scultpure, it works as long as you don't poke it too hard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit Addendum: Also for what it's worth i might allow people to use this drone to satisfy the sensor requirements, I would not allow them to hang multiple drones off their body to satisfy the members requirements. The whole point of the more members part of the tactnet is the multiple angles and view points giving a greater strategic picture, hanging two drones off your chest sort of runs cross grained to that.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Easier in the sense that you take a -6 and it's exactly the same?

It's more that the -6 sucks, but at least you're going with the likely smaller dice pool of device (likely device rating 3). With Hacking 6 + Spoof 6 + PuSHeD 1 - Admin 6 (a value any hacker would have) versus a dice pool of 6, that's a 45% chance. Not great, but there's no penalty for failure (besides an IP). If you focus on spoofing you can still do okay. If you live in a world where everything is slaved, it's not bad to focus on it. If you're a technomancer, your pools can still be pretty nice even with -6.

I guess everything could have upgraded, but I see that less likely than everything having those value normally.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I dig. The master is expected to be the hardest hacking target, yeah. I thought you meant vs. spoofing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)