Magic Clarification, Astrally projecting casters and whose day can they ruin? Options

[Nebular]

It has been a long time since I've had to actually worry about GMing a game with astrally projecting magicians and what spells can affect people, so I'm looking for some clarification. I know that Physical spells can only affect physical creatures when the magician is also in his physical form, so that's easy. Mana-base spells are where I'm wondering if what we're doing is correct... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The magician in question has Death Touch and Control Thoughts and is astrally projecting. He's up against NPC Goon (mundane), and NPC Magician. If NPC Magician is also astrally projecting the player can affect him with Mana spells since they're both on the Astral. Can the player use either of his Mana spells to affect NPC Goon? The way the Mana spell description reads, it sounds as though they can affect any living creature regardless of if it is Awakened or Mundane since it has an aura that appears on the Astral Plane. So the player Magician would be able to safely tuck himself away in a hidey hole, astrally project, wander over to NPC Goon (after finding him), and use Control Thoughts to screw with him or Death Touch to deal damage to him without fear of repercussion from him?

[Surukai]

As long as you aren't dual natured you're safe. A mundane goon can not be targeted by a projecting magician at all. (Ghouls are dual natured and can safely be manabolted to death without them being able to do squat about it making them quite trivial enemies for a mage)

He can however still spawn doom-spirits that materialzie (hidden in a corner) And spam "Influence" on goons and brings chaos and massive headache for the GM.

[Nebular]

Ok, so in order for the player magician to affect NPC Goon with Mind Control (even though it's a Mana spell), he would need to be in his physical body and have LOS then, correct?

[Manunancy]

Nope - the mundane goon has only his aura on the astral plane and that's not enough of a presence to send a spell his way from the astral. You need an astral presence rather than the mere image that the aura is to cast upon. An analogy would be spotting something in a mirror - you can see it, but can't shoot it.

Unles you dust off the older edition's 'bridging' rules, where a dual-natured target could be used to channel an area of effect spell through to the material plane from the astral. The dual target becomes the center of the effect.

[Hida Tsuzua]

You have to be on the same plane as someone to affect them with a spell. While everyone has an aura on the astral plane, it's not enough to be considered "astral" for the purpose of spell targeting. My guess is that auras are a reflection of the living object and not the object itself or something.

If someone is astral perceiving or otherwise dual natured, they're considered on both planes at the same time. You can Death Touch or Control Thoughts or whatever on those targets no matter which plane you are hanging out at the time.

Now astral mages can still be nasty to dudes on the physical plane. Just summon a spirit and it can manifest and ruin people's day for you.

[Nebular]

Great. Thanks for the clarification everyone! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mantis]

The section on Astral Space in Street Magic (pg 112) has a pretty good description on the difference between an Aura and an Astral Form and how you can interact with either one.

[Teulisch]

i remember in the old days you could also drop your spell through an active bound Foci, as it has a presence on the astral plane. i think that still works, but i cant find the rule in SR4A (may be looking in the wrong place though).

[phlapjack77]

doesn't work in SR4/SR4A anymore - astral spells can't cross over into the physical, no matter what

[Thanee]

You can summon spirits and send them to the physical world. I think that wasn't possible in earlier editions, but not 100% sure on this.

It's just that, with Drain being physical on the Astral (IIRC), it can hurt a bit.

Bye
Thanee

[Makki]

It's just that, with Drain being physical on the Astral (IIRC

no, still Force dependent

[Thanee]

Hmm... guess that is a holdover from previous editions then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Mantis]

Yeah that's the worst part about having played all the editions. Rule overlap. I'm sure I can do this...I know I read the rule somewhere....flip, flip, flip, oh right. That was SR1/2/3. Damn. Magic is the worst for this as it has the most subtle changes. Just a slow but steady pull back on the magicians power.

[Bigity]

I miss the bridging rules personally (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But it was balanced by physical drain when casting while projected. I guess it's less to cover rules-wise to just rule it out altogether.

[Mantis]

I miss the bridging rules personally (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But it was balanced by physical drain when casting while projected. I guess it's less to cover rules-wise to just rule it out altogether.

Me too. One thing I've noticed between the this edition and previous ones though, is that characters tend to use more foci in this edition. When you were able to ground spells through active foci or magicians most of my players would steer clear of foci to avoid the risk. It also made some situations particularly easy, like taking out a sec team through their astrally asensing/projecting magician.
It was nice to have it as an option though. Nothing preventing you from house ruling it back in anyway