[X] My Assistant

[Fortinbras]

If you really want to know how often a Johnson screws over a runner, look at every Shadowrun adventure ever published, including Missions and count the number of runs where the Johnson screws over, or plans to screw over the runners. Compare that to the total number of missions, weigh by pay or importance if you wish, and voila!
You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over runners.

tl;dr,

TL;DR??? What, pray tell, was so long you couldn't be bothered to read, yet feel the need to disagree with?

[Yerameyahu]

… Wasn't he giving the TLDR version of his *own* post? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

… Wasn't he giving the TLDR version of his *own* post? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes he was, but someone apparently has problems with reading comprehension (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

If you really want to know how often a Johnson screws over a runner, look at every Shadowrun adventure ever published, including Missions and count the number of runs where the Johnson screws over, or plans to screw over the runners. Compare that to the total number of missions, weigh by pay or importance if you wish, and voila!
You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over runners.

Yeah, you gotta wonder about that. Maybe the writers all thought they were being "original" or "edgy" or "gritty"?

I think that it's perfectly natural for a Johnson to try to keep costs down, but actually screwing over the runners (instead of just trying to low-ball) should be unusual, if he expects to have a career as a Johnson instead of just this one case.

[Fortinbras]

Yes he was, but someone apparently has problems with reading comprehension (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I have a problem with asinine text speak. Use your words.

[suoq]

Compare that to the total number of missions, weigh by pay or importance if you wish, and voila! You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over runners.

No. You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over the runners in a published adventure. This says a lot more about published adventures than it does Johnsons. Your logic when combined with Season 3 also indicates it's normal for every NPC to know exactly where and when you're making a run and if you do them a favor while you're there, they'll give you "What's in the box". Granted, you don't know what's in the box and they refuse to tell you until you've turned over the MacGuffin so your reward could be a monofilament cheese slicer or a new Tata Hotspur.

Missions, Season 3 works that way. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone willing to defend, from anything other than a Missions perspective, Shadowrun working the way last season worked. Like the NAN, we simply stare in confusion and then work around it.

[Rubic]

The likelihood of a Johnson screwing you over is more based on the GM you're dealing with, more likely than not. That and if you're working off a high connection rating or not. If you and your Johnson get along well, then you're looking at a low chance for a double cross. Also, it's more about what the Johnson stands to gain or lose by screwing you over, too. Say the Johnson is a pro playing at being bad. His appearance, astral signature, 'link, DNA left behind, etc. will not conclusively lead back to him. At such a point, esp. with trusting runners, you'll find it's a matter of whim for the Johnson to play it honestly or not. I reiterate, Rule Zero: Do not get caught. If the Johnson can get the run done, frame somebody else for the screw-over, and keep all of the money for himself, what's stopping him besides a poorly defined and subjective moral stricture? Mostly what your GM will consider best for the story.

Personally, I don't have any plans to screw over players with an untraceable Johnson. When I choose to screw over my runners, I'll have planned failure into the Johnson's methods to let them get revenge, pay, or both.

[HunterHerne]

In the contest between Shadowrunners and everyone else, I think it's a mistake to think everyone else doesn't have the BPs that shadowrunners do.

Some have more, some have less, most have spent a good portion of their BPs on non-shadowrunning skills.

Somewhere out there there's a cook (Artistan 6 specialized in Orc Cuisine) who has ware over his torso, arms, etc, that allows hot grease to spash on him and he can keep on cooking. It'll do as armor in a pinch. He knows how to do things with a knife that your specialized street sam couldn't do without burning edge. His cybereyes contain IR thermometers accurate to a 10th of a degree so he knows exactly how hot every surface is. His left hand has a brulee torch wired and his control rig runs the kitchen. And while he's in that kitchen he has Home Ground advantage out the wazoo.

Sure, find him on the street and he's road pizza to your crew. But if you even think about using his kitchen as an exit strategy and you didn't recon this, you're going to find your way in Plan B really quickly.

Sure, you'll still turn him into road pizza when it's over, but he isn't some 300 point loser. He's just not a shadowrunner.

I have to agree with this very much. I had a bar owner NPC that gave a runner a real hard time. In the end, the runner left the place with his hands over his head and his gun on the floor. And that's how it should be if the players are acting like the world was built as their playground, and they can do anything they want.

[Fortinbras]

No. You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over the runners in a published adventure.

The likelihood of a Johnson screwing you over is more based on the GM you're dealing with

True.
The disagreement, as I understand it, was that some were saying that it is status quo for a Johnson to screw over runners and others saying that is not so. A disagreement about individuals' take on the universe.
That universe, however, has been mapped out in extensive detail by over a hundred books and twenty years of continuity.
My idea was to take that continuity and use it as a map for how the universe works using statistical sampling; flawed though that sampling is.

Your personal interpretation of Shadowrun is more than free to disagree with published material. As always, what happens on a run is entirely up to the GM(and that gets into Intermediate and Advanced game theory.)
But the argument, as I understood it, was over the intrinsic nature of the Sixth World as it exists as it's own entity, not as it exists within one's own interpretation. The statements were not "I think a Johnson would..." the statements were "In Shadowrun, a Johnson would..." implying the world has a set of rules which it follows. If that is so, then the best way to determine that is to take a look at what we know of the world through published material and base your interpretation on that rather than conjecture.

Personally, I think, much like in real life, a lot of corporate people suck at their jobs. A lot of Johnsons won't follow procedure or take every precaution for the same reason that people at my girlfriend's work aren't allowed a microwave because people kept putting metal in it. Yes, that person was a manager. Yes, the amount of money she makes is staggering.

[Glyph]

Johnsons will vary a lot - you can't have hard and fast rules for every Johnson. I think any first meet is going to involve some paranoia on both sides, though, even if it eventually works out into a more amicable, established relationship.

Of course, on the flip side, runners have to be careful not to get too chummy with their Johnson, or they might wind up actually working full-time for a corporation or syndicate, becoming company men/enforcers rather than shadowrunners (of course, for the more mercenary-minded runners, that might actually be a goal for them).

[Raiki]

The disagreement, as I understand it, was that some were saying that it is status quo for a Johnson to screw over runners and others saying that is not so.

"And by the way [shadowrunning]'s not about making money, it's about taking money. Destroying the status quo because the status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to...rule it."





~R~

[Mikado]

"And by the way [shadowrunning]'s not about making money, it's about taking money. Destroying the status quo because the status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to...rule it."

OK, I'll give you bonus points for the quote, Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog kicks ass.

[Raiki]

OK, I'll give you bonus points for the quote, Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog kicks ass.

That's because he has a PHD. In Horribleness.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mikado]

That's because he has a PHD. In Horribleness.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Is that the new catch phrase? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)


Yea... I see this degrading into a "lets quote the whole movie" scenario...

[Ascalaphus]

Seattle 2072 talks a bit about the trustworthiness of Johnsons;

It took some time to shake out a lot of the wrinkles early on.
Initially, I think what appealed to would-be Mr. Johnsons the most
was the anonymity and disposability of shadowrunners. Some of that
still applies today, but back then it was an almost virtual certainty that
an employer would look to tie up loose ends by making sure the job
was done and the ‘runners didn’t walk away from the meet alive. We
learned the hard way to take precautions, set up failsafes and “insur-
ance” and generally make it too expensive a proposition to kill off
runners, when you could be cultivating them instead.
>
Of course, this still happens all the time with newbies. Employers find hungry
young ‘runners, hire them for a job, and then gun them down at the meet where
they expect to get paid. The lessons Jack talks about have to get learned over
and over. The ones who manage it survive and get to the level where Johnsons
know better than to pull shit like that. It’s natural selection in the shadows.
> Riser

In other words, a lot of Johnsons nowadays look to the long term, and want reliable shadowrunners they can use again and again, but you still need to watch out for Johnsons out to "leave no loose ends".

The key to preventing such a "tidiness" Johnson from screwing you is to make it very clear to him that killing you will NOT tie up his loose ends; that everyone will know, that nobody will work for him in the future, and that he becomes too hot for his own boss to keep.

I guess the simplest way to do that is to just record the Johnson interview through your cybereyes... if the team gets screwed, his face will be all over the Matrix. Have dead-man's triggers, that release the information if you're no longer there to suppress it.

[sabs]

You want Mnemonic Enhancement, Linguist, and a good disguise skill for a face. If you're a cyber face, a skillwire isn't a bad idea..

[Glyph]

I guess the simplest way to do that is to just record the Johnson interview through your cybereyes... if the team gets screwed, his face will be all over the Matrix. Have dead-man's triggers, that release the information if you're no longer there to suppress it.

I agree with the general idea, but keep in mind that it will probably take more than that. The Johnson won't be wearing his real face to the meet, or if he is, a bit of outpatient biosculpting later can change it. Sometimes the best thing to do is to let your fixer know, both because the fixer is likely to know more details about the Johnson, and because if the Johnson betrayed you, your fixer is another loose end for him to tidy up.

[Ascalaphus]

I agree with the general idea, but keep in mind that it will probably take more than that. The Johnson won't be wearing his real face to the meet, or if he is, a bit of outpatient biosculpting later can change it. Sometimes the best thing to do is to let your fixer know, both because the fixer is likely to know more details about the Johnson, and because if the Johnson betrayed you, your fixer is another loose end for him to tidy up.

Good points.. the Fixer "system" does work to increase reliability for both parties, because both runners and Johnson would like to protect their reputation, and the Fixer is a sort of arbiter.

[suoq]

I guess the simplest way to do that is to just record the Johnson interview through your cybereyes... if the team gets screwed, his face will be all over the Matrix. Have dead-man's triggers, that release the information if you're no longer there to suppress it.

If I heard this at the table, this would be my first thought.

"Wow. The team has a access point they AND only they contact on a regular basis and they have to keep contacting it. Do they contact it physically or through the matrix? If they fail to contact it, there's no end of people who would pay to see the team dead. Are they begging for a TPK?"

I can't even find the upside to the team's plan. Either they told the Johnson and trashed their own rep and created an incentive for the Johnson to find this access point or they didn't tell the Johnson and not knowing about it, he has no additional reason not to screw them, but once he does screw them, he has even more reason to see them dead.

[Ascalaphus]

"Mr. Johnson. Just so no unfortunate mistakes get made: we have set up some insurances. If you screw us over, or try to dispose of us, you'll get in trouble too. No need to go into the details, but it'll be quite nasty. And we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident.
Now, as long as we all behave professionally and deal straight with each other, nothing untoward will happen. Do we understand each other?"

The threat of retaliation is useless if you don't make it. But someone who knows you can strike back will think twice before attacking. A team that doesn't use insurance is just begging to be disposed of.

There are hundreds of way you could implement such an insurance; it can be very subtle. Ideally, Johnson can't be certain he knows how it works.

[suoq]

Mr. Shadowrunner. If I didn't think this mission involved serious risks and didn't include the probability that the rest of your life becomes very interesting and very short, I wouldn't have hired you. I have cheaper and more loyal useful idiots to send on walks in the park. Now you are telling me that you have taken out "insurance" so that if your team screws up and gets yourself killed, my already complicated life becomes more complicated, simply because I have made the mistake of hiring your team to do a job for which I see you're clearly not qualified.

The offer is off the table. Now think about your"insurance policy" and consider the phrase "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" and pray that my complicated life doesn't become more complicated.

[KarmaInferno]

Most Johnsons of anyone but the most gutter level runners should be taking into account that the runners will have their own insurance.

Really, both parties should assume the other side will have protection of some sort and there should be no need to mention it. But even if it is brought up, It's not something that should be unusual or offensive. It's just being pragmatic. The Johnson will have insurance of his own why should he think the runners will not?

More important than the fact of it being mentioned is the manner of it being mentioned. There are discreet ways of emphasizing the point without being overly threatening.




-k

[Ascalaphus]

suoq: in that case the runners are really better off without that Johnson. He's either unreasonable or not in good faith;

A) He really thinks that anyone who trusts him without insurance is incompetent? Then he's an idiot.

B) He doesn't want the runners to have insurance - because he's got plans to dispose of them.

Notice that I didn't threaten "if the mission goes wrong, you're screwed", but something quite different: "if YOU screw us, we screw you back."



So, as a team, you're really better off without that kind of client.

[Nath]

Well, in my game, that's why fixers are there. They're more than a convenient mailbox.

If the runner believe there were screwed, they call their fixer. If the Johnson believe he was screwed, he call the fixer. the fixer will check what really happened. And he will already have the personal details and blackmailing material at hand for all side involved.

[suoq]

Most Johnsons of anyone but the most gutter level runners should be taking into account that the runners will have their own insurance.

Really, both parties should assume the other side will have protection of some sort and there should be no need to mention it. But even if it is brought up, It's not something that should be unusual or offensive. It's just being pragmatic. The Johnson will have insurance of his own why should he think the runners will not?

Agreed. My objection isn't the insurance. It's the nature of the insurance as stated above: "it'll certainly go off". I don't care if you have a magic circle who will investigate me and hunt me down if I actually did something (unless I'm planning to do something) but the thought that there's a mindless trigger that I have to hunt down and deal with if the team screws up makes this harder than it has to be.

More important than the fact of it being mentioned is the manner of it being mentioned. There are discreet ways of emphasizing the point without being overly threatening.

Again, agreed. The two of you already aren't friends. Being threatening is NOT going to help matters.