[X] My Assistant

[suoq]

A) He really thinks that anyone who trusts him without insurance is incompetent? Then he's an idiot.

Mr. Johnson deals with runners for a living. Darwin is hell on Mr. Johnsons. An idiot Mr. Johnson is a dead Johnson.

Of course he expects you to have insurance. The issue is that you have uncontrolled insurance AND you're threatening him. You are threatening a person who quite possibly has a collection of hit teams he has successfully employed in the past with some form of insurance that goes off and creates complications in his life if your team (not him) makes a mistake.

Notice that I didn't threaten "if the mission goes wrong, you're screwed", but something quite different: "if YOU screw us, we screw you back."

What you SAID was "we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident.". So no. What you effectively threatened was ""if the mission goes wrong, you're screwed". (Out of curiosity, can someone think of a non-suspicious way for Shadowrunners to get killed?)

I agree, Your team is better off without that kind of client. Your team needs to work with clients they can overtly threaten without repercussions. I'm fine with that. That may actually be a more lucrative way to do business.

[Nath]

Out of curiosity, can someone think of a non-suspicious way for Shadowrunners to get killed?

No, but I can certainly imagine how PC could react if a sleepy security guard working for Mr. Johnson's corporation and returning home after a double shift happened to smash into their car on the highway, or if the whole team succumbed to food poisoning after eating in a fast-food...

[suoq]

No, but I can certainly imagine how PC could react if a sleepy security guard working for Mr. Johnson's corporation and returning home after a double shift happened to smash into their car on the highway, or if the whole team succumbed to food poisoning after eating in a fast-food...

If Mr. Johnson, a man who negotiates with and employees shadowrunners and hit teams for a living, uses those techniques to solve a problem presented to him by a team of shadowrunners, then yes, he deserves a Darwin Award.

[Fortinbras]

Out of curiosity, can someone think of a non-suspicious way for Shadowrunners to get killed?

Lung cancer

[Nath]

No, but I can certainly imagine how PC could react if a sleepy security guard working for Mr. Johnson's corporation and returning home after a double shift happened to smash into their car on the highway, or if the whole team succumbed to food poisoning after eating in a fast-food...

If Mr. Johnson, a man who negotiates with and employees shadowrunners and hit teams for a living, uses those techniques to solve a problem presented to him by a team of shadowrunners, then yes, he deserves a Darwin Award.

My point: see, jumping on conclusions. Those are events that can happen to anybody. It doesn't have to be some plot. And it shouldn't trigger some MAD strategy from the runners.

[Ascalaphus]

Agreed. My objection isn't the insurance. It's the nature of the insurance as stated above: "it'll certainly go off". I don't care if you have a magic circle who will investigate me and hunt me down if I actually did something (unless I'm planning to do something) but the thought that there's a mindless trigger that I have to hunt down and deal with if the team screws up makes this harder than it has to be.

You're making assumptions here. Johnson was told there was insurance - not that it was mindless. The insurance could be anything. Don't put words in my mouth.

Johnson can ask if he can be sure the insurance won't go off by accident. But since we don't trust him, we won't disclose exactly how we do it. We'll assure him that it's reliable, and make it clear we're not bluffing.

Again, agreed. The two of you already aren't friends. Being threatening is NOT going to help matters.

It's not meant as a rude threat, but as a professional warning (the same thing, but done with good manners).

I don't think my point is getting across well (traditional internet problem); the right way to something to a Johnson depends on the kind of Johnson, the kind of character, the way the GM thinks those things should be run, and so forth. Your group's style of talking may be different than mine.

The point of the message is;
1) We (the PCs) are not stupid, and have insurance.
2) If you try to screw us, it'll go off; even if you succeed in killing us.
3) It's nothing personal, just business.

Mr. Johnson deals with runners for a living. Darwin is hell on Mr. Johnsons. An idiot Mr. Johnson is a dead Johnson.

Of course he expects you to have insurance. The issue is that you have uncontrolled insurance AND you're threatening him. You are threatening a person who quite possibly has a collection of hit teams he has successfully employed in the past with some form of insurance that goes off and creates complications in his life if your team (not him) makes a mistake.


What you SAID was "we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident.". So no. What you effectively threatened was ""if the mission goes wrong, you're screwed". (Out of curiosity, can someone think of a non-suspicious way for Shadowrunners to get killed?)

No, that's not what I said.

Johnson is most likely to betray you after the mission is done; before that he still needs you. So while you keep the insurance on standby before then just in case, you don't set it to "dead man's trigger" until the Job is done and it's time to collect payment/make the handover, because that's when Johnson will try to avoid paying or try to "tie up loose ends", preferably by surprise.

So if the mission goes sour and you all get killed inside, the insurance won't go off. But if snipers pick off the PCs at the rendezvous point, or if somehow LS knows exactly where to find "terrorist Toxic ghouls, shoot on sight", you betcha it'll go off.

I agree, Your team is better off without that kind of client. Your team needs to work with clients they can overtly threaten without repercussions. I'm fine with that. That may actually be a more lucrative way to do business.

There's no need to be condescending like that.

[Ascalaphus]

Lung cancer

Why didn't he get a new lung?

My point: see, jumping on conclusions. Those are events that can happen to anybody. It doesn't have to be some plot. And it shouldn't trigger some MAD strategy from the runners.

Eh. The chance of that happening by accident are so small. Occam's razor suggests blaming Johnson for any "accidents" that happen around payday. 99% of the time you'll be right.

[suoq]

You're making assumptions here. Johnson was told there was insurance - not that it was mindless. The insurance could be anything. Don't put words in my mouth.

The words from your mouth. Read what you actually said.

"Mr. Johnson. Just so no unfortunate mistakes get made: we have set up some insurances. If you screw us over, or try to dispose of us, you'll get in trouble too. No need to go into the details, but it'll be quite nasty. And we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident.
Now, as long as we all behave professionally and deal straight with each other, nothing untoward will happen. Do we understand each other?"

This is an issue with faces (and with characters who are, for whatever reason, acting like faces). If you say "X" then, while you're still going to roll dice should you want a specific outcome, that outcome will be based upon what you said, rather than the information you want your character to convey. Had you said something like "The face makes sure that the Johnson understands:
1) We (the PCs) are not stupid, and have insurance.
2) If you try to screw us, it'll go off; even if you succeed in killing us.
3) It's nothing personal, just business." you're likely to get a different result than "we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if" because the bolded quote and #2 have incredibly different meanings, even if you intended them to mean the same thing. By putting words in your character's mouth, the NPCs have to act on those words. The dice can still reflect delivery, pheromones, non-verbal communication, etc. so it's not like you're removed his dice pool by speaking in character.

I may be a jerk. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's clear to me now that you're expecting me to react to the message you intended to convey rather than react to the message you actually said, and that leaves me in a position of arguing with you because I listened to you. If you want to convey those three pieces of information to the NPC, that seems fine. If you want to actually have, as insurance, the policy you mention above in post 115 of this thread in a campaign I'm running then I'll bet my bottom dollar that at some point that insurance WILL go off while players still have characters alive and their lives will get very interesting. I have a hard time thinking I'm the only one here who sees that plan as an boobytrap the players have set on themselves.

Edit: The plan mentioned above

I guess the simplest way to do that is to just record the Johnson interview through your cybereyes... if the team gets screwed, his face will be all over the Matrix. Have dead-man's triggers, that release the information if you're no longer there to suppress it.

I'd be asking questions so I know exactly when that booby trap is going to go off, because when it does, it gets interesting.

[Fortinbras]

Why didn't he get a new lung?

Why didn't he get a new Ryumyo? ZING!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The words from your mouth. Read what you actually said.

...

Edit: The plan mentioned above
I'd be asking questions so I know exactly when that booby trap is going to go off, because when it does, it gets interesting.

Not to be an Ass here, but if you look a sentence or so earlier, he is pretty explicit what the initial circumstances are...

"Mr. Johnson. Just so no unfortunate mistakes get made: we have set up some insurances. If you screw us over, or try to dispose of us, you'll get in trouble too. No need to go into the details, but it'll be quite nasty. And we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident."

It seemed pretty clear to me anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

I saw that section, and that seemed acceptable, even possibly expected for the situation. Had he stopped speaking at "nasty", it would have seemed a perfectly normal low level threat.

It was the whole "we've set it up" line that created a big WTF moment in me because that line seems to indicate that they've created a situation where the NPC may suffer repercussions if things go bad in a line of work where things going bad is normal and predictable.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I saw that section, and that seemed acceptable, even possibly expected for the situation. Had he stopped speaking at "nasty", it would have seemed a perfectly normal low level threat.

It was the whole "we've set it up" line that created a big WTF moment in me because that line seems to indicate that they've created a situation where the NPC may suffer repercussions if things go bad in a line of work where things going bad is normal and predictable.

Makes Sense, I guess... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

I would appreciate it if I get to have the last word about what I meant when I said things.

Clearly we had some misinterpretation; when I say "we've set things up", that could mean either a data dump on the Matrix that posts to every newsgroup automatically if you don't log into your MiracleShooter account every day, or a cabal of mages that goes looking for you if you don't come around for the weekly poker game, because you warned them you're doing a job for someone you don't trust. I didn't want to get bogged down in the specifics, but I did make it clear what the triggering condition would be: Johnson screwing over the PCs.

But hey, if you set insurance against Johnson, then sooner or later it's going to go off. It wouldn't be fun if you put a lot of work in those things every mission, and they never go off. Even if you do everything right; just because that's the cinematic thing for the GM to make happen. Like the really completely unrelated accident that the players perceive as Johnson screwing them over, at which point they decide to take "revenge". Or, of course, when the GM decide this Johnson is a dick, and the players gleefully get to give him what they had coming for him.

But that's applying metagame genre-savvy to the situation; not something the PCs are aware of, only the players. The PCs can be perfectly convinced they've set up the insurance in a can't-possibly-go-wrong way.

[HunterHerne]

I would appreciate it if I get to have the last word about what I meant when I said things.

Clearly we had some misinterpretation; when I say "we've set things up", that could mean either a data dump on the Matrix that posts to every newsgroup automatically if you don't log into your MiracleShooter account every day, or a cabal of mages that goes looking for you if you don't come around for the weekly poker game, because you warned them you're doing a job for someone you don't trust. I didn't want to get bogged down in the specifics, but I did make it clear what the triggering condition would be: Johnson screwing over the PCs.

But hey, if you set insurance against Johnson, then sooner or later it's going to go off. It wouldn't be fun if you put a lot of work in those things every mission, and they never go off. Even if you do everything right; just because that's the cinematic thing for the GM to make happen. Like the really completely unrelated accident that the players perceive as Johnson screwing them over, at which point they decide to take "revenge". Or, of course, when the GM decide this Johnson is a dick, and the players gleefully get to give him what they had coming for him.

But that's applying metagame genre-savvy to the situation; not something the PCs are aware of, only the players. The PCs can be perfectly convinced they've set up the insurance in a can't-possibly-go-wrong way.

Perhaps, but methinks you just said too much in the original post. "True eloquence is in saying that which needs to be said and nothing more". If that was a negotiation, I might ask for an ettiquette test to catch your faux pas.

[Blade]

One of my campaign ended sooner than expected when the hacker filled his physical condition monitor and his biomonitor, thinking he was dead, published all the insurance (which covered all the runs they've made and nearly all the people they'd dealt with) everywhere it could in the city's grid.
The hacker wasn't actually dead but after publishing that it became a matter of hours.
It was fun.

[sabs]

My hacker records everything. He's got files on every one, and facial recognition, and all that good stuff.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My hacker records everything. He's got files on every one, and facial recognition, and all that good stuff.

Indeed... Nothing wrong with that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[suoq]

My hacker records everything. He's got files on every one, and facial recognition, and all that good stuff.

Just don't tell anyone, or else you'll find your commlink is some other team's MacGuffin.

Hmmm. I may have to flip that one around and write it up.

[sabs]

Yes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) he doesnt tell anyone. He makes a good face, because he's got files on everyone. So he totally remembers that you have 2 kids, one of which is having trouble in school, because of a bully. He has personnel files on the shadowrunners he's run with, on every contact, and Johnson he's ever interacted with, and every target.

And yes, that's a mcguffin waiting to be stolen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

The key ingredients to a good face.
Social Skills
Disguise
Linguistics
Information

It's not good enough to be socially adept, you have to be able to give the person a reason to trust you. You have to look like someone they trust, or speak their language, or have information about them.

Face/Hackers with decent disguise skills make excellent faces. They can walk into a building, pretending to be a janitor, or a secretary, or a security guard, get good legwork done. It's a nice combo.

[Rubic]

Another side of this discussion is that we now have 2 nice story hooks for runs: 1) Runners are screwing over the Johnson anyways, or over a misunderstanding, and the Johnson has to save face and protect himself, and 2) a fixer was tasked with being the trigger, and now he needs a forensic investigatory team to double check the loss of a particular group so he knows whether or not to drop the 'drama bomb.' Either or both could easily go into making a novel.

[phlapjack77]

And yes, that's a mcguffin waiting to be stolen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

what ?!?!? he doesn't have backups (datachips) stored in multiple places?!?

Hope it's not a hacker/face in any game I'm in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[sabs]

Fractal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) can neither confirm nor deny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And no, he doesn't have backups yet. Though right now it's high encrypted.

[Ascalaphus]

Backups don't help when someone wants the dirt exposed, only when someone tries to bury it.

[sabs]

Yeah, he doesn't want a copy of that.. anywhere but on his person. It's stored on a datachip slotted into his datajack.