[X] My Assistant

[Dez384]

A Face should decide how they want to play their character and then stick to it. A guy with global fame and a luxurious lifestyle isn't going to be an infiltrator. A face who dons personas and people can't quite remember the real them isn't going to draw unwanted attention to themselves.

A player just needs to remember that all faces aren't the same and not try to play his character in a way they weren't made to be played.

[Wakshaani]

In addition to pheremones being A) iilegal and B) easy to detect, quite a few Johnsons will keep a magician on hand to sweep for magicians and scoot them out as well, just in case of mind-reading, mind-controlling, and similar spells. This could well include Pornomancers.

Of course, you'll also have numerous Johnsons that'll only deal online, where none of that magic is worth a plug nickle.

As such, a good Face needs to be able to be an everyman. Yeah, it's important to pass for a suit when dealing with execs, a high society sort forhobnoberry with snobbery, but you also need to be able to drop into seedy bars and pass muster with the gangsters and convince the cops that you're a scared citizen and that the scary guys with guns went THAT-a-way.

As such, human, not Elf, is ideal, with magic and cyber kept to a bare minimum. Keep your charisma up, your willpower too, and concentrate on supporting the rest of the team ... backup gunslinger isn't good sinc ethere's a heavy investment in IPs, but skillwires are cheap for great bonuses for slipping into character roles and you can always manage some second-tier decking in a pinch.

[Dez384]

The ability to talk is useless if you can't do anything with it. A face's legitimacy comes from what he can do once you've spoken to someone. Can he slip someone drugs? Sabotage a vehicle? Hack nodes? Distract or entertain people? Restrain or immobilize people? Pick locks? (De)activate a bomb?

Talk is cheap if you don't have the skills to do something once you've talked.

[Christian Lafay]

The ability to talk is useless if you can't do anything with it. A face's legitimacy comes from what he can do once you've spoken to someone. Can he slip someone drugs? Sabotage a vehicle? Hack nodes? Distract or entertain people? Restrain or immobilize people? Pick locks? (De)activate a bomb?

Talk is cheap if you don't have the skills to do something once you've talked.

I would think that the talker would be the best person to slip someone a drug. Or lift someone's keys/pass. But I get your point.

[Glyph]

I'm not sure I agree with tailored pheromones being super-easy to detect - sure, you can detect that someone is emitting pheromones, but, um, so does everyone. Plus, running them that way would make them useless, and I wouldn't want to gimp mundanes of one of their dice pool boosters, and turn the game even more heavily towards adeptrun.

Personally, I don't see Johnsons as the type to get whiny at social skill boosters they probably run into fairly often (and are likely to use themselves). They are more likely to crack their knuckles, put in their nose plugs, and sit down to verbally slug it out. The only exception to that would be mind control spells, which I think any sane Johnson or runner would consider the equivalent of an attack.

I do agree that the best faces are the social chameleons with skills and contacts to support their social abilities. Entertainer/faces are fun, but not optimal despite their sky-high dice pools (except in campaigns where social skills equate mind control, where they make the flaws of such an approach even more glaringly obvious).

I wouldn't dismiss combat/face types out of hand, either. Wired reflexes are actually astoundingly cheap - wired reflexes: 1 is barely over 2 build points worth of resources (I consider 2 IP good for runners who want to be able to contribute to a fight; 3 IP is what I consider the minimum if you actually want it as a full-bore second specialty).

[suoq]

In addition to pheremones being A) iilegal and B) easy to detect, quite a few Johnsons will keep a magician on hand to sweep for magicians and scoot them out as well, just in case of mind-reading, mind-controlling, and similar spells. This could well include Pornomancers.

I want to make sure I understand this. The Johnson sends all your magic capable people out of the room and the non-awakened characters at your table choose to stay in the room with him and his mage? Is he allowing the characters to keep enough firepower to blow the Johnson and mage both to hell and back or are the characters staying in the room because they really are that trusting/desperate?

you also need to be able to drop into seedy bars and pass muster with the gangsters

No. I don't. Maybe you do, but that's not in my contract. I don't even own the type of clothing one would wear into a seedy bar.

As such, human, not Elf, is ideal, with magic and cyber kept to a bare minimum.

I'm sorry. Are we filling out a job application to be on your team? You've gone past telling people what you like to play and seem to be telling them that there's some sort of "one true face". That simply isn't so. People build a face they want to play at their table, other tables and other players be damned.

[EKBT81]

I'm sorry. Are we filling out a job application to be on your team? You've gone past telling people what you like to play and seem to be telling them that there's some sort of "one true face". That simply isn't so. People build a face they want to play at their table, other tables and other players be damned.

I concur entirely. What if the mission takes you into a non-human-friendly meta enclave, like Tarislar or the Ork Underground? I concur somewhat with eschewing ostentatious magic or cyber. But no single character is going to fit in perfectly everywhere. And IMHO a "face" in the broader sense of "socializer PC" doesn't necessarily need to be the perfect chameleon, either. What about an up-front negotiator, for example?

I think you could even go for an all-face group where every character specializes in social interaction with a certain milieu, so you'd have your streetwise face, white collar face, magic face and so on. Of course the other skill sets should be present as secondary abilities of the various characters.

[Makki]

I think you could even go for an all-face group where every character specializes in social interaction with a certain milieu, so you'd have your streetwise face, white collar face, magic face and so on. Of course the other skill sets should be present as secondary abilities of the various characters.

there were suggestions on this forum, to make Etiquette a Skill Group. Well, it would be hard to define...

[EKBT81]

there were suggestions on this forum, to make Etiquette a Skill Group. Well, it would be hard to define...

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. I once played in an SR3 group where the GM houseruled that you had to take Etiquette as a separate skill for each distinct group. That's the way it was in SR2, IIRC? Which sucked considerably if you wanted to play a character who was even marginally socially competent outside his own "subculture".

Im perfectly fine with a generalist Etiquette skill. I'd just use the social modifiers tables to encourage sending "the right face for the job".

[Dez384]

While it's nice to have a dedicated face, social skills are something that it doesn't hurt for to have everyone in the party to be able to do to some degree. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be throwing 20 dice, but unless your character is a mute, there will be talking at some point to someone. Doesn't hurt for the gunbunny to have a rank or two of intimidate, the mage to have a rank of con, so on and so forth.

[Wakshaani]

I want to make sure I understand this. The Johnson sends all your magic capable people out of the room and the non-awakened characters at your table choose to stay in the room with him and his mage? Is he allowing the characters to keep enough firepower to blow the Johnson and mage both to hell and back or are the characters staying in the room because they really are that trusting/desperate?

Depends. Most pulling 'astral security' are there to block attempts to cast things at the client (Mr Johnson) and to point out if there's an attempt to use magical abilities (adept abilities, for instance) to influence things. At that point, Johnson will likely either A) walk, or B) tell the group to send their mage out or else he'll walk.

No. I don't. Maybe you do, but that's not in my contract. I don't even own the type of clothing one would wear into a seedy bar.

Not he contract, but common for business opportunities. Can you pass for a janitor? A record company exec? Groupies? The more options you have in your bag of tricks, the more likely you are to get hired. If you only wear a suit and shades at all times, well, Johnson can hire a different group. No skin off his nose.

I'm sorry. Are we filling out a job application to be on your team? You've gone past telling people what you like to play and seem to be telling them that there's some sort of "one true face". That simply isn't so. People build a face they want to play at their table, other tables and other players be damned.

There's no "one true face"... I'm just pointing out (ironic, really) that the heavy-magic, phermone-dipping, Emotoy-using "Roll a ton of dice" guy isn't the only way to go. In some games, he works out fine, but, people should keep in mind that cyberware scanners are common, astral security is not uncommon, and pheremones come with a legality of F ... Same reason I don't suggest keeping a tag eraser in your pocket at all times. Racism and facism are both rampant in Shadowrun and Lone Star stops people for searches on a regular basis.

"And this matters why?"

Well, simple really ... if you're an Ork, jandering about with unregistered cyber or an unliscensed gun, in the 'good part of town', you can expect to get stopped and hassled by the Star. Maybe they'll just get you to move along, but they might also demand to see your SIN (You are broadcasting it, right? No? What do you have to hide?) and check your papers out. Running clean is much harder when a non-human race, simply becaus eyour chance of getting stopped goes up by at least an order of magnitude. (Mind you, this can flipside ... the non-Elf in Tir sticks out, as does the non-Ork in the Ork Underground, and so on. We're painting in broad strokes for now.)

At the end of teh day, the OP wanted suggestions and advice, and I gave mine, just like others did. Mine just happens to go in a different direction and in no way, shape, or form should be held up as gospel.

That pathway lies cluttered with the dead of "Pink Mohawk vs Black Trenchcoat" discussions, and I don't think anyone wants to break another one of those out, neh?

[Mäx]

Depends. Most pulling 'astral security' are there to block attempts to cast things at the client (Mr Johnson) and to point out if there's an attempt to use magical abilities (adept abilities, for instance) to influence things.

And they can tell that my adept face has improved social abilities and kinesics how exactly?

[suoq]

Most pulling 'astral security' are there to block attempts to cast things at the client (Mr Johnson) and to point out if there's an attempt to use magical abilities (adept abilities, for instance) to influence things. At that point, Johnson will likely either A) walk, or B) tell the group to send their mage out or else he'll walk.

We did not contact Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson contacted us. Therefore we are not there to kill Mr. Johnson, but we are aware of the possibility that Mr. Johnson is there to have us killed. Lots of people want to have us killed. If you're looking for amateurs, Mr. Johnson, then yes, please walk, and find someone else.

Can you pass for a janitor?

Nope. That's not what I do. I handle negotiations, management relations, and terminations. I don't mop floors.

Johnson can hire a different group. No skin off his nose.

And he's welcome to do that. In fact, if he needs people to mop shit off the bathroom floors, some names leap to mind.

if you're an Ork, jandering about with unregistered cyber or an unliscensed gun, in the 'good part of town', you can expect to get stopped and hassled by the Star.

Especiallly if you look like a janitor. Personally, I find the Star tend to be polite to someone who dresses appropriately, has his licenses in order, and is appropriately "grateful" to those who understand that I have appointments I don't wish to be late for. Because life has been good to me officer and I can afford to grateful to those looking forward to a well deserved retirement or paying for their children's education.

[Ascalaphus]

@suoq, why are/seem you so offended?

I think it's more than reasonable for Mr. Johnson to be upset or just walk away if people try to use magic to influence him. That's rather hostile; how would the players react if people did it to them?

I don't think sending mages/adepts out of the room is very normal. Actually, I think most mages will spend the meeting keeping close watch on the other side's mages, to see if they're trying anything funny. Casting spells of any kind is frowned upon; it's easy to notice spellcasting, much harder to know for certain that the spell wasn't hostile. When dealing with people you don't trust, assume any magic use is hostile.

Adept powers are a bit more subtle than spells, but Kinesics and Commanding Voice are noticeable. Kinesics works by enhanced body language; I think stuff like Empathy Software and vary body language analysis software could detect its use. Perhaps even really good conventional perceptiveness. Doesn't mean it has no effect, just that Johnson is aware you're using it.

Pheromones are slightly less troublesome, because unlike say, Control Thoughts and such, it just powers up the Face, rather than overwhelming a good Johnson immediately. It's still aggressive, but it's only a bonus, which the Johnson can match, or negate with some sort of breathing apparatus. Or just by sitting a long way from the Face.

I think pheromones have their uses: they're good for dealing with security guards, snooty waiters and seducing office clerks. They aren't really so good against "wise people" because those people watch out for them.

[phlapjack77]

there were suggestions on this forum, to make Etiquette a Skill Group. Well, it would be hard to define...

Im perfectly fine with a generalist Etiquette skill. I'd just use the social modifiers tables to encourage sending "the right face for the job".

Make Etiquette a Knowledge Skill, applicable when using other Social Skills...

A Face should decide how they want to play their character and then stick to it. A guy with global fame and a luxurious lifestyle isn't going to be an infiltrator. A face who dons personas and people can't quite remember the real them isn't going to draw unwanted attention to themselves.

A player just needs to remember that all faces aren't the same and not try to play his character in a way they weren't made to be played.

QFT-also applicable to every character, since SR doesn't have "classes"

[Glyph]

Kinesics is one of the more subtle adept powers, and it is also one that is continually "on", much like improved (skill) or improved reflexes or combat sense. It might be detected by a mage, or guessed at by a savvy observer, but I have a hard time imagining a Johnson walking out of a meet because the team's negotiator is an adept. I don't see things like astral perception, 'ware such as tailored pheromones, kinesics, or (assuming the GM allows it) empathy software being treated as anything other than a normal part of the game - and the Johnson is every bit as likely to use them as the PCs.

Commanding voice, on the other hand, is both useless for negotiations (it only makes someone obey a quick command with their next action), and about as blatantly obvious as drawing a gun. It falls into the category of using mind control spells, brandishing weapons, or making crude threats - it can not only end the negotiations, but escalate to violence.

[Makki]

Commanding voice, on the other hand, is both useless for negotiations (it only makes someone obey a quick command with their next action), and about as blatantly obvious as drawing a gun. It falls into the category of using mind control spells, brandishing weapons, or making crude threats - it can not only end the negotiations, but escalate to violence.

"I'm sorry Sir, I must have missed it. What's your name again?" Now the team knows the Johnson's real name. He's way too deep in to go home now.

The problem is, what will the GM do? Call it a night?

Can anyone give a reference, that passive Adept Powers are noticeable by any way?

[Wakshaani]

Without Masking, an adept's aura is clearly magical.

I *believe* that aura reading will get you more details than that (What type of magician, for example)... from there, we know that auras show when they're in use ... casting a spell 'glows', and the spell can be observed and noted. Passive spells, like quickened or focused spells, also give off a 'glow'. As such, I figure it's safe to extrapolate that the use of any magic creates a ripple that can be detected if observed and, possibly, identified.

Spell formula, and spell use, can be restricted or made illegal (Thus the legality codes for combat and manipulation spells), but there's nothing (yet) about teh legality of adept powers, only rules about using them in sports. With social adepts being a fairly new thing, I'd wager that the law hasn't caught up to them yet but will. Of course, that doesn't always matter to Shadowrunners, but.

At any rate, a little assensing should indicate that someone is an adept and, from there, they might or might not decide to negotiate with a different team member instead. Your Johnson May Vary and all that.

[Rubic]

I think it's important to note, not every Johnson will have access to every means of limiting your face's ability to do their job. Not every Johnson will have a pocket-mage for negotiation (especially if they're trying to HIRE a pocket-mage for negotiations). Not every Johnson will have an unhackable commlink (in fact, much of the fluff supports this statement). Not every single Johnson works for a AAA corp, or has a bottomless expense account to prepare for their meet with the runners. If your Johnson has every conceivable angle covered when the team goes in for the meet, then it's usually a sign that the runners should tell him to find somebody else, and walk.

If you don't at least have an equal option of exploiting the Johnson as much as he's exploiting you, then you're probably in over your head.

[Critias]

"I'm sorry Sir, I must have missed it. What's your name again?" Now the team knows the Johnson's real name. He's way too deep in to go home now.

The problem is, what will the GM do? Call it a night?

Can anyone give a reference, that passive Adept Powers are noticeable by any way?

Except that that isn't a command, and even if it were -- like was already mentioned -- busting out "TELL ME YOUR NAME" reinforced by magical power is likely to escalate a conversation into something quite a bit less pleasant.

[Mäx]

Now the team knows the Johnson's real name. He's way too deep in to go home now.

Meaning he kills the team and moves to the next team in his list, hoping they won't be totally retarded amateurs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

I really don't get this belligerent attitude towards Johnsons. It's like you're crying Foul if you can't easily abuse him. Consider his perspective:

You need people to do a Job. You need to trust these people enough to know that they'll do the Job for money, and keep quiet about it.

Now, when you meet with the people recommended to you, they try to manipulate you with illegal pheromones, adept powers, mind control spells, emotitoys, and they try to hack your commlink.

How would you feel about employing them?

[Blade]

Before we start, are you here to have sex with me? If you're not, please turn off your pheromones.

[Makki]

Without Masking, an adept's aura is clearly magical.
At any rate, a little assensing should indicate that someone is an adept and, from there, they might or might not decide to negotiate with a different team member instead. Your Johnson May Vary and all that.

Two hits on an Assensing Test reveal that he's an adept, which are hard to get, once he has Masking. But passive powers never leave a signature. At least I couldn't find it.

Meaning he kills the team and moves to the next team in his list, hoping they won't be totally retarded amateurs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If he has these kind of resources, he didn't need to hire them in the first place. Especially killing the team on the spot. I have never met a Johnson with this kind of backup at the meeting. I'm a shadowrunner, I would have noticed.

[Ascalaphus]

Killing a team on the spot is a bit extreme. I'm sure Johnson brought enough bodyguards to make it an even fight, though.

And unless he's desperate, he'll be looking for a team with a more reasonable negotiating style. The kind of "friends" that aren't worse than his nominal enemies.

---

I think it's a matter of setting style whether Pheromones will be acceptable at a Johnson meet; if they are, Johnson is probably using them too, and he's steering the conversation so he's making opposed checks against all the team members, not just the Face.

On the other hand, if Johnson isn't using Pheromones himself, he probably doesn't want the PCs to use them on him, so if he notices them, he might announce that negotiations will have to continue over a secure phone link instead.

This is why I don't really like Pheromones; they constrict your options as much as they give power. It's an illegal, aggressive item that you can't help but reveal to those with the (fairly available) means to detect them.

In general, bioware is only lightly restricted, and hard to spot. Neither of those is true for Pheromones - they're embarrassing, and that's not good for a Face.