[X] My Assistant

[Patrick Goodman]

Must...keep...mouth...shut....

[Mäx]

- Actually, the HK Urban Combat and the HK MP7 are one and the same weapon. Pegasus gave CGL all their added weapons for Arsenal. They should be lying somewhere on Jason's HDD. If they are gone, just send an email to Tigger to get a new file. I'm sure he still has it. So much for international coopertation, I guess. Research? Seems not a high priority at CGL.

What the frack are you talking about, seriously could we maybe get a clarification to this.
MP 7 is a Vintage gun from this new realase and Urban Combat is from Arsenal, only think same about them is that their both SMG:s.

Rules issues:
- Smartlink systems never, ever used fiberoptic cables since SR1 - and there it was a dated option. The induction pad was absolute standard ever since SR2. Declaring a smartlink of the 2060 requires a fiberoptic cable is a mind-bogglingly stupid retcon AND shows inability to do research.

If your prefferring to what is said on the Predator 2 page, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension because it really doesn't say what you seem to think it does.
Only think said in it is that it needs a physical connection, witch the induction pad was too IIRC.
Unsuprisingly the book just gives a price for smarlink fiber optic cable, as full rules for old school style induction pad ware is little out of the cope of this book.

- The Ares Canadian Sportster is ridiculously underpowered compared to all other hunting rifles in Arsenal or the Core Book. Research!

From reading the jackpoint comment im pretty darn sure that it's quite intentional.

[hobgoblin]

Iirc, one could save on cost (both nuyen and essence) in earlier editions (when the modular smartlink implant was introduced) by forgoing the induction pads and going fiber optic for the connection.

[CanRay]

- The Ares Canadian Sportster is ridiculously underpowered compared to all other hunting rifles in Arsenal or the Core Book. Research!

> Picador, why did you put this rifle in the download? It’s a hunting rifle at best. Drek, the version you have pictured here is the small-caliber version. At least the big game version can substitute for a sniper rifle in a pinch.

It's a small game rifle, for varmint hunting.

In other words, Pixie Hunting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And Devil Rats.

[BookWyrm]

Already added to my Wishlist on DriveThruRPG. Man, I have GOT to get some cash together, those PDFs are piling up.....

[Patrick Goodman]

Oh, screw keeping my mouth shut...it never works out for me anyway.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a gun guy. I've been a Shadowrun player since the beginning, though, and I've picked up a few things. I'm also one of the proofers on this product, and it's the most work I've done as a proofer for an SR product since I came on board in that capacity. All I'll say on most of this is, "You should have seen it before I got a hold of it." You're welcome.

One thing that jumps out at me, though, as a gun enthusiast - a number of the artwork pieces look nice but are clearly done by someone with limited knowledge of firearm mechanics. It's not a major issue, but the pedantic inner voice in my head is screaming "guns do not work that way!"

Maybe, maybe not, but the art for the new guns came about because a lot of weapon props were acquired, and art prepared from those props. I don't know how functional those prop weapons were, but I know that the art was taken from an actual physical thingie.

They did finally establish what mechanics to use with Battle Rifles. Sporting Rifle ranges, takes Assault Rifle mods, uses Automatics skill.

This wasn't meant as back-door errata, really, but it was insisted upon by a couple of the proofers. Strangely enough, I was not one of them, but then (as I said) I'm not really a gun guy. My characters use anything bigger than a heavy pistol and I'm kind of at sea myself.

OK, gone through it. Yes, the new firearms are, "Oh dear $Deity, firearms don't work that way!", but the classic weapons are nicely drawn out (Some nice old friends as well!). And, *GASP*, are those CALIBERS I see? Yes, yes they are! Who'd have thunk it?

There were mixed feelings about the calibers, but since it's never been that big an issue, we didn't worry about it too much. I didn't, anyway.

As said before, the new weapons were scanned in, as I understand it, from actual physical things. For the most part, they didn't set me off, but I'm not the target audience for that portion of the book.

Also, I'd say the name "Ogre Hammer" was chosen but because it embodies some of the supposed qualities of its namesake. Same reason why military hardware IRL is named "Apache" or "Leopard" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That one went through some name changes along the way.

To be fair, there was old art that had the caliber of weapons detailed as well. But I dn't really mind it either way. Just, then I'd like to see the editor coordinate art and writing so that light pistols and heavy pistols don't both shoot S&W .40 ... of course, that requires an editor working on this.

I take some umbrage at this last bit. I wasn't the editor/developer, but I did an assload of work on this book, and got a lot of improvements made to the final product (and I can produce witnesses if needed).

Is it going to be perfect? Fuck, no. But as one of the people who worked on this...for FREE, mind you, taking time away from my kids that I'll never fucking get back to make this a better product for you lot...I can tell you that work and research WAS FUCKING DONE. Sometimes I got overruled, sometimes I missed some things, but I've had about enough of being told that we're not doing enough.

For the things that got past us, I'm sorry. But for the product you've got, that's unbelievably better than what was originally put together? You're fuckin' welcome.

My words are my own in this; I'm speaking solely for myself and not for CGL here in this post. The official word, if any, on this product will come from Jason or someone acting on behalf of the company.

[Mäx]

This wasn't meant as back-door errata, really, but it was insisted upon by a couple of the proofers.

It's pretty good that it was added(bonus point to those proofers), as it would be stupid to expect that everyone who want's this has WAR, so if it wasn't added some people would have no idea how battle rifles work.

[hobgoblin]

Well it can be argued to be a back door errata mostly because War did not specify the skill of battle rifles...

[CanRay]

This wasn't meant as back-door errata, really, but it was insisted upon by a couple of the proofers. Strangely enough, I was not one of them, but then (as I said) I'm not really a gun guy. My characters use anything bigger than a heavy pistol and I'm kind of at sea myself.

I take some umbrage at this last bit. I wasn't the editor/developer, but I did an assload of work on this book, and got a lot of improvements made to the final product (and I can produce witnesses if needed).

Is it going to be perfect? Fuck, no. But as one of the people who worked on this...for FREE, mind you, taking time away from my kids that I'll never fucking get back to make this a better product for you lot...I can tell you that work and research WAS FUCKING DONE. Sometimes I got overruled, sometimes I missed some things, but I've had about enough of being told that we're not doing enough.

For the things that got past us, I'm sorry. But for the product you've got, that's unbelievably better than what was originally put together? You're fuckin' welcome.

Well, as one of the people chipping away and pouring salt on those wounds, thank you.

[Critias]

It's pretty good that it was added(bonus point to those proofers), as it would be stupid to expect that everyone who want's this has WAR, so if it wasn't added some people would have no idea how battle rifles work.

It just made sense to me to use our latest "gun porn" book as a handy place to clarify a previous gun ruling question. Some folks see it as a reason to bitch about backdoor errata, but I'd rather have people bitch about backdoor errata than continue to not be able to use a whole class of weapons. Damned if you do share the information, damned if you don't, apparently.

[Patrick Goodman]

Is THAT the wrapup of the nameless poster plot? I sure hope not. It seems like it, though. Pity, this was just starting to get interesting. Who, why, when? Those questions will forever remain unanswered. That's a wholly unsatisfying way to wrap this up.

Nope. Nameless is still around.

This made me laugh, considering the hacking rules - sacrifice any security for downing friendly fire a peg. Besides, you can run an image link/gait analysis program on your internal smartlink and save gait/image profiles of friendlies, so your safety kicks in when pointing the gun at them (SR1 through 3 smartlinks had that as a standard feature, so it's not rocket science). Same effect and your unit is not instantly compromised.

While they were not had on this particular issue, words about older smartlinks and the tech involved were exchanged. Many fixes were implemented. That I missed this particular issue doesn't much surprise me, for some reason, but it is a little disappointing on a personal level. C'est la guerre, I suppose.

Not gonna get into issues of authorial voice. Still got a bad taste in my mouth from that one.

- They used the MAC-10 in 1900? Errr ...no. Neither were action movies very prolific back then. Didn't you mean the 1990s?

How'd I miss that one?

- Whoever wrote "Chinese Communist Regime" both again introduces entirely unwelcome politcal commentary and totally omits that the PRC isn't dead, but lives on in Henan, for better or worse. Research failure and tea party meet for a rather unpleasant mix here.

I'm kinda responsible for that one, since it originally just said "Communist regime" without specifying which one.

- Ogre Hammer? Since when is Ares Human Nation Central (for interested authors: That's actually GENOM of Switzerland)? Ares having a strong enough racist subculture to justify calling a weapon Ogre Hammer is totally new, and should really, really infuriate the pro-Meta lobby that seemed extremly strong in the setting up to this publication, what with civil rights for everything that can spell it's name and all. Totally inconceivable, but another expression of the general, rather detestable tone of this publication.

Ogre's don't use hammers? How is it automatically racist to call something Ogre Hammer? Never mind, don't bother, we'll never agree on this issue.

- Smartlink systems never, ever used fiberoptic cables since SR1 - and there it was a dated option. The induction pad was absolute standard ever since SR2. Declaring a smartlink of the 2060 requires a fiberoptic cable is a mind-bogglingly stupid retcon AND shows inability to do research.

I had a LONG talk about this one with several people.

The final text says it needs a physical connection...which can be accomplished by fiber-optic tether, or a skinlink, as specified in the Vintage quality. Induction pad falls into that category.

Once again, you're welcome.

- The Ares Canadian Sportster is ridiculously underpowered compared to all other hunting rifles in Arsenal or the Core Book. Research!

As the text implied, that was deliberate.

Once again, speaking on my own behalf and not that of CGL.

[hobgoblin]

Well there are some on this forum that is here specifically to blame Catalyst for anything, and they seemed to multiply once Catalyst hit a economic snag and had to get new content for parts of some books because of existing authors pulling their contributions. Basically, i has taken on the ugly rhetoric of US politics.

[hermit]

It just made sense to me to use our latest "gun porn" book as a handy place to clarify a previous gun ruling question. Some folks see it as a reason to bitch about backdoor errata, but I'd rather have people bitch about backdoor errata than continue to not be able to use a whole class of weapons. Damned if you do share the information, damned if you don't, apparently.

Pretty much every other gaming company releases errata for free, snce essentially they're fixing a flawed product they sold already. The pissedness comes from the feeling that CGL expects to be paid to finally grace us with working proucts. Forgive me if that doesn't exactly thrill me. Actually, it should be possible to fix all these issues with a few post-publishing editing; both battleshop and DriveThru support such a function. But that won't happen, will it? (Side note: not directed at you, Patrick).

How'd I miss that one?

Tiredness? Happens to me too when I write/edit long assignments.

While they were not had on this particular issue, words about older smartlinks and the tech involved were exchanged. Many fixes were implemented. That I missed this particular issue doesn't much surprise me, for some reason, but it is a little disappointing on a personal level. C'est la guerre, I suppose.

It happens, I guess. Ideally it should not have had to be corrected, and it would certainly be possible to have less that is so bad it needs to be rewritten.

I had a LONG talk about this one with several people.

The final text says it needs a physical connection...which can be accomplished by fiber-optic tether, or a skinlink, as specified in the Vintage quality. Induction pad falls into that category.

Once again, you're welcome.

Okay, but there simply is no need nor way to do this in SR2 (it was a vintage option in SR1). It is possible in SR3 - buy smartlink components except induction pad, then use a datajack instead and router it to the components (it's its own router), but that doesn't gain you anything but style and harsher essence loss. But yeah, it says skinlink in Incompatible. Withdrawn to a degree (and btw, I'm of the opinion that it's the authors who ought to do most research, not the proofers).

Ogre's don't use hammers? How is it automatically racist to call something Ogre Hammer? Never mind, don't bother, we'll never agree on this issue.

And if it was called Dragonslayer you'd say dragons do slay a lot, too?

As the text implied, that was deliberate.

Okay, fine. I don't really get why this hunting weapon is so much easier to justify than larger-caliber ones in a world where man-eating 3 meter high horned bears with magical powers are something you are fairly likely to come across when hunting, though.

I'm kinda responsible for that one, since it originally just said "Communist regime" without specifying which one.

That's even worse, I agree. But why 'communist regime'? It's not like the state has no name.

I can tell you that work and research WAS FUCKING DONE. Sometimes I got overruled, sometimes I missed some things, but I've had about enough of being told that we're not doing enough.

And yet, the product isn't as good as it could have been. Take that as a personal insult all you want, but it doesn't take much to find out that smartlink in SR3 did not rely on fibreglass cables, or that the Ares Predators had certain ammo capacities. It's not like these are references to obscure books from way back. There, research clearly was not done. Was it an even worse product before? Maybe. Probably, even. Is it the best product it could have been? Probably not. Is it your personal fault? I don't know, and to be quite honest I don't really care. It wasn't done, it's work not done properly, and since I paid money for a flawed product I will point out where I think it has a serious quality problem.

For the things that got past us, I'm sorry. But for the product you've got, that's unbelievably better than what was originally put together? You're fuckin' welcome.

So you expect me ( 'us') to praise you for what? That this product is just only as flawed as it is? Do you expect us to just assume this can't be done better (hint: it certainly can; even the last few CGL releases were) and give you cheery, but undeserved, praise to not offend you? Then you expect too much. Sorry you didn't get paid for this work you did. But in essence, writing the book in a presentable manner isn't what you are supposed to do anyway. It'S only 1 ct/word but usually you do get paid for that.

[Critias]

There's a difference between saying "the editing could have been better" and "the editing didn't happen, obviously no one cares." In the face of someone who was heavily involved in the proofing for this book -- I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Patrick sent two dozen emails with corrections -- and who's checking onto the thread, at least in part, to just apologize for errors he missed...I can understand why Patrick's a little ticked. The guy's apologizing for the fuck-ups that made it through (and making it clear that he is, at least in part, to blame), and he's just getting criticized more because he drew attention to himself. If you can't empathize with that enough to, at the very least, understand where he's coming from, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, obviously you've got a right to be unhappy with a product, but those who worked pretty hard on the product also have a right to not be insulted square to their face about their contributions to it...or, at the least, have the same right to be "unhappy" about it back at'cha.

[Udoshi]

Well, as one of the people chipping away and pouring salt on those wounds, thank you.

Agreed 100%.

Patrick's been pretty much fantastic when he shows up on these boards to share his insight. I -still- use the stats from the 'infected heights and weights' that got cut a while ago.

For what its worth, thanks for chipping in your 2 yen.

[hermit]

There's a difference between saying "the editing could have been better" and "the editing didn't happen, obviously no one cares." In the face of someone who was heavily involved in the proofing for this book -- I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Patrick sent two dozen emails with corrections -- and who's checking onto the thread, at least in part, to just apologize for errors he missed...I can understand why Patrick's a little ticked. The guy's apologizing for the fuck-ups that made it through (and making it clear that he is, at least in part, to blame), and he's just getting criticized more because he drew attention to himself. If you can't empathize with that enough to, at the very least, understand where he's coming from, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, obviously you've got a right to be unhappy with a product, but those who worked pretty hard on the product also have a right to not be insulted square to their face about their contributions to it...or, at the least, have the same right to be "unhappy" about it back at'cha.

I didn't see his second post writing mine and edited accordingly (more or less).

And I don't blame him for any of this. He's a proof reader, those who are supposed to check for spelling, style, and catch errors the editor in charge and writers missed. Last line of defense, so to speak, not first line. Writing the book is not his job. That's where I see a problem, not in proofing.

That he did have to do as much as he did is a symptom of the problem I am angry about - that the writers and the person overseeing the process (editor? developer?) of writing this and integrating it into the line seem to have done a job that's not as good as it could be, to be polite.

[Tycho]

But as one of the people who worked on this...for FREE, mind you, taking time away from my kids that I'll never fucking get back

I am amazed that people don't learn from the past...
Don't work for free, it's just unprofessional! Especially if you employer has a history like CGL.

And since there is talk of putting these pdfs together for a book, everybody who wrote something should consider asking for more money, because it seems CGL is screwing you over again. Considering you get paid less for pdf-releases than books. Just saying...

cya
Tycho

[Demonseed Elite]

As a former writer, proofer, and playtester for SR, I have to side with Critias and Patrick on this one. There are books that are very poorly done and in those cases I don't hold back on my criticisms, but small errors get through and that just happens. Small errors don't ruin a book and shouldn't cast a black mark on the writers, developers, or proofers. I'm not saying reviewers shouldn't mention the little things, but there should be some perspective on it. And it should be noted that little mistakes get through all the time in much bigger publications with writers and editors that are paid a lot more money and the industry generally accepts that fact (and releases later editions).

[LurkerOutThere]

Great ghost on a pogo stick I wonder what happen if some of the people who spend all their time complaining about the game got together and wrote the perfect RPG.

I'm just going to ignore Hermit going forward, I havn't seen him write anything positive in months, if ever. There's just no value there any more.

On to actual productive parts of discussion. I haven't bought the book yet, i plan on it, but don't yet have the time. On the whole though I support any SSC style posting and more gun prons. Further I would rather a whole book of subpar guns then a book of subpar guns and one supergun, the system just doesn't get granular to go into the trade offs and personal preferences. Hell SR guns don't even model recoil differently outside of slapping recoil negation on a few things. Do you really want to track calibers?

[hermit]

As a former writer, proofer, and playtester for SR, I have to side with Critias and Patrick on this one. There are books that are very poorly done and in those cases I don't hold back on my criticisms, but small errors get through and that just happens. Small errors don't ruin a book and shouldn't cast a black mark on the writers, developers, or proofers. I'm not saying reviewers shouldn't mention the little things, but there should be some perspective on it. And it should be noted that little mistakes get through all the time in much bigger publications with writers and editors that are paid a lot more money and the industry generally accepts that fact (and releases later editions).

I know that. It's just, I don't see these issues as small. I know errors happen and some always get through in every published work. I noticed a couple things off in Blut und Spiele, for instance, and that didn't detract from me pretty much gushing over it. Same with SRM 04-00. It's not the case here.

I'm just going to ignore Hermit going forward, I havn't seen him write anything positive in months, if ever. There's just no value there any more.

Awwww. I'm hurt. Want cheese with your whine? (also, for the record: SRM 04-00 AAR, Spy Games).

[Yerameyahu]

Can I just say, thank god for 'backdoor' errata? Please, give us more such errata. Any medium is acceptable for fixed rules.

Ogre Hammer means ogre's hammer, to me. Possibly 'big hammer'. Who'd hammer an ogre? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) These are such ridiculous nitpicks.

[Malbur]

Ogre Hammer means ogre's hammer, to me. Possibly 'big hammer'. Who'd hammer an ogre? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) These are such ridiculous nitpicks.

I was going to say: I saw that more as "this is a hammer that ogres use. AKA: It will mess your day up." just going off the name. I did not purchase the book and as a result have no idea what its stats or anything are.

[Patrick Goodman]

Well there are some on this forum that is here specifically to blame Catalyst for anything, and they seemed to multiply once Catalyst hit a economic snag and had to get new content for parts of some books because of existing authors pulling their contributions. Basically, i has taken on the ugly rhetoric of US politics.

Oh, I know. I was one of those authors who held up Running Wild back in the day.

[hermit]

Oh, I know. I was one of those authors who held up Running Wild back in the day.

While not perfect, that book had more good than bad. The downward spiral really hit rock bottom with War.

[Patrick Goodman]

I am amazed that people don't learn from the past...
Don't work for free, it's just unprofessional! Especially if you employer has a history like CGL.

They do pay me. They pay me for writing. Actually, now I think about it, it's not altogether free. I do get product for my proofing gigs.

And I'm only ever going to say this once: You don't know me. You've never met me. You don't know my ethics or anything else about me beyond what you can glean here. You have exactly ZERO right to question my professionalism in any endeavor.

You ever want to question my integrity or professionalism, you better damn well have a leg to stand on. As it is, you don't, and I'll thank you to shut up about things you don't have a clue about.