Gun Heaven out now--details on 32 guns, some new, some classics., Because "too many guns" is a phrase without meaning to us Options

[redwulf25]

It just made sense to me to use our latest "gun porn" book as a handy place to clarify a previous gun ruling question. Some folks see it as a reason to bitch about backdoor errata, but I'd rather have people bitch about backdoor errata than continue to not be able to use a whole class of weapons. Damned if you do share the information, damned if you don't, apparently.

While I don't understand the issues people had with the battle rifle (ok,maybe the range issue but what was it going to use other than automatics? I don't recall any full auto weapons that use long arms) you're leaving out the option of actually publishing errata that one doesn't need to pay for. If a company isn't going to publish errata then they need to publish books that don't need errata.

[Squinky]

There are lots of folks working for "free". Lots of smart folks who love the product and have loved it forever. I call that a good thing.

Back to the pdf:

I simply love it. It fills a lot of gaps in weapon choices, and it is just a fun read. The art is perfect for the style, I totally dig the little pointers describing the guns anatomy.
You always have the one dude who wants to come to the table with a 1911 (me) and now there are stats for it.

My biggest problems with it is I want more. Also, a table in the back would rock, but life goes on.

[KarmaInferno]

One thing that jumps out at me, though, as a gun enthusiast - a number of the artwork pieces look nice but are clearly done by someone with limited knowledge of firearm mechanics. It's not a major issue, but the pedantic inner voice in my head is screaming "guns do not work that way!"

Maybe, maybe not, but the art for the new guns came about because a lot of weapon props were acquired, and art prepared from those props. I don't know how functional those prop weapons were, but I know that the art was taken from an actual physical thingie.

Well, I did specify that it wasn't a major issue.

There appears to be at least two sets of weapon artwork in the PDF. One set appears to be edited photos of weapons. These are more or less fine from a mechanical point of view.

The other is clearly much more a drawn style of artwork. (Some of it pretty darn outlandish looking - seems to suffer from "It's from the FUTURE! It must have weird bits all over it and have bizarre shapes!")

The second set is where I was seeing mechanical problems, ranging from "How the heck does the ammo actually get from the magazine to the chamber?" to "If the magazine is all the way in the back of the weapon, I mean ALL the way, where is the bolt?". Nevermind that twin magazines in line on in front of the other is just silly.

Again, this is more of a pet peeve. As far as game rules the PDF seems to be fine, and I'll probably use it for my home games.

As far as Paid vs Not Paid, it's an old adage. Unless you're doing it for charity, never do work for free that you could be getting paid for. It has nothing to do with the quality of your work or your professionalism. In fact, some folks will say that if you do it for free you are DEVALUING your own work - if you're good enough to get published, you're good enough to get paid for it, and if people get the idea that you'll accept less, they'll give you less.

That said, I have done published writing and artwork for free in the past, so clearly I don't completely believe in that old adage myself.




-k

[Critias]

Gotta love it. When proofreading lets through stuff like War!, folks pitch a fit and ragequit the game, insisting the current batch of "scabs" don't care about or understand Shadowrun and can't be bothered to edit documents. When freelancers step up to do extra proofreading and get more eyes on each outbound document, we get ridiculed and preached at for being idiots who work for free.

You dance with who brung ya. If the way we can get out Spy Games instead of War! is to take a more active role and "work for free," do you really blame us? Which would you prefer, we writers stubbornly refuse to communicate and coordinate with each other, don't check over one another's work, and let out slipshod product that's edited by folks with a whole ton of stuff on their plates? Because I, for one, would rather have my name on a product I've read over and am proud of, than the alternative. They can't all be solo products. When they're not, it's in our own best interest to work together, communicate, proofread for one another, and put out a book with the fewest errors we can.

If that makes us idiots for working for free, fine. I'd rather work for free than have my name on a shitty book, myself.

[hobgoblin]

While I don't understand the issues people had with the battle rifle (ok,maybe the range issue but what was it going to use other than automatics? I don't recall any full auto weapons that use long arms) you're leaving out the option of actually publishing errata that one doesn't need to pay for. If a company isn't going to publish errata then they need to publish books that don't need errata.

Usually a errata shows up near a new print run. And right now i think CGL is focusing on printing new books to ensure a positive revenue flow.

[redwulf25]

Usually a errata shows up near a new print run. And right now i think CGL is focusing on printing new books to ensure a positive revenue flow.

CGL needs to publish errata for the books that are already out before they publish more books that need errata.

[hermit]

What's more, they should crosscheck rules before making up new rules, and playtest rules they make.

Much of my current problems with their product seem to stem from the drive to publish fast, much and often to turn a quick buck, resulting in several products being released that just could use more polishing.

Yeah, I know, that's nagging again, and totally not positive ... but you know what? I wouldn't die if Gun Heaven had spent a few more weeks in the proofing and editing stage, because that'd mean most of the problems I have with it might have been caught.

[CanRay]

Who'd hammer an ogre?

Bubba the Love Troll, who else?

And you know he'll be hammerin' all night long, baby!

I simply love it. It fills a lot of gaps in weapon choices, and it is just a fun read. The art is perfect for the style, I totally dig the little pointers describing the guns anatomy.
You always have the one dude who wants to come to the table with a 1911 (me) and now there are stats for it.

My biggest problems with it is I want more. Also, a table in the back would rock, but life goes on.

I'm with Squinky on this. Especially as when I first tried to run the game someone wanted a Beretta M92, because that was his favorite pistol. (Me, I'm a John Browning fanboy, and grok the Colt M1911 and Browning M1935 "Hi-Power". Which is why one of my characters carries an Ultra-Power, BTW. And has a Titanium-Gold Alloy Plated 150th Anniversary Edition M1911A1 on his mantel.). It's actually the M1991 that there are stats for, but aside from some minor design changes to make it more ergonomic, it's a 1911.

Would I love more, hells yes! Vintage firearms are certainly still out there. (There are some militaries using the SMLE No. 4 as a main longarm after all, and that model going on 65-years old now! Older if you include the SMLE Mk.3/No.1!), and newer weapons are certainly always welcome. I liked the inclusion of "Designed For Civilian Home And Personal Defense" firearms, I just wish that the art for them had been... Well, yeah. But it's worth the US$8 I'll have to pay for later!

[hobgoblin]

CGL needs to publish errata for the books that are already out before they publish more books that need errata.

That heavily depend on their economics, sadly. Sale of new books provide direct revenue, while erratas at best provide indirect revenue via positive customer relations.

[hermit]

Quantity versus quality, short-term profit with long-term damage to the product versus long-term sustainable (but probably narrower) profit margins.

[naga-nuyen]

Patrick Goodman, Critias and anyone else that works on these great products thank you. For one thing it gives a little crunch if I want to add Grandpa Street Sam to my world. I am also glad to see clarification on the Battle rifles. Our large gaming group in Seattle is taking all these recent publications and really throwing them in the grinder; it has made our gaming world better with your contributions. Again thank you.

[Mäx]

That heavily depend on their economics, sadly. Sale of new books provide direct revenue, while erratas at best provide indirect revenue via positive customer relations.

Yeah, but it really wouldn't take longer then an hour to release errata for the most glaring problems, it's not like the erratas have to fix all the mistakes at once.
Seriously releasing a PDF titled WAR_errata_1.01 that says:
P.154 Battle Rifles
Add the following sentence to the description: “The Battle Rifle requires the Automatics skill to use effectively"
Should take at max 5 minutes

[CanRay]

I think there's more wrong with War! than just battle rifles. It'd take more than five minutes for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Even the PDFs have their issues (Remember the acceleration issue with This Old Drone?). But, well, let's get off that topic and complain about the new guns and how the old guns from 1st Edition were better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mäx]

I think there's more wrong with War! than just battle rifles. It'd take more than five minutes for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Thats why the file name had a version number 1.01 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And to complain about guns, i do have to question why anyone would ever take Steyr Minotaur Antimaterial
Rifle over a Barret 121, considering that it's not better in anyway and is more expensive.
Also the Ogre Hammer not having an internal smartlink while costing 38K is pretty sad.

On an other front, HK MP-7 equip with a Red Dot Sight is challenging P93 as my SMG of choice.

[CanRay]

And to complain about guns, i do have to question why anyone would ever take Steyr Minotaur Antimaterial Rifle over a Barret 121, considering that it's not better in anyway and is more expensive.

Marketing. Availability. Special deals with Steyr that includes their assault rifle line that Barret doesn't have (For Security/Government/Military contracts.). A hatred of Barret for some reason?

[Hida Tsuzua]

Also the Ogre Hammer not having an internal smartlink while costing 38K is pretty sad.

38k? Wow. That's pricey. It sounds like it also suffers from the Gauss Rifle Laser Sight syndrome as well.

[redwulf25]

That heavily depend on their economics, sadly. Sale of new books provide direct revenue, while erratas at best provide indirect revenue via positive customer relations.

And negative customer relations provide negative revenue when customers decide they've had enough of this shit and play something else where any errata are dealt with promptly instead of buying new books that increasingly screw up the system due to error that haven't been fixed for years. Hell, a lot of the needed errata is just laying around in German waiting for someone to translate it from what I understand.

Errata: Line 3 should read "due to errors that haven't been fixed for years.

[hobgoblin]

Yeah, but it really wouldn't take longer then an hour to release errata for the most glaring problems, it's not like the erratas have to fix all the mistakes at once.

Not sure about that. One may have to dig up the notes, or get hold of the person that wrote the chapter and try and figure out what the idea was. Then formulate a change that carries the idea across in a clear way. I got a book here that contains a chapter on the early days of M:tG, and it mentions a card that one player claimed gave him a instant win on playing. The creators go "not possible!" but then investigate the wording more carefully. I think the card have 3-4 revisions before they where reasonably sure the majority of players would get the intention of the card.

Sometimes it is straight forward, sometimes it is not. But all the time someone has to sit down and organize the corrections. As such, they are more likely to appear when there is a new print run to be done. Hell, the pdf covering the SR4 to SR4A changes is still "preliminary". Have there been new print runs of SR4A?

[hobgoblin]

And negative customer relations provide negative revenue when customers decide they've had enough of this shit and play something else where any errata are dealt with promptly instead of buying new books that increasingly screw up the system due to error that haven't been fixed for years. Hell, a lot of the needed errata is just laying around in German waiting for someone to translate it from what I understand.

Errata: Line 3 should read "due to errors that haven't been fixed for years.

Not sure about the german stuff. German editions have a history of adding and changing things for the hell of it.

[Mäx]

As such, they are more likely to appear when there is a new print run to be done.

Sadly even thats not happening, we still don't have an errata for RC, but as far as i have understood from few posters, there is a new printing of RC that has errata in it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

38k? Wow. That's pricey.

Well it does come with an internal 6/6/6/6 commlink.

[Yerameyahu]

In that case, too cheap! Hehe.

[KarmaInferno]

Gotta love it. When proofreading lets through stuff like War!, folks pitch a fit and ragequit the game, insisting the current batch of "scabs" don't care about or understand Shadowrun and can't be bothered to edit documents. When freelancers step up to do extra proofreading and get more eyes on each outbound document, we get ridiculed and preached at for being idiots who work for free.

Nobody's pitching a fit or ridiculing here. Seriously, ya'll need to take a step back an realize not everything is an attack. Folks might have criticisms about the product, but I don't see anyone earnestly attacking any writers or editors on a personal basis.

"Never work for free" is an old aphorism. I mean really old. It means, really, to know your own self-worth, and never let anyone take advantage of you by paying you less than you are worth. It's generally given as friendly advice, or in jest. I can't ever think when it would be used as an attack. Well, I recall a video of Harlan Ellison ranting on the subject pretty angrily, but he's known as a bit of an ass, so that might not be the best example.

It's also not always true, but it's not a bad thing to keep in mind. People often don't realize what they're worth, and accept less than they deserve.



-k

[Patrick Goodman]

Ogre Hammer means ogre's hammer, to me. Possibly 'big hammer'. Who'd hammer an ogre? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) These are such ridiculous nitpicks.

The intent was, in fact, "Geez, this is a big fucking gun!" It was orriginally a Trollhammer, but someone pointed out that there was already a motorcycle named that and the decision was thus made to change its moniker.

As I said elsewhere...what? Ogres don't use hammers?

[Patrick Goodman]

...you're leaving out the option of actually publishing errata that one doesn't need to pay for. If a company isn't going to publish errata then they need to publish books that don't need errata.

We're not leaving it out, we just haven't finished that battle. It's ongoing, I assure you.

[Udoshi]

Usually a errata shows up near a new print run. And right now i think CGL is focusing on printing new books to ensure a positive revenue flow.

Thats not right at all.

Augmentation errata exists.(1.32, the german guys have it. Even dumpshock has it leaked somewhere) Book was published in 2008, wasn't it?
RC errata exists. Adam was on the board a while ago, confirming it got sent off to the printers for the next printing.

It exists. Its out there. Catalyst is sitting on it. Pegasus has it in german. Even the printers have it.
And the customers don't. The books have been out for how long now? 5 years?


I don't even know whats going on. I'd -like- to, but I suspect the new management got off on the wrong foot during the coleman scandal, and a combination of dumpshock whiners driving the point home whenever they can, not trusting the old guard, and being busy making actual product(the quality of which is debatable), and hiring replacement staff are responsible for the current situation.

We're not leaving it out, we just haven't finished that battle. It's ongoing, I assure you.

What actually IS going on with that battle? If, you know, you're allowed/able/willing to say.